A question regarding non-associated levels.

[Jergmo]

A frost giant seems pretty well geared towards a martial class. 14 racial HD, +18 Str, -2 Dex, +10 Con, +4 Wis. A Jarl is typically a level 8 Blackguard (CR 17). The organization often includes clerics and sorcerers, however, apart from the cleric (and with the lesser spellcasting progression, it doesn't seem optimal), they'd kinda suck at a 1:1 ratio for level/CR. However, if they're non-associated, a level 14 frost giant cleric or sorcerer would be a mere CR 16. So, what's the deal? Are they stuck with having sub-optimal spellcasting, or is it more reasonable that there is a point where the levels are no longer non-associated (say, class levels equal to half racial HD). That would make the same level 14 cleric or sorcerer CR 19; I'm unsure if that's good enough, but it is certainly more reasonable. Opinions on this? Am I underestimating a level 8 frost giant cleric or sorcerer compared to a blackguard or fighter?

[Yora]

It gets worse when you reach the point where the class levels exceed the CR.

[Flickerdart]

The CR system is broken, and non-associated levels only help to break it further. You can send some Dragons with Wizard levels (non-associated, unlike Sorcerer) that are CR = party level, but have as many Wizard levels as the party plus are Dragons.
The nice thing is that you can swipe any cheese build your players have and bring it up a notch by putting it on a mighty beastie.

[Doc Roc]

Never use unassociated class levels unless you like numbers that don't make any sense.

[AslanCross]

The core Monster Manual is not very helpful in this matter, but MM5 gives a rather good guideline in at least one monster entry. The Elemental Mage (elementally-themed ogre mage variants) is a giant type. ANY class that improves BAB by 3/4 (cleric progression) and has at least d8 hit dice (cleric hit dice) is considered associated. If you use the same guideline for the Frost giant, cleric would be considered associated.

Now it all goes to hell when you use sorcerer or wizard levels. A CR 16 Frost giant sorcerer would have 14 class levels. You'd better make sure that your PCs have an edge over that.

The organization entry does say that the Frost Giant Sorcerers in tribes would only be 6th-7th level. That's only 3rd level spells and makes for a CR 12 monster. Not much, really, because by the time you would think of throwing a tribe of Frost Giants at PCs, they'd probably have at least 5th-level spells/10th level casters.

[RS14]

It gets worse when you reach the point where the class levels exceed the CR.

The CR system works better when used with a dose of common sense. When you exceed the CR, start counting class levels as associated.

[Eldariel]

It does make sense to a degree, but becomes a problem with higher HDs (the exact guideline is once non-associated class levels exceed HD, they are considered associated). Basically, it works out fine for Minotaurs or Ogres or such; an Ogre Sorcerer 4 is in no ways CR 7, but he does make for a fine CR 5 encounter though.

The problems start to mount up when you have creatures with a couple dozen HDs and thus they effectively have CR equal to Human Caster of equivalent level. Now, note this: They don't have much better offense than equivalent Human Caster. Their advantage is their durability, and the superchargedness of the Save DCs any HD-derived abilities they have. But they're beatable; just they can take more damage and have higher saves.


This is actually a very good thing with regards to BBEGs since they don't have much more offense than the PCs allowing the party to not-die immediately, but they do have much higher hardiness making for longer, more epic fights.

Non-associated levels work...to a degree. You'll have to judge for yourself at what point they are too strong (usually when they have higher level class abilities than the PCs), but generally it's workable.

[Kaiyanwang]

This is actually a very good thing with regards to BBEGs since they don't have much more offense than the PCs allowing the party to not-die immediately, but they do have much higher hardiness making for longer, more epic fights.

Completely second this. if well managed, NALs just improve your game.

Or, as said, you can use them to take your vendetta on munchkin players.