[3.5] Shield spike plus bashing enchantment?

[rezplz]

Under the heading for shield spikes, it says that it increases the damage as if it were one size category larger - so a large shield would go from 1d4 to 1d6.

The bashing enchantment says that it increases the damage of a shield by two size categories - from 1d4 to 1d8.

I was wondering that, if you put a bashing enchantment on a spiked shield, would it increase the damage by three size categories? Like, from 1d4 to 2d6?

[Deepblue706]

I believe so. In fact, I think builds that incorporate two-handing a shield exploit it rather often.

[rezplz]

That was, in fact, my plan. :) Use a heavy shield with spikes and bashing enchantment as the main weapon, and a shortsword or something for the off-hand. Or, hell, maybe a light shield with spikes and bashing enchantment. I know the shield bonuses wouldn't stack but it'd be cool.


Maybe I should add in the monkey grip feat, too.

[Keld Denar]

Unless you are stacking multiple size increases from multiple sources, your base weapon damage is such a small part of your overall damage. You get more out of your enhancement bonus, your Power Attack, your Str, your variable damage increases like Sneak Attack, moral bonuses, and a host of other factors that base weapon damage doesn't make a huge difference.

See this thread for more details. EDIT: Man, I was kinda mean in that thread...thats almost embarassing.

Really, the difference between 1d6 and 2d6 (3 size increases!) is only 3.5 damage per hit. Its just not really worth it. And a shield is only a 20 x2 critting weapon with no special abilities like reach, +disarm, tripable, or anything.

Its kinda a cool concept, but not really optimal.

[Cieyrin]

Make a Lion's Shield spiked and bashing and perhaps you'll start getting somewhere. There are a couple of nice feats you can do with shields as well, like Shield Charge and Shield Slam, which can make for an early kill if you can trip and daze the poor sod.

EDIT: If you want a strange thought, instead of making a +1 bashing shield, make a +5 shield that also functions as a +5 defending shield. That's +12 to AC on a heavy shield for 25,000 gp for the defense enhance and 72,000 gp for the 'offense' enhance, for a grand total of 97,000 gp. Looks pretty nice to me, for a shield, particularly if you can use the Fighter variant where instead of Tower Shield Proficiency, you get a free Exotic Shield Proficiency (since Tower shields are basically an exotic shield anyways) and use it on an extreme shield to get another point of AC out of it, without the tower shield cripple.

EDIT THE SECOND: Ninja'd by Shneeky.

[ericgrau]

FAQ says that bashing and shield spikes do stack. But I think shields are always treated as off-hand weapons, in which case you'd want a light shield to have a light off-hand weapon. Not sure you can do it as a main weapon rules-wise. And conceptually it's kinda silly, outside of a single comic book hero.

EDIT: I checked the FAQ. The FAQ says it's okay to shield bash with the main hand even though it's assumed that someone would want to use his off-hand in the rules. But I still think it's silly .

EDIT #2: Another semi-related interesting thing I noticed is that armor spikes can be used as an off-hand weapon even when your off-hand is occupied. So you can THF + armor spike = TWF. Talk about style options.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you put shield spikes on it, don't for get to make them +1 Defending, then have your local caster put GMW on them to bring them up to +5 Defending, then take all that bonus and apply it to your AC for an untyped +5 bonus to AC.

[Cieyrin]

If you put shield spikes on it, don't for get to make them +1 Defending, then have your local caster put GMW on them to bring them up to +5 Defending, then take all that bonus and apply it to your AC for an untyped +5 bonus to AC.

I'm not sure if you could strictly use the GMW bonus for purposes of the defending quality, really. It seems like it would use the actual bonus, not the temporary but you got me on that kind of rules adjudging.

@EricGrau's 2nd Edit: That's the Axe Spike feat, right there. Also without having to bother w/ TWF or penalizing the rest of your attacks, as long as you're fine w/ using a greataxe while doing so (I mean, it's a GREAT AXE, amirite? ).

[Indon]

FAQ says that bashing and shield spikes do stack. But I think shields are always treated as off-hand weapons, in which case you'd want a light shield to have a light off-hand weapon. Not sure you can do it as a main weapon rules-wise. And conceptually it's kinda silly, outside of a single comic book hero.

EDIT: I checked the FAQ. The FAQ says it's okay to shield bash with the main hand even though it's assumed that someone would want to use his off-hand in the rules. But I still think it's silly .

Okay, so you could wield a shield one size larger in two hands, and with Monkey Grip (because frankly, we've given up on straight optimization long ago for this build) you could wield a shield two sizes larger. Spiked, and with the Bashing enchantment, that's an effective total of +5 size increases.

From there, get a way to increase your character size to gain even more shieldpower.

Edit: Is that how it works in 3.5, come to think of it?

[rezplz]

Thanks for all the input, guys. Didn't realize someone had already brought that up. Looks like this build idea isn't completely optimized, but I still want to try it - except that now I just want to try it because it's silly.

I like silly characters.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Thanks for all the input, guys. Didn't realize someone had already brought that up. Looks like this build idea isn't completely optimized, but I still want to try it - except that now I just want to try it because it's silly.

I like silly characters.

Pixie Warlock with Eldritch Glaive?

Literally Tiny-size character. 10' energy blade of doom.

[rezplz]

Pixie Warlock with Eldritch Glaive?

Literally Tiny-size character. 10' energy blade of doom.

Hahah. I should do that. ;D Have you ever seen it done or was it just a random idea you thought of?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hahah. I should do that. ;D Have you ever seen it done or was it just a random idea you thought of?

Random idea I thought of. Maximize with Hellfire Warlock, one level dip in Binder for Naberous, and Legacy Champion to get more Hellfire Warlock dice.

[sofawall]

carnivore, over on Gleemax would almost always suggest a Pixie build for any situation (even Hulking Hurlers. Not optimal, but enough to 1-hit the Tarrasque.) Pixies are awesome.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If going TWF with a shield, look at Agile Shield Fighter from PHBII. Let's you TWF with fewer penalties. Got a few prereq's that may be hard to fit in, but better than normal TWF.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

I did this once. To my knowledge shield bashing is always off hand.
I built a TWFer with a scimitar and a light spiked bashing shield. I took improved shield bash and all the good feats. It was pretty fun, but it's not the best way to get damage out of a TWFer.

It's also definitely not silly. Anyone remember a Spartan shield? Go watch Deadliest Warrior and tell me a person using a shield as a weapon is silly.

Unless you are stacking multiple size increases from multiple sources, your base weapon damage is such a small part of your overall damage. You get more out of your enhancement bonus, your Power Attack, your Str, your variable damage increases like Sneak Attack, moral bonuses, and a host of other factors that base weapon damage doesn't make a huge difference.

See this thread for more details. EDIT: Man, I was kinda mean in that thread...thats almost embarassing.

Really, the difference between 1d6 and 2d6 (3 size increases!) is only 3.5 damage per hit. Its just not really worth it. And a shield is only a 20 x2 critting weapon with no special abilities like reach, +disarm, tripable, or anything.

Its kinda a cool concept, but not really optimal.

It's the difference between 3.5 damage and 7 damage on average. Doubling your average output is pretty good if you're not looking for super optimum win at everything forever builds.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

It's the difference between 3.5 damage and 7 damage on average. Doubling your average output is pretty good if you're not looking for super optimum win at everything forever builds.

Damage at level, we'll say, 9. 1 person wields a +1 Spiked Shield of Bashing in his off-hand. The other wields a +1 Flaming short sword in his off-hand.
Person 1: 2d6(weapon)+1(enhance)+3(str)
Person 2: 1d6(weapon)+1(enhance)+3(str)+1d6(Flaming)

Same difference. Except that the Short Sword can be further enchanted, while the 20th level shield is still only dealing 2d6. And that damage is far more likely to be +7d6(SA)+9(Craven) or something on a TWF build(at 9), meaning the damage boost from Bashing is far less important, and Flaming is likely to be replaced by a good enhancement.

[ericgrau]

It's also definitely not silly. Anyone remember a Spartan shield? Go watch Deadliest Warrior and tell me a person using a shield as a weapon is silly.

I was saying a shield in the main hand would be silly, but according to the FAQ it's rules legal. It'd be nice to see the off-hand shield used more IMO. It's the main hand I'm not too crazy about. But if it provides humor to the OP's game then I guess it's worth it.

[Deepblue706]

That was, in fact, my plan. :) Use a heavy shield with spikes and bashing enchantment as the main weapon, and a shortsword or something for the off-hand. Or, hell, maybe a light shield with spikes and bashing enchantment. I know the shield bonuses wouldn't stack but it'd be cool.


Maybe I should add in the monkey grip feat, too.

No, I meant wielding it with Two Hands, as one would a Greatsword or Halberd. Getting 2:1 ratio on power attack, and the like, while still getting a shield bonus via Improved Shield Bash.

[Keld Denar]

It's the difference between 3.5 damage and 7 damage on average. Doubling your average output is pretty good if you're not looking for super optimum win at everything forever builds.

Ah, but the difference between 50 damage per hit and 53.5 damage per hit isn't really that much. Sure, it IS more, but there are other things that contribute to overall damage...like crit range, reach, and special features like whether or not you can trip with it, and what the base damage type is. A Greatclub is strictly inferior to a Greatsword damagewise, until you buff the Greatclub with Greater Mighty Wallop and Spikes and Impact, while the Greatsword can only benefit from Keen Edge.

The game isn't a vacuum. Weapon choices are important for more than just base damage...especially when that base damage consitutes such a small percentage of the actual damage done.

Thats what the guy in the link I posted couldn't get past. He couldn't get over that a magical item was better than a similar nonmagical item...just because its magical. He was only looking at base numbers, neglecting cost, usability, buffability, and a host of other factors.

And sofawall, I hoped linking that wouldn't get anyone else in trouble...my bad bro! <3

[Admiral Squish]

That was, in fact, my plan. :) Use a heavy shield with spikes and bashing enchantment as the main weapon, and a shortsword or something for the off-hand. Or, hell, maybe a light shield with spikes and bashing enchantment. I know the shield bonuses wouldn't stack but it'd be cool.


Maybe I should add in the monkey grip feat, too.

Ahem. *points*

Made for just such circumstances. Something of a shameless plug, I admit.

[Gan The Grey]

Why do I get the strange feeling like this is an underhanded attempt by Rezplz to resurrect a recently locked thread?

I just saw the previous thread high on the forum list, as someone had very recently tried to resurrect it, then a modulator comes in, locks it out, says something about 'no thread necromancy'.

Bout an hour later, we got this newly joined 'Rezplz' (joined in july) asking about bashing shields and such. His name is, incidently, a play off of what the moderator said when he locked out the previous thread.

Could this be coincidence? Am I seeing conspiracy where there is no to be found?

YOU DECIDE!!!!!

[rezplz]

Ah, but the difference between 50 damage per hit and 53.5 damage per hit isn't really that much. Sure, it IS more, but there are other things that contribute to overall damage...like crit range, reach, and special features like whether or not you can trip with it, and what the base damage type is. A Greatclub is strictly inferior to a Greatsword damagewise, until you buff the Greatclub with Greater Mighty Wallop and Spikes and Impact, while the Greatsword can only benefit from Keen Edge.

The game isn't a vacuum. Weapon choices are important for more than just base damage...especially when that base damage consitutes such a small percentage of the actual damage done.

Thats what the guy in the link I posted couldn't get past. He couldn't get over that a magical item was better than a similar nonmagical item...just because its magical. He was only looking at base numbers, neglecting cost, usability, buffability, and a host of other factors.

And sofawall, I hoped linking that wouldn't get anyone else in trouble...my bad bro! <3

Yeah, I was reading the last thread about this that you had told me about, and you had made a similar point there. My question though, is how do you get 50 or more damage with a one-handed weapon? It boggles my mind. It might just be that 10th is the highest level I've ever played at, but that just seems like a lot of damage to me.

Admiral Squish: ;D I was sold on this home-brew class the moment I saw that you could use the AC from two shields. This is relevant to my interests. :) Especially since I've always wanted to try using two shields, even if it wasn't effective.

Gan The Grey: Dude, don't be an ass. I admit I'm new and maybe I didn't look back far enough in the forum so I didn't see the other thread, but come on. If you read the posts here you could have at least seen that I'm not some raging douche like the guy in the thread I supposedly "rezzed". Speaking of rezzing, rez-plz is just an online name I use, making fun of myself since I die in MMORPGs and DnD all the time. Seriously, I went through 3 wizards in one scenario once.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

Ah, but the difference between 50 damage per hit and 53.5 damage per hit isn't really that much. Sure, it IS more, but there are other things that contribute to overall damage...like crit range, reach, and special features like whether or not you can trip with it, and what the base damage type is. A Greatclub is strictly inferior to a Greatsword damagewise, until you buff the Greatclub with Greater Mighty Wallop and Spikes and Impact, while the Greatsword can only benefit from Keen Edge.

The game isn't a vacuum. Weapon choices are important for more than just base damage...especially when that base damage consitutes such a small percentage of the actual damage done.

Thats what the guy in the link I posted couldn't get past. He couldn't get over that a magical item was better than a similar nonmagical item...just because its magical. He was only looking at base numbers, neglecting cost, usability, buffability, and a host of other factors.

And sofawall, I hoped linking that wouldn't get anyone else in trouble...my bad bro! <3

Makes sense. But the point is, when it's 3 damage on average, or seven, why not go for the seven? It's a bit different in the case of 50 and 53. In the latter case it wouldn't be a noticeable difference, but in the former, it is literally double. When it comes to weapons, it shouldn't be about which is inherently better, unless of course power gaming, optimizing, or munchkining are really the focus. And even sometimes in a normal game it's not a good idea. But in many cases it's a pretty cool idea, especially if you don't care about that +3 flaming rapier.
But I agree, it's not the best of ideas unless paired with an optimum shielding build, in which I can't for the life of me think of one beyond Bloodstorm Blade.

[Gan The Grey]

Rezzy, buddy, PAL! No need to get hateful. Besides, defensiveness only adds more fuel to the fire of conspiracy. I'da been done with the whole conspiracy thing had you just laughed and said "Wow, crzy coincidence!"

But, you didn't. You took a light-hearted attempt at playfulness and choose to view it as a vicious attack. Feeling guilty?

As it sits, I thought it was a funny coincidence, but NOW... Is Rezplz actually Simanos' attempt at a more pleasant persona? How bout some more weight to this argument.

Simanos is BANNED! Seems like the only way he (or you hmmm) is getting back on the forum is to create a new moniker!

dun Dun DUN! LET THE CONSPIRACY TRAIN KEEP ON ROLLIN'!!!!!

[rezplz]

Rezzy, buddy, PAL! No need to get hateful. Besides, defensiveness only adds more fuel to the fire of conspiracy. I'da been done with the whole conspiracy thing had you just laughed and said "Wow, crzy coincidence!"

But, you didn't. You took a light-hearted attempt at playfulness and choose to view it as a vicious attack. Feeling guilty?

As it sits, I thought it was a funny coincidence, but NOW... Is Rezplz actually Simanos' attempt at a more pleasant persona? How bout some more weight to this argument.

Simanos is BANNED! Seems like the only way he (or you hmmm) is getting back on the forum is to create a new moniker!

dun Dun DUN! LET THE CONSPIRACY TRAIN KEEP ON ROLLIN'!!!!!

You sir, frighten me.

And I've always had a hard time telling if someone's being serious or not irl, let alone on a forum where there is no body language or anything like that. D:


so, um, I'm sorry?

[Gan The Grey]

Hey, don't get me wrong. I only see goodness coming from this situation, either way.

1. If you are the same person, I like you better this way. Don't change a thing.

2. If you aren't the same person...I'm sorry for the comparison. Anytime we lose an arrogant, self-righteous, ignorant, stubborn douche and gain, well, someone that isn't any of those things, the forums are better for it.

Oh, and BTW, blatantly calling someone an 'ass' when you can't be sure if they're playing or not isn't so wise. If you can't be sure of my intentions, why use words that ARE 100% rude. That's like slapping someone because they pretended to hit you. Doesn't add up.

[rezplz]

Now that I look back on it, it is pretty easy to see how someone could think that I'm the same person. Never thought that my username would be used against me, lol. ;P

And you have a point with the 'ass' thing. I'm just used to being around people where it doesn't have as big of an impact, and people don't care. I sometimes forget that I can't be rude to everyone. Sorry about that.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yeah, I was reading the last thread about this that you had told me about, and you had made a similar point there. My question though, is how do you get 50 or more damage with a one-handed weapon? It boggles my mind. It might just be that 10th is the highest level I've ever played at, but that just seems like a lot of damage to me.

Not too difficult, actually.

Power attack, leap attack, shock trooper. Even by level ten, you're going to be averaging around 50 damage per hit. Even with a one handed weapon.

The real downside of the shield-basher is that with dancing shields, you can have your cake, and still be wielding a two-handed weapon for massive increases in damage output.

[Gan The Grey]

Beh, you aren't hurting my feelings. I gotta heart made of solid darkwood.

Fantastic job of defusing the situation by the way. Admitting the connection and ignoring my blatant attempt to inspire a flamewar with my long-winded put down of Simanos has totally won points in your favor. If you were just a new name for an old user, I would have expected you to go all HULK SMASH on me. But you didn't. And the world is a better place for it.

I'm beginning to think my conspiracy theory is just that...a theory...

Either way...touche sir. Tou-f*****g-che.