Why Do Epic Feats Suck?

[Mongoose87]

Seriously, I know the Epic Level Handbook was 3.0, but even looking through the SRD, I find that I am seriously pressed to find anything particularly special about most Epic feats. I mean, how much is DR 3/- going to do me when I'm taking fifty damage from one attack?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Epic Spellcasting makes up for it.

[Mongoose87]

Not an option for many classes.

[Draz74]

Because the people who designed the Epic rules hadn't actually played high-level non-Epic games.

[Nai_Calus]

Epic Spellcasting makes up for it.

...You're joking, right?

I mean yes I know 3.x is the god-awful edition of 'Fighters suck forever period and get no nice things ever', but seriously? Epic spellcasting for spellcasters makes up for everyone else getting garbage?

Lawl.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

...You're joking, right?

We have a winner.

[Milskidasith]

Automatic Quicken Spell is a useful investment if you can spare three feats on it. But yeah, most epic feats seem to be pretty meh.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'd say the problem is likely to be miscalculating things due to other Editions (eg: I remember reading somewhere that the Weapon Focus feat tree was meant to mimic Weapon Specializations in earlier editions, and WotC assumed everyone would use Blaster Arcanists due to that tactic being more practical in earlier editions thanks to lower HPs and other spells having more drawbacks). I'm not that familiar with Epic Levels but I think the main issue is with the that that the high DCs to use more powerful spells was possibly seen as a balancing factor, dispite things like items which can grant skill check bonuses.

[Gorgondantess]

Yep. Once again, casters get the good stuff.

[Doc Roc]

Uh. Take spell stowaway timestop unless you love dying.

[Frosty]

Do any groups here actually USE epic rules as-is? I woul dmake up my OWN epic rules TBH.

[Tempest Fennac]

I've never used them to be honest (looking over the Epic spells put me off the idea of using them).

[Mongoose87]

Uh. Take spell stowaway timestop unless you love dying.

I'm not an arcane spellcaster?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Epic Feats suck because WotC hates non-prepared spellcasters.

[PId6]

Well, if we're going to talk about what sucks, let me nominate Salient Divine Abilities. Most of them just seem completely pointless.

Divine Paladin: I get a slightly better anti-fear aura and a slightly more powerful smite, great. Divine Celerity: I can act as if hasted for 1 to 20 minutes a day, wow. Battlesense: I can't be flanked, as if that matters at all to a powerful deity like me. Free Move: I can move once per round as a free action... awesome, right? Speak with Creatures: ugh.

On the other hand, some abilities are just so obviously infinitely better. Alter Reality: free Greater Wish. Life and Death: instantly kill a mortal across all boundaries no save no resurrection. Divine Spellcasting: it's spellcasting. Why would any deity take any of the utter crap "I'm slightly better than a mortal (or not)" abilities when they have access to these?

Combine this with epic feats and there's a clear and obvious trend here.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, there are a couple that... aren't bad.

Dire Charge... it's Pounce... only epic. If Complete Champion hadn't made that a 1st level ACF, it would be pretty cool.

Distant Shot... can be abused with Hulking Hurler stuff, or as was mentioned in a previous thread, can be used in combination with Bloodstorm Blade to hit every start in line of sight... in six seconds.

Epic Dodge... get out of death free card?

Exceptional Deflection... good with Infinite Deflection to keep Orb-wizards from killing you. In fact, these two feats plus AMF make you surprisingly difficult to kill... until the wizard in question MDK's the AMF. With Reflect Arrow, you get to return the metamagic'd-from-hades Orb of Sound back to sender, postage due.

Spellcasting Harrier... if only a melee had a chance of being able to threaten an epic caster, it might do some good

but yea... mostly they suck

[tyckspoon]

I'm not that familiar with Epic Levels but I think the main issue is with the that that the high DCs to use more powerful spells was possibly seen as a balancing factor, dispite things like items which can grant skill check bonuses.

I don't think the Epic Spell rules were written with any sort of balance in mind at all. Let's start from the generally-accepted premise that whoever wrote the books wanted Wizards to act as blasters with support and field control as secondary influences at best. The spell seed you would turn to for blasting would be Energy, right? And the sample Epic blast is Hellball. Now, if you look at Hellball, the only thing you should be thinking is "Why the hell would anybody ever want to develop and cast this?" It would be perfectly reasonable as a researched 9th level spell. It is pointless as an Epic spell; by the time you can reliably hit DC 90 to cast, nothing you seriously need to fight will care about being hit by a Hellball. Or take the Destroy seed, which makes you burn huge amounts of your Spellcraft budget just to get the same damage you can get from Disintegrate. And its benefit is.. longer range and not having to make that touch attack. And let's not forget that *every* combat application of an Epic spell is boned from the start, because it takes 25 extra Spellcraft just to make it a 1-action casting time. Yes, you now have to pay dearly for the ability to cast a spell in the same amount of time you have been casting spells all the rest of your career.

Epic buff spells, on the other hand, work wonderfully. Straightforward and inexpensive applications of the Fortify and Armor seeds can increase almost any relevant number on a character sheet by about a dozen points with a duration of around a week or more. Reflect can automatically defend you against the first ten or so melee or ranged attacks you experience each day, and as an extra benefit your attacker hits himself with them. Epic Spellcasting almost forces a character into entry-level Batmannery if he wasn't there before, simply because those are the only spells that can be developed and cast with any useful effect for an economically viable cost.

[Tempest Fennac]

That could also suggest that the developers thought that blasting would be so powerful that it would need to be weaker at Epic level.

[PId6]

Well, there are a couple that... aren't bad.

Dire Charge... it's Pounce... only epic. If Complete Champion hadn't made that a 1st level ACF, it would be pretty cool.

Distant Shot... can be abused with Hulking Hurler stuff, or as was mentioned in a previous thread, can be used in combination with Bloodstorm Blade to hit every start in line of sight... in six seconds.

Epic Dodge... get out of death free card?

Exceptional Deflection... good with Infinite Deflection to keep Orb-wizards from killing you. In fact, these two feats plus AMF make you surprisingly difficult to kill... until the wizard in question MDK's the AMF. With Reflect Arrow, you get to return the metamagic'd-from-hades Orb of Sound back to sender, postage due.

Spellcasting Harrier... if only a melee had a chance of being able to threaten an epic caster, it might do some good

but yea... mostly they suck

Spellcasting Harrier is almost exactly the same as the non-epic Mage Slayer feat from Complete Arcane. Dire Charge can be replicated by a 2nd level power from the psychic warrior, only without the limitation of first round of combat. Distant Shot is fairly useless depending on how you read it (and Hulking Hurler can be abused much easier without this). Epic Dodge only works for one attack (when enemies are making 5 or more in a full-attack) and sorcerers can do it better with a 2nd level spell Wings of Cover. Exceptional Deflection is just a more roundabout version of Ray Deflection, a 4th level sor/wiz spell.

Really, most epic feats for noncasters are just crappier versions of spells. The only epic feats I would ever even consider taking are:

Automatic Quicken Spell
Epic Leadership
Legendary Commander (maybe, only with Epic Spellcasting)
Enhance Spell (maybe, at very very high levels)
Epic Spellcasting (always)
Ignore Material Components (solves annoyances, usually not worth it though)
Improved Heightened Spell
Improved Metamagic (x2 or x3)
Improved Spell Capacity (x100)
Intensify Spell (maybe, at very very high levels)
Multispell (x1000)
Permanent Emanation
Spell Stowaway (just for Time Stop)

Yeah, so as you can obviously see, all of these but the leadership feats have to do with spellcasting, and the leadership feats are only for the sake of Epic Spellcasting anyway. Pretty much every other epic feat is not worth it.

[Nai_Calus]

PF: Oh, good. I was hoping.

PId6: My favourite 'what the frak?!' moment in Deities and Demigods is that one of Corellon's frakkin' SDAs allows him to use his DEX modifier for attacking with a longsword. No seriously what.

Even more hilariously, other than Corellon's unique SDA, you couldn't get weapon finesse on a Longsword ever. Even the Champion of Corellon Larethian PrC still wouldn't let you use the quintessential elven melee weapon with Weapon Finesse. Time to bust out the Elven Thinblade or better yet the Elven Courtblade. *facepalm*

(I'm reminded of the worst PrC I've ever seen, from some Dragon issue or other. Mystic Keeper of Corellon Larethian. Cleric, 5/10 spellcasting advancement so it blows chunks. It has Weapon Finesse among other things as a pre-req, but all the class features require you to be holding a longsword(They also all suck). The class of course does not give you the ability to *use* your Weapon Finesse on your longsword. Deeeeerp.)

[Kaiyanwang]

I speak for my personal experience (I DMed an epic campaing, 1-40 levels, 5 years of gaming 1-2 week).

As far as I can tell, yes, there are good and crappy Epic Feats, but there are more good than you can think.

The Devastating Critical - Overwhelming Critical line is good. Works wonderfully. Trust me, sometimes you surround the meleer with hordes of demons, and wipes them all with damages + criticals + epic weapons procs.

The exceptional deflection line is veeery good. An Epic Favored Soul, Warblade or Fighter can use it without IUS with the ELH web enhancement.

Monk ones are good. Can happen in epic you take 4 MDJ in a round an the monk has a vorpal weapon and infinite deflection anyway (assumin he hits )

Dire Charge was great when we havn't so many way to pounce.

Wildshape feats can be outrageously good. No 25 HD but druid level cap. And Magical Beast Wildshape is way too good.

Never seen automatic-something-spell. But spell capacity and improved metamagic are, again, way too good. I've seen used them with incantatrix. Ouch.

Armor Skin and DR one are not good. Never seen a player take them, but I guess that if one start to stack DR x/- from many stackable sources.. Dunno.

The rogue ones are veeery good. Reflexes for Fort and Will 1/round? Yes, Thanks. And the "avoid a blow 1/round" is veery good too.


Of course, there are crappy ones, and not only for the caster > melee thing: even feats of the same "category": Epic Weapon Rend is faar inferior to Epic TWF.

A lot of them (like the ones to penetrate DR) are good only for certain kind of campaing or if you want to save slot on the weapon.

The "Legendary" ones are like Endurance: not bad, but think twice before use a precious feat slot.

Epic spellcasting, you hav or to ban it, or to tweak it. I allowed special rules of XP reagents to allow my players the spells of their dreams. Another way to go around it is rituals.

What tickspoon said about buffs > nuke, true. SO true.

As a general rule, I've seen my player take few of them, and than "combo" with the non epic ones

Example: Rogue: Staggering Strike + Epic Dodge to keep at bay a Big Smashing Demon.


EDIT: I banned Spell Storaway and Permanent Emanation for campaign inherent combos. If you built a dragon, PLEASE at least consider the former.

[Eldritch_Ent]

There's always fun to be had making a dragonwrought fighter Kobold, and then using your spare feats (since the fighter gets enough to spend on fighter-related feats from being, well, a fighter) on epic feats.

Sure you have to use small-class weapons, but it's so awesome it helps take the edge off of a fighter's naturally suckyness.

[Flickerdart]

Small size, -6 STR, DEX and CON in exchange for Epic fighter feats? Sounds fair.

[Fishy]

Would Epic Spellcasting be any good in a game where that was the spellcasting mechanic? As in, everyone has it, and knows a seed or two?

[Flickerdart]

Would Epic Spellcasting be any good in a game where that was the spellcasting mechanic? As in, everyone has it, and knows a seed or two?

No, because then D&D would play out like an RTS free-for-all: the first person to chain-gate the most solars and develop the "I win" spell wins.

[ZeroNumerous]

No, because then D&D would play out like an RTS free-for-all: the first person to chain-gate the most solars and develop the "I win" spell wins.

Actually, I think it has some merit. I mean, you'd have to do away with a large amount of crap but overall it would curb spellcaster power significantly(casting spells as standard actions would be ludicrously inefficient). After all, the only thing left to utilizing in combat would be buffs, and you can hand those out to everyone rather than horde them for yourself.

[kamikasei]

Would Epic Spellcasting be any good in a game where that was the spellcasting mechanic? As in, everyone has it, and knows a seed or two?

I'm pretty sure there exist systems like that (= "you make spells up based on specific elements and modifying factors, then make a skill check to cast them") in other games, but adapting actual 3e epic casting into something similar would pretty much amount to designing an entirely new system with some shared elements.

(This may just be my brain throwing Slayers d20 and Mage into a blender together, though.)

[T.G. Oskar]

Well, if we're going to talk about what sucks, let me nominate Salient Divine Abilities. Most of them just seem completely pointless.

Divine Celerity: I can act as if hasted for 1 to 20 minutes a day, wow.

Considering that was a 3.0 book, it's the rough equivalent of "act as if buffed with Celerity or its lesser version for 1 to 20 rounds, plus a free +4 untyped bonus...and the ability to Jump better.

No, seriously. You'd take Divine Celerity just for the partial action (which means either a move or a standard action, which means you could do a standard action and a full-round action, or a move action plus a full round action.

It's just that this new Haste made the divine ability change a bit. But if you notice the name of the spell.

Oh, did I forget that in such case, you wouldn't get dazed as a result? That would make a deity laugh at a Wizard who has to find a way to both cast Greater Celerity and find a way not to get dazed for that.

Then again, we all know what a Wizard does with that Greater Celerity spell...starts with "T" and ends with "ime Stop". With a side order of Extend Spell.

Free Move: I can move once per round as a free action... awesome, right?

Well, there's a race that would benefit from this at the very first level *coughcoughMonkcoughcough* So a deity that exemplifies such profession *coughcoughZuokenhackwheeze* may already have such an ability.

Of course, it's stupid when you can do something similar, just with a swift action rather than a free action, with 2nd level psionic powers and Hustle, so... In either case, any person crazy enough to level the already mentioned profession to 20 levels would quite enough choose this one. And perhaps...say, Alter Reality or something ;)

Though, you can find some uses for it. I mean...martial adepts that love the TSS routine will love it, as well as TWF rogues and basically TWFers.

[PId6]

Considering that was a 3.0 book, it's the rough equivalent of "act as if buffed with Celerity or its lesser version for 1 to 20 rounds, plus a free +4 untyped bonus...and the ability to Jump better.

No, seriously. You'd take Divine Celerity just for the partial action (which means either a move or a standard action, which means you could do a standard action and a full-round action, or a move action plus a full round action.

It's just that this new Haste made the divine ability change a bit. But if you notice the name of the spell.

Wasn't 3.0 Haste still just a 3rd level spell? So a level 20 caster with Extended Extended Extended Extended Extended Extended Haste would have 14 or 128 minutes of Haste for a 9th level slot, depending on how you stack Extends. And I'm sure there were probably plenty of ways to get full-day Haste in 3.0 as well, so it really defeats the point of having limited Haste as a SDA. If it were permanent Haste, that'd be slightly different, but it's not.

Then again, we all know what a Wizard does with that Greater Celerity spell...starts with "T" and ends with "ime Stop". With a side order of Extend Spell.

Or better yet Maximize Spell. But who needs Greater Celerity? No point spending an 8th level slot when you can do just as well with 4th.

Though, you can find some uses for it. I mean...martial adepts that love the TSS routine will love it, as well as TWF rogues and basically TWFers.

It can be useful, possibly as an epic feat, but as a SDA... no. Hey, here's an idea, let's take all the crappy SDAs and convert them to epic feats! Most of them are bad for SDAs but as epic feats, they're much better.

Also, I believe if it were converted to 3.5, it might be changed to swift action instead of free. It is a free action to be used once per round, so it has all of the markings of a swift action.

[Dhavaer]

Wasn't 3.0 Haste still just a 3rd level spell?

Yes, but a hugely overpowered 3rd level spell. It effectively let you spontaneously Quicken 1 spell/caster level, without using up the 1/round limit on Quickened spells or increasing the spell level, as well as giving you some other minor buffs.