(3.5) Druid Animal Companion help

[Morquard]

Hi

I've never before played a druid or a ranger fo rthat matter, and the rules for Animal companions confuse me. The questions may sound stupid to veterans I bet, I'm sorry.

We start the campaign at 4th level, and I've read that the Ape is supposedly the best combat pet for that level, so I checked the stats for it.
Now the description says a animal companion gets the BAB of a druid of the same level as the HD of the companion.

a) However the Ape gets a -3 level adjustment, so does it only have 1 HD now and gets +0 bab. Or still 4 HD and +3 bab?

b) The stats here say that an ape has a +7 attack, but I guess that part gets overwritten when its a companion?

c) What about the Full attack line?

I think thats kind of the most confusing things for me right now for deciding on an animal.

[Woodsman]

a) However the Ape gets a -3 level adjustment, so does it only have 1 HD now and gets +0 bab. Or still 4 HD and +3 bab?

b) The stats here say that an ape has a +7 attack, but I guess that part gets overwritten when its a companion?

c) What about the Full attack line?

a) Still 4 HD, + 3 attack

b) That stays the same.

c) Same as in it's entry.

[Morquard]

Hm, ok, thanks for the quick answer.

Still not sure I fully understand it, so lets see if I understand it correctly.
Lets assume I would still use a wolf as companion at level 4.

He'd have 6 HD (4 because I'm 4, and +2 from the adjustment table)
BAB of 4 (as a level 6 druid would)
Attacks with Bite +6 for 1d6+2 damage
Get evasion as bonus feat

While an ape would have
4 HD, BAB 3, and attack for Claw +7 for 1d6+5

Thats correct, or did I mess it up?

[Kylarra]

The part you're confusing is that the level adjustment of -3 is for the bonuses granted by the table. (Note: you can alleviate this penalty by taking the Natural Bond feat CAdv p111)

ie at level 4, your ape companion would get the bonuses as if you were a level 1 druid.

The reason the ape is the same as the entry is that it currently doesn't have any bonus HD.

[Eloel]

Now the description says a animal companion gets the BAB of a druid of the same level as the HD of the companion.

That's just an unneededly complex explanation. An easier one (with the exact same meaning), would be;

Animal companions have BABs at 3/4 of their HD, rounded down.

I think you're confused by the PHB-description of things.

Bonus HD

Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.

This, can be shortened, without losing ANY meaning, to;

Bonus HD

Extra animal Hit Dice (see Animal Type), with all benefits, except size increases.

Lets assume I would still use a wolf as companion at level 4.

He'd have 6 HD (4 because I'm 4, and +2 from the adjustment table)
BAB of 4 (as a level 6 druid would)
Attacks with Bite +6 for 1d6+2 damage
Get evasion as bonus feat

Ugh, no.
You'd have a wolf, with all benefits on table to 4th level. (Which is; +2 Animal HD, +2 Natural Armor, +1 Str/Dex, 2 tricks, Evasion/Link/Share Spells.)
He'd have 4HD (d8), 3BAB, +4 Ref/Fort, +1 Will as base stats.

[Eldariel]

Bonus HD = Taking levels in the animal class. It's no more complex than that. So you take your animal companion's stats from Monster Manual and give it two more levels and everything that comes with generic levels (extra feat every 3 levels, extra stat every 4 levels, extra HP for each HD [just take average; d8 = 4.5 average], extra BAB like a Medium BAB class, 1 skill per level due to their Int being 1-2).

Then apply the other adjustments and give it whatever special abilities it is due. But yeah, "better animal companions" treat your effective Druid-level for applying the bonuses as lower. So the "level 4 animal companions" treat your Druid-level as 3 levels lower than it actually is for bonuses. So they get bonuses equal to a Druid of your level - 3 (4-3=1), and level 1 Druid has no bonuses.


Also, best level 4 Animal Companion is Fleshraker, but as that's in MM3, it's probably not available.

I'd say Dire Bat is the second bets; it's superb as a flying mount, but it actually also has fine stats for a pure fight.

[Morquard]

Ok, for some reason I thought that the animal would automatically level up with me and the HD as I have, and the bonus HD for being a low level pet to balance it somehow. But I can't really find anymore why I thought that. Most likely I misread some part.

I guess Bonus HP, Natural Armor, Str/Dex Adj and Bonus Tricks are not cumulative, but replace the previous one?
That means if i am Level 6, that wolf would have 6 HD (2+4) and not 8 (2+2+4)?
Otherwise at 18, my wolf would be 44 HD, and that sounds totally overpowered. (14 sounds a bit weak though on the other hand...)

The special abilites on the other hand are cumulative I guess? So at 6, the animal would have Link, Share Spell, Evasion and Devotian?

Well thanks for sheding some light on all this. I'd prefer to have one animal throughout the campaign for RP reasons, but seems I only gimp myself if I do that.

[Blackfang108]

I guess Bonus HP, Natural Armor, Str/Dex Adj and Bonus Tricks are not cumulative, but replace the previous one?
That means if i am Level 6, that wolf would have 6 HD (2+4) and not 8 (2+2+4)?

The special abilites on the other hand are cumulative I guess? So at 6, the animal would have Link, Share Spell, Evasion and Devotion?

Yes, on both counts.

[Morquard]

Ok, I think I finally got it. It doesn't seem that complicated anymore suddenly ;)

And I jsut stumbled about another question though.
Once my animal companion has 8 HD or more, it got a BAB of +6. Does it get an additional attack with +1 like a PC would?
Or does it never ever get more attacks than it says in the "Full Attack" line?

[zarakstan]

Apes are ridiculously over-powered! I was in a party with one once and it was the melee beast of the party

[Kylarra]

Ok, I think I finally got it. It doesn't seem that complicated anymore suddenly ;)

And I jsut stumbled about another question though.
Once my animal companion has 8 HD or more, it got a BAB of +6. Does it get an additional attack with +1 like a PC would?
Or does it never ever get more attacks than it says in the "Full Attack" line?

Since it is using natural weapons, it won't gain iterative attacks. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbi...naturalWeapons

[Morquard]

Gotcha!

Thank you all for putting up with my noob questions, but I feel alot more informed about my little pet now.

[Moriato]

Once my animal companion has 8 HD or more, it got a BAB of +6. Does it get an additional attack with +1 like a PC would?
Or does it never ever get more attacks than it says in the "Full Attack" line?

Natrual weapons don't get iterative attacks, so no, it does not gain any attacks. It has its full attack routine and that's it. There's some debate on whether or not it should gain feats.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Gotcha!

Thank you all for putting up with my noob questions, but I feel alot more informed about my little pet now.

The Druid is a fairly easy class to build, but a lot of the abilities can be intimidating to a noob(or an experienced player). Some of the stuff you were having issues with is due to the fact that the designers apparently fail basic English. We've all been there. If you think this is bad, wait until you get Wildshape. Your question thread will turn into a 37-page monstrosity where people debate whether Druids turned into bats can see in the dark.

Also, bonus HD grant feats. That's basic. Ignore Moriato

[Morquard]

Ok you started it!
Wildshape then.. .you're right thats even more confusing :)
(since we start at 4th level its not that far into the future I assume, and I should spend some thoughts on it already)

a) I read different things about Con. I know Str and Dex gets replaced with the animals stats, and I keep Int/wis/cha, so even if i have 8 str/dex and turn into a dire ape i can rip stuff apart. But con... some sources say I keep my druid con, other say i take on the con of the animal.

b) "gear becomes nonfunctional", i assume that counts for both AC and magical bonus of any kind?

c) There's armor for animals I think, but is it worth getting it?

d) "The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level." Does that mean a level 5 druid can't shapeshift into an animal (even if its medium) that has 6+ HD (acording to MM), or only that he then would only have 5 HD? (I assume the former)

e) Turned around, a level 10 druid wildshapes into a wolf (2 HD). Now he got 2 HD himself? (again I guess so)

f) I read somewhere "Don't bother with Str, later you spend the better part of the day as a dragon anyway". I thought Dragons are of the dragon type and not animals or elementals?

g) Last one: I can't speak as an animal... but can I cheat and use my paw to write in the sand? or something similar? knock on wood in morse code or whatever?

[Blackfang108]

a) I read different things about Con. I know Str and Dex gets replaced with the animals stats, and I keep Int/wis/cha, so even if i have 8 str/dex and turn into a dire ape i can rip stuff apart. But con... some sources say I keep my druid con, other say i take on the con of the animal.

b) "gear becomes nonfunctional", i assume that counts for both AC and magical bonus of any kind?

c) There's armor for animals I think, but is it worth getting it?

d) "The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level." Does that mean a level 5 druid can't shapeshift into an animal (even if its medium) that has 6+ HD (acording to MM), or only that he then would only have 5 HD? (I assume the former)

e) Turned around, a level 10 druid wildshapes into a wolf (2 HD). Now he got 2 HD himself? (again I guess so)

f) I read somewhere "Don't bother with Str, later you spend the better part of the day as a dragon anyway". I thought Dragons are of the dragon type and not animals or elementals?

g) Last one: I can't speak as an animal... but can I cheat and use my paw to write in the sand? or something similar? knock on wood in morse code or whatever?

a.)You keep your current and max HP values. You gain the CON of the Animal for modifier purposes. (Concentrate skill, fort saves, Con Checks.) (At least, I THINK that's how it works)
b.) Yes.
C.) Too dependant on the situation to really give a good answer.
d.)the former.
e.)No, still 10
f.) Most likely they're talking about the Shapechange Spell. Also, Dragon Wild Shape Epic Feat.
g.) Yes, you can still write. Legibility is another issue altogether.

[Morquard]

Thank you once again Blackfang108.

The part you're confusing is that the level adjustment of -3 is for the bonuses granted by the table. (Note: you can alleviate this penalty by taking the Natural Bond feat CAdv p111)

Ok, I just read up on the feat and it gives +3 to the effective level. So for an ape at level 4, it would let my full levels count.
Would the ape then have 6 HD at 4th level, or would it just gain the Evasion feat? (I don't think we play with CAdv book, will check, but I'm curious.)

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Ok you started it!
Wildshape then.. .you're right thats even more confusing :)
(since we start at 4th level its not that far into the future I assume, and I should spend some thoughts on it already)

Yes, you should think about it now, because Wildshape determines your stats. Step by step, then.

a) I read different things about Con. I know Str and Dex gets replaced with the animals stats, and I keep Int/wis/cha, so even if i have 8 str/dex and turn into a dire ape i can rip stuff apart. But con... some sources say I keep my druid con, other say i take on the con of the animal.

You keep your same HP but take the Con of the animal. Yes, that's confusing and stupid, but that is the case. Your HP max is in no way changed by Wildshaping.

b) "gear becomes nonfunctional", i assume that counts for both AC and magical bonus of any kind?

Yes. All items you're wearing(other than ones with Wilding Clasps and Wild Armor) stop working. However, you can equip gear after Wildshaping if you have an ally or hands, and the gear will work normally. I recommend a Periapt of Wisdom and Cloak of Resistance initially, and a Monk's Belt ASAP(Magic items resize to fit their wearer, so you can have a small snake or a Huge Bear wearing your belt). Keep in mind that an Amulet of Health or similar will continue to boost your HP even though it technically doesn't boost your Con as long as you have it equipped when you shift. It's the only item you want to be wearing when you do.

c) There's armor for animals I think, but is it worth getting it?

Only if you have a single form, or a small handful of ones you use. It's 2x cost IIRC, and you'd need a new suit for each form you take. Not worth it except for the most basic Light armor

d) "The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level." Does that mean a level 5 druid can't shapeshift into an animal (even if its medium) that has 6+ HD (acording to MM), or only that he then would only have 5 HD? (I assume the former)

Correct. You retain your HD whenever you Wildshape, it's just used to determine what you can turn into.

e) Turned around, a level 10 druid wildshapes into a wolf (2 HD). Now he got 2 HD himself? (again I guess so)

Incorrect. You retain your HD, all the monster's HD does is check to see if you can turn into it.

f) I read somewhere "Don't bother with Str, later you spend the better part of the day as a dragon anyway". I thought Dragons are of the dragon type and not animals or elementals?

Correct, not sure where you read that, but unless you take the MoMF PrC you can't turn into Dragons. Don't boost Str anyways, you'll spend all day as a Bear after level 6.

g) Last one: I can't speak as an animal... but can I cheat and use my paw to write in the sand? or something similar? knock on wood in morse code or whatever?

Yep. I like finding a reliable method of telepathy to open up Mindsight, and just for the clarity, but you can definitely write on the ground and such, or use Drow Sign Language if you're an Ape. I prefer Leopards, personally, but that's due to a love of Pounce more than balance issues.

[Blackfang108]

There's some debate on whether or not it should gain feats.

Quoth the SRD:

An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.

Every three HD, the monster gains feats.

So, where's this debate coming from?

[Moriato]

Quoth the SRD:



Every three HD, the monster gains feats.

So, where's this debate coming from?

Oh, I agree, just a lot of the people I've played with seem to have problems with animals gaining feats. I agree there's no reason they shouldn't, but some people just don't get it.

[Kylarra]

Thank you once again Blackfang108.


Ok, I just read up on the feat and it gives +3 to the effective level. So for an ape at level 4, it would let my full levels count.
Would the ape then have 6 HD at 4th level, or would it just gain the Evasion feat? (I don't think we play with CAdv book, will check, but I'm curious.)

It would have 6 hd (4+2 bonus) as well as gaining the evasion feat.

[Moriato]

It should also be noted that due to errata, you retain your type and suptype when wildshaping. So you aren't subject to animal-only spells while wildshaped

[Blackfang108]

It should also be noted that due to errata, you retain your type and suptype when wildshaping. So you aren't subject to animal-only spells while wildshaped

And you're still subject to Humanoid-only spells while wildshaped.

Assuming you're playing a humanoid race.

[Mando Knight]

It should also be noted that due to errata, you retain your type and suptype when wildshaping. So you aren't subject to animal-only spells while wildshaped

However, to make it useful to shift into a shark, you do gain the Aquatic subtype if the animal has it.

[Eldariel]

Wildshape gives you the following:
-Physical Stats (Str, Dex, Con)
-Size
-Natural Weapons
-Natural Armor
-Aquatic Subtype (obviously only if you shift into something with it)
-Extraordinary Special Attacks (Pounce, Rake, Poison, Improved Grab, Trample, etc. - All Ex-abilities from the Special Attacks-bar)
-Movement Speed & Modes
-+10 to any Disguise-checks to appear as creature of this new form (instead of a Wildshaped Druid)
-Ability to communicate with other animals of his kind

Wildshape retains your original:
-Class-derived abilities
-HP (though your Con may change, you still retain your original HP)
-Hit Dice, Base Attack Bonus, Base Saves (though Fort & Reflex-save stat modifiers may change with your new Dex & Con), Feats & Skills
-Spellcasting (though you need to be able to speak and make gestures to use it - Natural Spell solves this)
-Type, subtype, special qualities, spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities of its original form
-Mental Stats (Int, Wis, Cha)

Wildshape causes you to lose your original:
-Extraordinary special attacks derived from race (but not those derived from class)
-Natural weapons, natural armor and movement modes
-Size (though it may of course remain the same if you change into a creature of equivalent size)
-Ability to speak
-Gear (they meld into your new form unless a magical ability such as Wild-enhancement on an Armor, or an item named Wilding Clasp is used to bypass this; by RAW you may just put on perfectly functional gear in your new form though)
-Physical stats (obviously, 'cause you get new ones from Wildshape)


That should be rather comprehensive.

[Morquard]

Yes, it is, thank you Eldariel!

One last thing is the saves. I've obviously have pretty crappy Fort and Reflex safes, while Will is good.
The base saves stay the same and Fort and Reflex get the Con and Dex bonus from the animal form, instead my own? Will obviously stays the same since I keep my wisdom.

I took 10/10/14 for str/dex/con (turns into 10/12/12 after elf adjustment). I don't wanna be completely fragile in humanoid shape, and not get overloaded too easy either by just having 8 str. Hmm... a thought, can I make my animal companion (who will usually have twice the strenght that I do) to carry part of my equipment, by handing a bag to him/hanging it over his back? (by default or needs a trick)

Ack... that leads my to tricks. Int 2 animals can learn 6 by default right. +1 bonus trick for being a companion. One's attack which it does already know. So 6 more. Do I really have to spend months to teach my companion these tricks, or as an animal companion that goes faster? (and which should I train?)

And when I start, I don't stop asking stupid questions it seems, lol.
Handle Animal is for training pets and all this, can I basicly have more animals following me than just the Animal Companion? They'd not be companions of course and require Handle Animal checks more often I guess, but could I have a pack of dire wolves follow me around for example (if i raised them from scratch)?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Yes, it is, thank you Eldariel!

One last thing is the saves. I've obviously have pretty crappy Fort and Reflex safes, while Will is good.
The base saves stay the same and Fort and Reflex get the Con and Dex bonus from the animal form, instead my own? Will obviously stays the same since I keep my wisdom.

? Your Fort is good progresion. Ref is the only save that should be bad. And yes, you're right about the stats.

I took 10/10/14 for str/dex/con (turns into 10/12/12 after elf adjustment). I don't wanna be completely fragile in humanoid shape, and not get overloaded too easy either by just having 8 str. Hmm... a thought, can I make my animal companion (who will usually have twice the strenght that I do) to carry part of my equipment, by handing a bag to him/hanging it over his back? (by default or needs a trick)

Yes, your AC can carry gear for you, and IIRC there's no need for a trick.

Why the 10 Dex? Your AC will probably be pretty low until you can Wildshape due to the poor armor choices. You want every point of Con you can get.

Ack... that leads my to tricks. Int 2 animals can learn 6 by default right. +1 bonus trick for being a companion. One's attack which it does already know. So 6 more. Do I really have to spend months to teach my companion these tricks, or as an animal companion that goes faster? (and which should I train?)

Teach it the ones you expect to use in combat. The out-of-combat tricks you can Push the AC into. And it will take a while to train, which is why you are glad to be starting at a level where you "got it done already". And 6 weeks isn't too long.

Handle Animal is for training pets and all this, can I basicly have more animals following me than just the Animal Companion? They'd not be companions of course and require Handle Animal checks more often I guess, but could I have a pack of dire wolves follow me around for example (if i raised them from scratch)?

Yes, but remember that while there is a WBL mechanic, there's no "Pet by level". Your access to pets would be wholly dependent on your DM, and most available wouldn't be worth it anyways. After all, you already take 2 turns a round, do you really need more rolls? . And while Handle Animal does work for domestication, you'd still need to capture them and devote the time and effort to training.

[Morquard]

? Your Fort is good progresion. Ref is the only save that should be bad. And yes, you're right about the stats. Yes, your AC can carry gear for you, and IIRC there's no need for a trick.

You're of course right. Fort isn't as crappy as Ref, but still worse than Will. since my Con is lower. I'm just level 4, so 2 (ref), 5 Fort, 8 Will seems like alot of difference, later those 3 don't really matter anymore.

Why the 10 Dex? Your AC will probably be pretty low until you can Wildshape due to the poor armor choices. You want every point of Con you can get.

So is your point here: "Why bother with 10 Dex anyway, leave it at 8, your AC is gonna suck no matter what" or "Your AC is so low you need every Dex, take 12 or 14"?
We're using 32 point buy, so I took 10/10/14/14/18/8 (yeah I know 14 int isn't necessary, but I like skillpoints ;) if I drop 2 dex and 2 int i could get 16 con. Or str. if my AC can carry stuff, str isn't that important anymore, so I might just do that)

Teach it the ones you expect to use in combat. The out-of-combat tricks you can Push the AC into. And it will take a while to train, which is why you are glad to be starting at a level where you "got it done already". And 6 weeks isn't too long.

Ok. So Attack (2x to attack everything), Down, Stay. Defend and Guard sound useful too. Thats 6. Hm... last one. Come? Heel?

Yes, but remember that while there is a WBL mechanic, there's no "Pet by level". Your access to pets would be wholly dependent on your DM, and most available wouldn't be worth it anyways. After all, you already take 2 turns a round, do you really need more rolls? . And while Handle Animal does work for domestication, you'd still need to capture them and devote the time and effort to training.

Yeah I don't really plan on doing it I was just curious if you could build an army, if the DM allows it.
And I guess I really have enough on my hands already, rolling for myself, my animal companion, and I guess if I want to push it for 1d4+1 Nature Ally's summons :)

[Navigator]

...extra stat every 4 levels...

Bonus HD

Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.

As far as RAW is concerned, I don't think you actually get the extra stat point. Everything except the extra stat point is mentioned, which is what makes me believe the companions don't get it.

On the other hand, you could read the first line, "Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal". But, I think that would be taken out of context if interpreted to mean everything is normal, as opposed to only hit points.

[Eldariel]

As far as RAW is concerned, I don't think you actually get the extra stat point. Everything except the extra stat point is mentioned, which is what makes me believe the companions don't get it.

On the other hand, you could read the first line, "Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal". But, I think that would be taken out of context if interpreted to mean everything is normal, as opposed to only hit points.

That's a reminder text; I wouldn't put too much weight on it. For example, Dire Animals have good Will-save progression and yet that omits to mention that some animals get good Will-saves from HD.

Though of course, as the creature's stats are already improving, I could see the ruling that Animal Companion doesn't get additional points from the level-ups.