Making the most of spring attack

[Myrmex]

Are there anyways of making spring attack work? Unless you can put difficult terrain or an obstacle in your way with it, most of the time your maneuverability is negated with a simple charge. Classes that also benefit the most from spring attack (no or light armor, small HD) also tend to rely heavier on bonus damage that works best with full attacks, which means using all those attacks means you give up the maneuverability (see: monk).

So far, all I can really see is Swiftblade, giving you two attacks (and 3.0 haste) and enough spells to make up for damage differences.

[Darrin]

Are there anyways of making spring attack work?

The best way to make Spring Attack work is to not take it, take Travel Devotion instead.

Beyond that, there are many, many, many ways to get extra movement in addition to a full attack. Check Person_Man's list of "Ways to get Pounce or Free Movement."

[AstralFire]

I think the idea behind Spring Attack was to make it so that you couldn't be full attacked, not so that you couldn't be attacked at all. This, of course, has issues with the number of monsters that get pounce and the proliferation of the move later in 3.5.

For starters, I think a Spring Attack should give you double move, like a charge.

[Myrmex]

I think the idea behind Spring Attack was to make it so that you couldn't be full attacked, not so that you couldn't be attacked at all. This, of course, has issues with the number of monsters that get pounce and the proliferation of the move later in 3.5.

For starters, I think a Spring Attack should give you double move, like a charge.

But getting charged by a big nasty is going to hurt WAY more than your measly spring-poke. At the very least, they get +4 damage from the +2 to attack they get, and the -2 AC they get is less important since as a squishy character, you're likely to have a less than full BAB and no power attack.

The best way to make Sneak Attack work is to not take it, take Travel Devotion instead.

Beyond that, there are many, many, many ways to get extra movement in addition to a full attack. Check Person_Man's list of "Ways to get Pounce or Free Movement."

That's... not very helpful.

[AstralFire]

But getting charged by a big nasty is going to hurt WAY more than your measly spring-poke. At the very least, they get +4 damage from the +2 to attack they get, and the -2 AC they get is less important since as a squishy character, you're likely to have a less than full BAB and no power attack.

Oh, I fully agree. Spring Attack sucking was actually the reason I gravitated to monk when I was brand new to the game; I assumed being able to have 90 foot movement speed would fix everything!

...Yeah.

So not to derail this thread, moving on. I would, for starters, put in a double move houserule for it. It really needs it.

Now, moving beyond Homebrew? There's a first level Shadow Hand Stance which is really good for this sort of thing - 20% concealment whenever you move. Doesn't help with the damage, but every way you make yourself a less attractive target to strike back is nice.

[Fax Celestis]

The best way to make Spring Attack worth it is to take MOAR FEATZ. Unfortunately. But if you take Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz from PHB-II, you can essentially get a full-attack with a spring attack. Mix with skirmish for results ranging from "hey I can do things in combat" to "khaaaaaaan he has immunity to precision damage I am hosed". Or mix with knight for "come and get me" lulz.

[Myrmex]

Does knight let you taunt & move? Maybe I'm thinking of 4e pally & marking....

[AstralFire]

Does knight let you taunt & move? Maybe I'm thinking of 4e pally & marking....

Knight's Challenge is a swift action, so that's a roger-roger.

[Fax Celestis]

Does knight let you taunt & move? Maybe I'm thinking of 4e pally & marking....

Knight's Challenge is a swift action, so you can challenge, then spring attack.

If I ever play in a gestalt game, I'll be a Catfolk Knight//Scout with the full spring attack tree.

[AstralFire]

Knight's Challenge is a swift action, so you can challenge, then spring attack.

If I ever play in a gestalt game, I'll be a Catfolk Knight//Scout with the full spring attack tree.

And I'll be a Ninja//Ninja with the Improved Post Rate feat chain. HEYYO! -spins on head and disappears-

[Myrmex]

Knight's Challenge is a swift action, so you can challenge, then spring attack.

If I ever play in a gestalt game, I'll be a Catfolk Knight//Scout with the full spring attack tree.

Like Scorpion. Sort of.

"Get over here! ... please?"

[AstralFire]

I'm thinking more of a lethal Gingerbread man, here.

[Darrin]

That's... not very helpful.

Okay... tell me what you're trying to do with spring attack, and I'll tell you how to do it faster and more effectively without taking all of the spring attack feats.

[Curmudgeon]

You don't need difficult terrain, though that helps. You can use other characters. But the best way to avoid a charge is to not be seen.

If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.

If you're a Rogue, the only time you should take Spring Attack is after you've taken 1 level of Shadowdancer and gotten Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight. That happens to also meet the requirements for Spring Attack.

As far as dealing out enough damage, sneak attack is a big help -- and not being seen makes it easy. But you can add Snap Kick (Tome of Battle) for a second unarmed attack whenever you get at least one melee attack, and that's perfect for Spring Attack (and AoOs, too). Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faerûn) grant Improved Unarmed Strike for only 1,310 gp. You don't need to worry about your base damage being insignificant (1d3) when you've got sneak attack.

[AstralFire]

Well, he's trying to do something with Spring Attack, for starters. I think you know that and just have 'Sneak Attack' on the brain, but I thought I'd check.

And I think it's just for the challenge of the thing as opposed to enabling a specific concept.

[Myrmex]

Okay... tell me what you're trying to do with sneak attack, and I'll tell you how to do it faster and more effectively without taking all of the sneak attack feats.

Well, I'm trying to see if running up to somebody, hitting them, then running away, would ever work off of a mount, and if so, how many levels it takes. Using HiPS seems to be, so far, the best way to do it.

[Asgardian]

It works okay with my Scout cohort. It fits in with his skirmisher role as he does his +3d6 (or is it 4d6 at lvl10?) skirmish and keeps him from getting squished at the same time

[Myrmex]

Having to take two crappy feats to get a third crappy feat is not worth it. The only way I see this working is Swiftblade, where arcane strike, power attack, wraithstrike, bite of X and other yummy buffs will help damage output.

[Harperfan7]

If your DM allows it, tempest prestige class + bounding assault/rapid blitz for up to 6 skirmish attacks and no AoO. Also, I second the swiftblade class.

If you play a gestalt game, try monk/scout. That item in the equipment guide that you train with as a monk for a couple weeks and get 10ft. adjustments...hells yeah.

[Master_Rahl22]

Ride-By Attack is mounted Spring Attack, with the proviso that you have to keep moving in the same direction you started, rather than getting to move anywhere you want after you attack.

Other than that, ToB classes typically only need a Standard action to kick ass, so they're free to Spring Attack all they want if you really want to spend 3 crappy feats for it.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If your DM allows it, tempest prestige class + bounding assault/rapid blitz for up to 6 skirmish attacks and no AoO. Also, I second the swiftblade class.

If you play a gestalt game, try monk/scout. That item in the equipment guide that you train with as a monk for a couple weeks and get 10ft. adjustments...hells yeah.

If I was going gestalt Scout, I'd rather go Pouncing Charger or something for the BAB, or Glaivelock and then use UMD to use the Monk item.

[AstralFire]

Ride-By Attack is mounted Spring Attack, with the proviso that you have to keep moving in the same direction you started, rather than getting to move anywhere you want after you attack.

Other than that, ToB classes typically only need a Standard action to kick ass, so they're free to Spring Attack all they want if you really want to spend 3 crappy feats for it.

A reasonable house rule for strikes that don't involve movement, but Spring Attack specifies the attack action rather than a standard action that involves attacking.

[Myrmex]

Ride-By Attack is mounted Spring Attack, with the proviso that you have to keep moving in the same direction you started, rather than getting to move anywhere you want after you attack.

And you get triple damage with that lance, too.

Other than that, ToB classes typically only need a Standard action to kick ass, so they're free to Spring Attack all they want if you really want to spend 3 crappy feats for it.

Ooh, good point.

[Eldariel]

Spring Attack only allows attacks. It does not work with Strikes or spells or indeed, anything (hence making it very useless for ToB-characters). This is why Flyby Attack is about 10000000 times better feat; it doesn't have stupid prerequisites and works with anything. Only problem is, it only works if you can fly. That said, Spring Attack does have one use:

The Mole. Pick a character with Earth Glide or Burrow-speed (and preferably Tremorsense), Spring Attack from the ground and go back to the ground in the same action! Great, especially with Fast Healing.

There's even a Handbook for Moles.

[Deepblue706]

There might be some use with Elusive Target. It has both Dodge and Mobility as prereqs anyway.

Negate Power Attack will stop anything really big from charging the hell out of you. So, if you Spring Attack something big, it probably can't smash you to bits, as you're denying it a Full-Attack as well as a PA-Charge.

Cause Overreach will give you trip attempts against those who make AoOs (and miss) against you for Spring Attacking their buddy. Mobility is giving you +4 AC against those attacks.

Although, you'd still trading smacks with whoever you're Spring Attacking, and monsters tend to hit really hard anyway. Since you have Dodge, maybe grabbing Combat Expertise for Karmic Strike would allow you to get another hit in when he counterattacks. Being position near an ally who can make AoOs against those who charge at you will also be easier, since Spring Attack can allow you to retreat a fair bit if you've got decent movement enhancers.

I can't think of much else. Sorry.

[Darrin]

Well, I'm trying to see if running up to somebody, hitting them, then running away, would ever work off of a mount, and if so, how many levels it takes. Using HiPS seems to be, so far, the best way to do it.

Ugh. Yes, I kept saying "sneak attack" but meant "spring attack".

You never mentioned the mount in your original post. And while HiPS would be great, yes, it has nothing to do with "move + attack + move". Nor would HiPS help while you're riding a mount.

If you want to move + attack + move, dip one level of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian and take the Travel Devotion. This gets you move + full attack + move (for 10 rounds, yes, but after 10 full attacks my guess would be you won't need it anymore). Yes, they can charge you after that, but if they get one attack to your full attack, assuming you have more than one attack, you're coming out ahead. If you spent the same amount of feats on this as on Spring Attack (three, for example), you'd still be getting 30 rounds of move + full attack + move a day.

If you want your MOUNT to move + attack + move (you can get one attack in as well by making a ride check, but only one attack if the mount moves more than 5'... but I'm really fuzzy on whether you need Spring Attack to attack in the middle of your mount's move), then I'd suggest you pick up a flying mount and make sure it comes with or gets Flyby Attack. This is similar to Spring Attack or Ride-By Attack except that you can use any standard action during the move, and it doesn't have to be in a straight line (other than the vagaries of aerial movement). Picking up a giant eagle mount would be 4000 GP + 1000 GP for training.

Preventing a charge afterwards is a little bit of a separate problem. While HiPS would work for you, it won't work for your mount. Fly-By Attack alleviates this somewhat since you can, well, *fly away*. If your mount is a ground-pounder, then chances are you probably have a move action left, so you still have a move action to maybe draw something out of your pack and drop it in a square that would prevent or discourage a charge. Unseen Servant would be useful here... you could order it to spread caltrops, carry a darkwood feycraft tower shield, or just stand in a square and push back anyone who enters that square (with a Str 2 it would lose, but it would prevent a charge).

[AstralFire]

I think he meant he would like the "stab... runaway!" tactic to work without being on a mount.

[Eldariel]

Oh, I forgot! Battle Jump makes the one attack hurt, and allows you to Pounce with it (because it basically means an attack done after coming down on an opponent from certain height is a charge and you can jump as a part of movement just fine). I love that feat.

[Deepblue706]

Oh Man.

Find a way to Spring Attack off cliffs onto enemies, and then jump back UP as the other part of the movement...

[Eldariel]

Oh Man.

Find a way to Spring Attack off cliffs onto enemies, and then jump back UP as the other part of the movement...

Or just Jump above the enemy from the ground as a part of your movement and run back inside the ground you came from :)