[4e]How to impove party members fairly

[oxinabox]

Ok, I want to give the party some stuff to make the stronger, or more versitile.
It's a two person party.
So they need more versitility.
Eladrin warlock (thief, teleporting build)
Doppelganger Sorcerer.

Now The warlock tends to dominate the RP alot.
He's more practiced at it. and His character is female,
and the party spends alot of time disguided as drow, which is matriarchal.
though the Doppleganger could change into female now that i think of it, and the eladrin could disguise as an underling.


And I'm letting the doppleganger change into anything of medium size.
I've also given him a item that lets him create change the appearnance of his clothing. (by pointing a jem on a bag at some one cloths he'ld like to match.
then putting his cloths in the bag and taking them out again.)
But that was a while ago.
I'm about to nerf his his tranformation abit, after last week he transformend into a ... Lamisu? the things that can't lie.
So I'm going to add a cluase to hsi shape change where if he changes into a Outsider beyond his lvl, he has to make a will save (well take an attack agaisnt his will defense)
at +lvl difference, or for the next day be effected by the restrictions that that creature takes.
So if he transformed in to a good celestial, he would have to act good.
He'ld find himself physically incapable of evil.
This makes sense as outsiders souls and form are the same thing.



The Party just aquired a large stash of poisons (beyond their lvl, but again 2 person party against the world).
which i think the warlock is planning on using.

Now since the warlock want to use poisons, i want to increase his attack with his weapon.

The party also aquired a 2 souls (how they found waiting outside the gates to heaven, who were trying to get in but had been declined, it turns out) which they tricked/coerced/tempted into moving into their daggers.

Now the warlock is going to have to commune with his Fey Spirits that give him power.
As he teliported via the feywild, when he didn't have ascess to the faywild. (he was off the material plane, and i'm ruling that that means he can't ascess the feywild)
His Fey that give him power, "Moved him By Brute Force"
Which exhausted them (so he suffered a penalty to his casting stat: charisma)
Now they encoughed him to talk to them, and maybe they can call in some old favors from being of the Etheral or Astral Planes, allowing him to teliport in the inner planes, and the outerplanes respectively.
This may involve a quest (any suggestions at to what the fey would want done?)
Anyway, while their communing, they'll notice the Soul binding this soul, to his dagger.
and I was thinking they might make it a Symbol of the Bond between them and the warlock.
And allow him to use the strength of the bond (Ie his charisma stat) to make attack rolls with it.


Any suggestions what i should give a doppelganger sorcerer?

[Indon]

A popular solution to giving small parties (1-3 people) more versatility is through the Gestalt alternate ruleset.

It allows players to essentially progress in two classes simultaneously, and encourages diversification and picking secondary classes with lots of passive bonuses.

Edit: If you don't want the players to pick their second classes, you could flavor the Gestalting as the blessing of some deity or another and give them second classes you feel are appropriate.

[Tengu_temp]

4e. Gestalt is 3.5.

@OP - you do realize that Doppelgangers don't gain any abilities or stats when they change into a different form, right? It's just appearance.
The problem with this party is that it has no defenders and no leaders - it deals a lot of damage, but is also fairly squishy. I suggest giving them a fair amount of healing potions, maybe even an item that lets them cast an equivalent of Healing Word 1/encounter.

[Indon]

Doh!

You could make the encounters easier than suggested.

[Kylarra]

Well first off, I recommend a NPC cleric for support, or possibly a paladin. Basically there to heal and debuff, you could even use some of the pacifistic powers from DP to keep the spotlight on them. Otherwise a fair number of healing potions might work too.

Depending on your game structure, you could guarantee an action point/encounter with milestone action points breaking the usual 1/encounter limit. That'd help a bit with action economy of being a party half the size of normal.

If combat is taking too long (as it might be with only two sources of damage) consider allowing more encounter powers. Action economy will still limit them, but they'll be able to be more blasty.

Mix and match to taste?

[Mando Knight]

Paladin or Bard NPC could work well...

I'd look into getting the Eberron Player's Guide and ask the player if he wants to switch to Changeling, as DDI has. It is important to note that the text of the Change Shape racial power for both races outright states that the polymorph effect of the power does not change the actual statistics of the character in any way, other than adding an untyped bonus to the Bluff check to imitate an assumed unique form.

Now, see, as a 2-player team, they've really got the short end of the stick: Defenders and Leaders tend to fare the best in small groups, and a pair of Strikers makes things really "swingy." Give 'em extra healing potions and a Fighter or something.

Ooh! Also, there's a new build for Clerics in Divine Power that doesn't deal any damage itself (except with one at-will), but allows the other guys to always have combat advantage, kill off enemy resistances, etc.

[Starsinger]

I think what Indon meant to link to was Gralamin's 4e Gestalt Homebrew Rules and he grabbed the wrong link, right Indon?

Or, if that doesn't work out, you could try the NPC cleric or Paladin or whatever.

[oxinabox]

Oh, combat's not something that happens much in this game, we spend more time with RP.
The warlock can't fight: can almost exclusivly teleport.
And the sourceer is a striker/controller.

No this thread isn't about that, it's more about I want to give the warlock a better dagger, what should i give the sorcerer?

[Mando Knight]

No this thread isn't about that, it's more about I want to give the warlock a better dagger, what should i give the sorcerer?

Sorcerers like better daggers more than Warlocks do. Especially since they can use every last one as an implement, unlike a Warlock, who needs a feat or a Pact Blade to do so.

[Kylarra]

Oh, combat's not something that happens much in this game, we spend more time with RP.
The warlock can't fight: can almost exclusivly teleport.
And the sourceer is a striker/controller.

No this thread isn't about that, it's more about I want to give the warlock a better dagger, what should i give the sorcerer?

The dichotomy in the statements is well, greatly striking, since a dagger is more or less only of use to a warlock in combat (as they can only use pactblades to begin with, unless they've burned a feat).

Ok, I want to give the party some stuff to make the stronger, or more versitile.

It's also at odds with this statement, since "stronger" is a subjective term that's really only applicable to combat (or uh feats of strength if we're being entirely too literal).

So I guess I want you to clarify more what you're looking for here since you've both stated that combat is a nonissue, but then turn around and are giving a better weapon to one char.

If it's simple balance you're looking for, uh, just give the sorcerer another feat granting weapon since melee training (cha) is all you're giving the warlock. Alternatively just give them some spotlight time since if combat doesn't happen a lot in the first place, a bonus to attacks is just fluffy.

[AgentPaper]

If you're worried about them not being able to take on the few combats they're in, give them minions. It kinda depends on the style of game you're playing, but just giving them 2-4 simple NPC style people to boss around in combat should be fine. (you probably want to give the same amount of minions to each)

They don't have to be the literal minion monster type, though you could give them a handful of those instead, I suppose. Just use the NPC rules on page 186 of the DMG, and especially the class templates on 188. I'd go with either 1 NPC for each player at equal level to them, or 2 for each 2 levels lower.

[oxinabox]

(as they can only use pactblades to begin with, unless they've burned a feat).

In 4we anyone can use any weapon (they just don't get a proficeny bonus)
And warlocks are already proficent with Daggers: they are simple Melee.
Warlocks are proffienct with simple mellee.

Combat doesn't occur often, but when it does I'ld like the Poison user to have a stabby weopon that she can use to poison.
Eh, they'll proably just put the poison into drinks.

[Gort]

Not sure. But with a party this size I'd be wanting to boost the numbers a little.
Think about giving one of them a beast as in the ranger beast rules from martial power. They don't get any standard actions unless the player choose to forgo theirs but it does add a minor defender (all the beast will really do for free is oppourtunity attack).
Both those characters could benefit from that. The beast could even be fairly stealthy if required.

[Yakk]

If you want slightly stronger players...

1> Give them an action point per encounter.

2> Up their stats to a 41 point buy (or down to -19 points in the character builder)

3> At 4/8/14/18/24/28, grant them 3 stats to get a +1 on instead of 2.

4> Give them a Hybrid class to 'add in' to their character, and an extra encounter power at 4/14/24 and an extra daily power at 8/18/28. (They get the extra HP and healing surges and features and weapon proficiencies of the hybrid half-class).

5> When they get a utility power, they get a utility power from each class.

6> Allow them to take 1 hybrid talent feat per tier.

Treat your party of 2 as a party of 3, and they should be able to handle the fights.

Plus they will have much more versatility.

[ZeroNumerous]

Or just use Gralamin's Gestalt rules.

[Kylarra]

In 4we anyone can use any weapon (they just don't get a proficeny bonus)
And warlocks are already proficent with Daggers: they are simple Melee.
Warlocks are proffienct with simple mellee.

Combat doesn't occur often, but when it does I'ld like the Poison user to have a stabby weopon that she can use to poison.
Eh, they'll proably just put the poison into drinks.

Let me rephrase.

If she wants to get the enhancement bonus to her powers, she'll need a pactblade or to have burned a feat, otherwise it becomes a melee weapon, and as a non-melee striker, it is less than optimal for her to be striking at things in melee, given that AC is generally higher than other defenses, except for possibly the strongest defense, and she's CHA-focused and not CON-focused.

So we're looking at a contrived situation here, melee training (cha) which is admittedly a useful feat if combat were present a lot, but still would only be mainly useful if there is a warlord in the party (there isn't), and if she were taking advantage of OAs (she doesn't seem to be given the next point), and poison use, a decidedly situational power, especially given that you need to burn standard actions (action economy is already low in a 2-person party!) to poison your blade.

In light of the above, as far as balance is concerned, all the sorcerer needs is equal time in the limelight as you're promoting a method of combat that is rather suboptimal in the first place.

The inconsistency in pronouns is confusing me, but I assume your warlock player won't be reading this to take offense.

[oxinabox]

If she wants to get the enhancement bonus to her powers, she'll need a pactblade or to have burned a feat, otherwise it becomes a melee weapon, and as a non-melee striker, it is less than optimal for her to be striking at things in melee, given that AC is generally higher than other defenses, except for possibly the strongest defense, and she's CHA-focused and not CON-focused.

You can't apply poison to a spell

[Kylarra]

You can't apply poison to a spell

Your devotion to a singular method of combat is both impressive and rather frustrating.

Just give the sorcerer the same thing then. They're both CHA based classes.

[oxinabox]

Your devotion to a singular method of combat is both impressive and rather frustrating.

Just give the sorcerer the same thing then. They're both CHA based classes.

But he has not story line.

Eh, i think I'll just tell the party to all advance 2 lvls,

[Burley]

But he has not story line.

Eh, i think I'll just tell the party to all advance 2 lvls,

I think that might be the opposite of good. Just giving them levels will cheapen the game. Making encounters either too easy, or (if you adjust the level appropriately) you'll be in the same boat.

My suggestion: Spellplague. Have them run into it, and get the spellplague multiclass stuff for free. Then, you can add in tiny little powers here and there to make them feel like they're getting a lot, but without making you have to fuddle with potentially broken stuff.

Maybe the spellplague gives them the ability to use the Wizard's catrips?
Maybe it lets them add on an extra 5 points of (pick energy type) to a spell as a daily utility?
Maybe the spellplague bonds the two of the characters together with an invisible arcane chain, represented by a single familiar that they both share and benefit from?
(Heck, maybe you could even have an invisible arcane chain that prevents them from moving X number of squares away from each other. They could be on the other side of walls and stuff, but not more than 50 squares apart. You could even say that once a day, they can force the chain to become semi-material, and a Cha vs. Ref attack deals 1d6 untyped damage to all enemies between the two characters. I would psyched to have that kind of power...)

[oxinabox]

uuhgha yuk! (Please don't take this the wrong way i'm only semi serious)
Keep your Forgotten Realms out of my Planescape.
Do You know what adding spell plague to my carefully constructed setting would do?

Introducing the spellplague, wot [sic] that alternate the very fabric of the magical world (fluff wise) would be so much more WTF than:
"Oh for the crazy stuff you just managed to pull of last week you got abit more experience than i originally calculated"
They were going to assassinate a guym, but ended up robbing valuable records, while diguised as him.
sold the recoprds on, still disuised as him
killed the guy - insuch away that it looks like the people they (disguised as him) sold the records to double crossed him, and took back the money.


(ooh! they're going to get in trouble from the people they set up as having murdered him, if there is a way i can ever tace it back to them - they cover there tracks well...).

Making encounters either too easy, or (if you adjust the level appropriately) you'll be in the same boat.

There is noway to give lvl appropriate ecounders for lvl 4, in the inner planes.
It can't happen.
There is no way to give lvl appropriate ewncounters for lvl 6's, but at lest they have some chance to survive for a couple of seconds in the friendlyest partes of the planes.


BTW:
They Can cast wizard cantrips because theire arcane spell users, and they found a (poor pathetic) wizard and paid him to teach them.
Well when i say payed i mean "Promised to pay, then took back to there house and mercilessly tortured him"

[Burley]

Well, Maybe the Spellplague isn't the flavor you want, but (especially given the horridly evil stench of the characters) the chain thing would be a good sort of punishment. They could just find a way to make it work in their favor.

But... I don't know anything about your campaign, as you reminded me. So... do as you will, regardless.

[Indon]

I think what Indon meant to link to was Gralamin's 4e Gestalt Homebrew Rules and he grabbed the wrong link, right Indon?

Sweet, learn something new every day.

Looks like a fascinating system.

Edit: Er, I mean, uh... yes, thank you for providing the correct link that I intended to post the entire time.

[oxinabox]

Well, Maybe the Spellplague isn't the flavor you want, but (especially given the horridly evil stench of the characters) the chain thing would be a good sort of punishment. They could just find a way to make it work in their favor.

But... I don't know anything about your campaign, as you reminded me. So... do as you will, regardless.

I suspect these players would consider it to be breaking the game if they disincorperated the chain then used it to kill someone by making it appear again.
And the loss of flexibilty would make them cry.
Almost half the time one party member is acting as though they don't know the other.
For one reasopn or another

Thankyou for suggestions anyway though.
I doubt the "law" (actually my setting has little law and more "justice") will be able to catchup with them.
I did mention ones a doppleganger ant the other is a master of disguise...

[Burley]

Thankyou for suggestions anyway though.
I doubt the "law" (actually my setting has little law and more "justice") will be able to catchup with them.
I did mention ones a doppleganger ant the other is a master of disguise...

It doesn't matter... in the dark. By which I mean, anybody who is sufficiently set on tracking them could do it with marginal costs. Scrying shouldn't be too difficult, if they're ripping of the people you say they are.

[oxinabox]

It doesn't matter... in the dark. By which I mean, anybody who is sufficiently set on tracking them could do it with marginal costs. Scrying shouldn't be too difficult, if they're ripping of the people you say they are.

Well, I've had clerks of the war office tailing them for a bit.
(I gave the clerks a potion that allowed them to smell what planes some one had been on)
As they smell the PC's having been on the "Plane of War" (actually a planet on the material plane), and they Clerks wanted a Update on the status of the War.
(in sigil the office of war maintains records on the current stat of everywar in the multiverse) and asking for an interview.
The PC's refused as standard payment was 5gp/day for interveiw.
Unless they had critical information.

When the PC's refused, they went on their way.
They have suspicions about the PCs now.
But they won't invest critical resources.

The Carters Guild (who the sold the information they stole from the records too, and also who they framed for murder of the guy they framed for theft) on the other hand has the resource to, slowly bring to bear an large team of Ritual Casters to work out (slowly (more quickly if the PC's betray the Guild again)) who it was that framed them, and to scry trace them 24/7.
Heh, this may or may not end up with the carters guild trying to hand them over to Mercykillers/harmonium/the nears faction that like to pretend to police sigil.
And these are some of the people with the best insight scores in the city - cunning barginer, no crazy bluff "I didn't do it, your wizards are lying to you, I'm your son." this time...
They may be able to weasel out of it, but that will be fun in it's own right.