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Thread: Misinformation?

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Misinformation?

    well, all information about how the snarl was created, what happened to the eastern gods and world 1.0 and how the snarl was imprisoned, basically was delivered through many generations so the thought comes to mind that it might be not 100% accurate cause it might be altered in soe way during this long amount of time

    Another point: What is the original source of information, may there have been some kind of motive to give out wrong/altered information?

    This would make guessing about what happened inside the rifts much more difficult. Example: If the eastern gods weren't killed by the snarl, but trapped within world 2.0 together with him maybe they build another world to trap him inside, of which they are the only gods.

    I dont think rich has intended it to be this way, but it might be worth some speculation.

    Any thoughts?

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    Default Re: Misinformation?

    This totally needed a whole new thread

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    Wasn't Shojo, the son of the guy who created the saphire city gate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerrakoth View Post
    Wasn't Shojo, the son of the guy who created the saphire city gate?
    No, he was simply the son of the previous Lord, who assumed the role of the sapphire's guardian from Soon.
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    Default Re: Misinformation?

    Do we really need eight million new threads to point out what we already know?

    The gods left some information out of the story. Something funky is going on inside the rift/planet.


    Can we just use one of the threads that already exist? You are not the first person to figure out that there is misinformation, especially since V STATES IT IN THE COMIC.

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    Default Re: Misinformation?

    Yipe, guys. A stick figure comic is serious business, apparently.

    To answer the OP's question, we have two main sources of information on the Snarl: Shojo's story in the Crayons of Time, and Redcloak's in SoD. We have reasons to distrust both (Soon cannot lie, but Shojo definitely could; Redcloak had no reason to lie, but may have been deceived by the Dark One.) For motive, Right-Eye cast doubt on the Dark One's devotion to the goblin people in SoD; if he is right, then the Dark One had reason to deceive his clerics about the nature of the Snarl. Shojo's motive for any falsehood is less clear, and indeed I don't think he lied.

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    I think Shojo was telling what he thought was the truth. If there's something the gods want people to stay away from, telling them it hides an abomination capable of killing gods and destroying souls is a good way to do it. Also, I think the gods may have lied to the Dark One, but am having a hard time figuring why the evil gods would go along with the good ones on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Shojo's motive for any falsehood is less clear, and indeed I don't think he lied.
    Maybe he didn't, and maybe Soon didn't either. They could have both been misled by other powers. As I stated in the main thread, the only place Soon could have found out about World #1 and the Greek pantheon was from the Gods themselves, because no-one else was around at the time those events took place; so, assuming the Gods have some reason to lie, they could quite easily have done so.

    What that reason might be is a more complicated issue!

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Maybe he didn't, and maybe Soon didn't either. They could have both been misled by other powers. As I stated in the main thread, the only place Soon could have found out about World #1 and the Greek pantheon was from the Gods themselves, because no-one else was around at the time those events took place; so, assuming the Gods have some reason to lie, they could quite easily have done so.

    What that reason might be is a more complicated issue!
    The problem with this theory is that the Scribble themselves DID encounter their own empirical evidence on the Snarl - Mijung and Kraagor's irreversible deaths, the nature of the rifts and how to seal them. Lirian herself specifically mentions the Snarl in SoD (rather than just the rifts), and not during a flashback either, so they definitely believe it exists. It's true that the gods could have deceived them too, but you'd think that an epic party, complete with a wizard and naturist working in complete tandem, would have suspected foul play at some point.

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    Ultimately, I don't think we can assume what the OP suggested about the story having changed in the telling. It did not go through many steps before reaching us.

    The original source of it is the gods. They informed the Order of the Scribble, and through Soon, Shojo's father learned it, and through him Shojo himself learned it. Similarly, they informed the Dark One about it, and he informed Redcloak about it. Those two are the ones who informed us, and the story did not go through many intermediaries to reach them, especially in Redcloak's case. Moreover, the two stories match each other perfectly, and it's pretty unlikely that both the Dark One and Soon/Shojo's father/Shojo would both change the same part of the story to deceive the individuals they were telling it to. They have vastly different motives and goals.

    No, whatever flaw there is in that story - if there is indeed a flaw - originates with the gods. Whether in their limited perceptions, or in deliberate misinformation, or in something else, we don't have enough information to say, but they're the source of it all one way or another.

    Zevox
    Last edited by Zevox; 2009-08-10 at 10:52 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    The original source of it is the gods. They informed the Order of the Scribble, and through Soon, Shojo's father learned it, and through him Shojo himself learned it.
    I have to disagree, or at least present an alternate theory. Shojo's exact words were "through diligent study and magical inquiry, they were able to guess at (the rifts') nature." He does not mention the gods as being the sole source, or even any source, of the Scribble's knowledge of the Snarl. Note also that among the Scribble, only Soon had a strong connection to the gods; Lirian's power comes from nature itself (Druids are not required to revere a deity), and Dorukan's conclusions are much more likely to have come from empirical observation than any divine augury.

    Now, there is a chance that Shojo was mislead, and that the Scribble's knowledge did come primarily from the gods, but Dorukan and Lirian being the group's thinkers makes this unlikely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    I have to disagree, or at least present an alternate theory. Shojo's exact words were "through diligent study and magical inquiry, they were able to guess at (the rifts') nature." He does not mention the gods as being the sole source, or even any source, of the Scribble's knowledge of the Snarl. Note also that among the Scribble, only Soon had a strong connection to the gods; Lirian's power comes from nature itself (Druids are not required to revere a deity), and Dorukan's conclusions are much more likely to have come from empirical observation than any divine augury.

    Now, there is a chance that Shojo was mislead, and that the Scribble's knowledge did come primarily from the gods, but Dorukan and Lirian being the group's thinkers makes this unlikely.
    Except that, as I believe another poster pointed out, it would impossible for them to learn information about the dead gods of the east through any source but the gods, since they were the only beings surviving who remember them.

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    Not true. Other planes weren't affected by the Snarl, so extraplanar visitors or World 1.0 refugees who'd escaped via planar travel could also be a source of information. Heck, even Sabine might've been a witness to some of it, if she was seducing mortals on Stickworld Mk. 1 back then: we know she's older than World 2.0 from her own statements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Except that, as I believe another poster pointed out, it would impossible for them to learn information about the dead gods of the east through any source but the gods, since they were the only beings surviving who remember them.

    Zevox
    Soon's (and therefore Shojo's) knowledge of the Eastern gods could have come from other sources, as Rotipher said. We are talking about beings that hid knowledge of the Snarl even from other gods. Why would they confide in mortals? I still say the Scribble discovered whatever lore they did on their own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotipher View Post
    Not true. Other planes weren't affected by the Snarl, so extraplanar visitors or World 1.0 refugees who'd escaped via planar travel could also be a source of information. Heck, even Sabine might've been a witness to some of it, if she was seducing mortals on Stickworld Mk. 1 back then: we know she's older than World 2.0 from her own statements.
    Actually, according to Shojo, the Snarl's prison existed in multiple dimensions, all of which were basically built around the snarl to keep it trapped.

    I kinda inferred from that, (though I could be wrong) that the world the Snarl destroyed was the entire universe, not just one planet. The gods then rebuilt the entire universe around the Snarl. The other planes cannot be trapping the snarl if they were built before the snarl's rampage. It plainly stated that the gods could not alter the nature of the planes (like restoring the rifts) without completely rebuilding them.

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    Default Re: Misinformation?

    Now A-We know there is something wrong with our knowledge of the situation. but B-we don't know how seriously wrong. So our best attitude is to C-assume the problem is fairly minimal. This is the normal case with knowledge. New knowledge can make massive differences, but routinely the differences are not that huge. Most of us live lives where thinking the world is flat makes only minimal difference. It won't stop, or help, you get a date for Saturday night.
    So we are most likely correct to assume our previous knowledge was almost right instead of being wildly wrong. We can assume the previous reports were completely right [or wrong in some cases since they don't entirely agree] and should do so until we get some information that is more precise.

    Of course there is a good chance we won't get that sort of information for a year or two.
    Spoiler
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    We have a pretty full calendar for the next book, covering Haley and her father, and the twins and their parent[s], besides the gate. So there really isn't room for much about this new world.
    A storyline we might be following is that the destruction of the next gate will lead to the entire party, possibly including Team Evil, being tossed into the new world, with the party then discovering the "true" facts, and needing a way to "escape" back home in book 6. That would mean discovering about zero about this new world for around 180 strips, and discovering secrets about in only well into the next books, a total that could exceed 300 strips. So don't be rushing to refresh in the hopes you will soon discover the answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotipher View Post
    Not true. Other planes weren't affected by the Snarl
    Source please. I don't recall it ever being stated whether other planes were or were not affected by the Snarl. The only thing I can think of which could be construed as a comment about that is that the gods "hid in their outer plane homes," which is a bit ambiguous, since we don't know how, exactly, the planes in the OotS world are structured, and whether the gods' domains are separate from or a part of the major Planescape planes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik
    I still say the Scribble discovered whatever lore they did on their own.
    And I say that seems impossible. No mortals survived the Snarl's rampage to tell anyone about it in the second world, and this knowledge has been portrayed as an incredible secret unknown to any save the Sapphire Guard, Order of the Scribble, and Redcloak. Even our bookworm elf V was totally unaware of it, even in rumor or myth form, before hearing Shojo's tale, and the Sapphire Guard apparently considers it a major secret, considering how reluctant Shojo had to appear to be to inform the Order about it.

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    ...you didn't read past the first line of my post, did you?

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    I read the first part of the first post... >_>;

    *goes to hide in a corner*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    And I say that seems impossible. No mortals survived the Snarl's rampage to tell anyone about it in the second world, and this knowledge has been portrayed as an incredible secret unknown to any save the Sapphire Guard, Order of the Scribble, and Redcloak. Even our bookworm elf V was totally unaware of it, even in rumor or myth form, before hearing Shojo's tale, and the Sapphire Guard apparently considers it a major secret, considering how reluctant Shojo had to appear to be to inform the Order about it.

    Zevox
    If the gods told the Scribble about the Snarl, why would they have to "guess at" the nature of the rifts? Why would "diligent study" be required? They'd know exactly what they were: holes in the Snarl's prison. And again I ask, who would they have told in the Scribble? Soon? Lirian? Dorukan? They had no clerics to cast Commune, even assuming the gods would have answered for fear of their dread secret getting out.

    If the gods told them anything, it was spotty and incomplete at best, or they wouldn't have to go poking around on their own.

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    My guess is that the Snarl itself created the alternate world behind the rift. When it killed the Greek gods and others, it was doing so to defend its baby from harm. Like a tigress protecting her cubs. The misinformation is that the Snarl is intrinsically evil and malevolent.

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    Several of the gods are presumably Lawful Good and thus unlikely to lie, especialy the ones Soon is most likely to communicate with. I don't think the crayons of Time info is deliberate misinformation... they are all, gods included, working with incomplete information.

    The Snarl has been left to itself for a very very long time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzer View Post
    The misinformation is that the Snarl is intrinsically evil and malevolent.
    That statement itself is misinformation, because the Snarl has never been presented as evil or malevolent. It is a mindless being of pure chaos, who seeks to undo creation purely because that makes everything more chaotic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    If the gods told the Scribble about the Snarl, why would they have to "guess at" the nature of the rifts? Why would "diligent study" be required? They'd know exactly what they were: holes in the Snarl's prison. And again I ask, who would they have told in the Scribble? Soon? Lirian? Dorukan? They had no clerics to cast Commune, even assuming the gods would have answered for fear of their dread secret getting out.

    If the gods told them anything, it was spotty and incomplete at best, or they wouldn't have to go poking around on their own.
    And yet we also have these lines from the final panels of this strip:
    But the gods chose not to tell any of their followers of the horrid beast that lay just beyond their plane.

    The gods feared that there would some day be a mortal who sought to free the Snarl, so they kept their secret.

    Sadly, this meant that even the most learned in the ways of arcane lore were caught unprepared...
    ...when holes appeared in the Snarl's prison.
    So, tell me: if "even the most learned in the ways of arcane lore" knew absolutely nothing about the Snarl before the holes started to appear, how could the Order of the Scribble learn what they did without getting their information from the gods? Moreover, how could Shojo know the gods' reasons for not revealing this story before the holes appeared without the information having come from them?

    Hell, this is also a very strong indication that extraplanar beings other than the gods are not survivors of the first world capable of informing mortals about this, since if they were, you would expect that "the most learned in the ways of arcane lore" would have some inkling of the Snarl's existence by that point. And it occurs to me that there is more evidence of that: the IFCC. They had to be informed about all this by Sabine. And they're Archfiends. Of three different races of fiends. If any powerful outsiders knew about the Snarl and World 1.0, ones such as they would be at the top of the list I'd expect to know.

    Zevox
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    "We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    And yet we also have these lines from the final panels of this strip:
    You just supported my point. The gods didn't want to tell their followers anything, and that includes Soon. But neither druids nor wizards fall under their jurisdiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    So, tell me: if "even the most learned in the ways of arcane lore" knew absolutely nothing about the Snarl before the holes started to appear, how could the Order of the Scribble learn what they did without getting their information from the gods? Moreover, how could Shojo know the gods' reasons for not revealing this story before the holes appeared without the information having come from them?
    Not all divinations have deific sources. Neither Legend Lore nor Vision depend on deities for information, nor do druid spells like Commune with Nature, and those are just core. As I said, they can collect evidence empirically through other means besides the gods.

    As for Shojo, he had it from Soon, who had it from his studious teammates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    That statement itself is misinformation, because the Snarl has never been presented as evil or malevolent.
    Well, I'm conflating "deicidal maniac" and "god-killing abomination" with "malevolent", and hence evil.

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    Default Re: Misinformation?

    Random thought, here, but... it seems obvious there is misinformation flying about from somewhere. We know this because V gets a conflicting story in 672 to the previous stories we've been told.

    But my thought is this: Why do we assume that its the gods spreading misinformation (intentionally or unintentionally), when the other half of the conflicting info comes straight out of the mouth of a certain birdly familiar who is know for taking opportunities to spite V and get hir into trouble?

    "Wait, theres a world in there! You cant simply defeat the snarl!" ... and team evil rubs their hands gleefully as the OotS twist themselves in knots trying to save a hidden world based on the say-so of a single spiteful bird.

    Stranger things have happened.
    Last edited by Caffiene; 2009-08-11 at 04:24 AM.

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    Default Re: Misinformation?

    I'll put my historian hat on and say we need to examine the sources, their possible origins, and the potential for bias.

    Shojo, form his father, from Soon

    Source: Here it is possibly Divine (given the dead gods that no one had heard of) but given that there was research done (as evidenced by Shojo) it is posisbly a mixture and therefore full of holes.
    An interesting question is how they got this information, the Divine stuff as well as the rest of the stuff, given that it is incomplete it makes you wonder how reliable it is.
    Bias: The gods want to keep the Snarl contained rather than go to the bother of making a new world, even though by now they can see that keeping the Snarl contained (even with the gates) is not really working. I can totally see someone like Soon going along with the plan of the gods Because Thou Must

    Redcloak, directly from the Dark One

    Source: No dispute here, directly from the Dark One but does the Dark One know everything? Not all of the gods trust him, if I recall. And we can't forget what Left-eye says of the Dark One, how he's just some pissed-off goblin with a grudge.
    Bias: Because the Dark One comes with his own emotional baggage cart that he passes on to Redcloak. Redcloak embraces it wholeheartedly, completely without question and at considerable personal expense. That's a HUGE amount of bias stating you right in the face.

    One thing also we have to consider is the fact that we have two halves of the same story that has no join in the middle. What is missing? Why is this missing?

    And that is your historiography lesson for today, boys and girls.

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    Default Re: Misinformation?

    Let's not forget that ANY information that Soon's Paladins found was quickly destroyed so that no one can use the snarl for malicious intent.

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