How Do You Balance Out Your Saves?

[Maerok]

Let's say you've added up your basic modifiers and you have one low save (~+4), a medium save (~+8), and a high save (~+12). Let's also say that the character is mid-levelish.

If you were to take one of the +2 to a save feats, would you personally try to:
Maximize that high save to even greater levels;
Try to bring up the not so bad medium save;
or Attempt to cover up a short-coming with the low save?

It probably depends on which save is which (Fort, Ref, Will), but I was just curious about a more general preference among people.

[ZeroNumerous]

With an item of the ToB save maneuvers. Or, if possible, a level of warblade.

[Mongoose87]

I'd pretty much never take that feat, but, if I had to, I'd probably boost the low one.

[Milskidasith]

Reflex saves are worth crap.

[elliott20]

If anything, I've learned from watching some of the Char-Op people here that there are far more effective ways to boost your saves than by burning a feat on the +2 save. i.e. steadfast determination, if you already have endurance, will allow you to add your CON bonus to your Will save.

[Fax Celestis]

The Unbelievable Luck feat gives you two luck rerolls and gives you a +2 luck bonus to your lowest save as long as you have a reroll left. Couple that with one other luck feat that you really really like (like, say, Lucky Start to be able to reroll initiatives, or Victor's Luck to reroll crit confirmations) and you're in business. If you're ECL 9+, you could even go Unbelievable Luck + Survivor's Luck and spend your rerolls to reroll saving throws--which you could use to back up your weaker saves.

[Saph]

My usual attitude is that since save effects get thrown at the party pretty indiscrimiately, boosting any save is good, so I'd take whatever gave me the greatest numerical bonus. If you're getting to the point where one save is 10ish points above the others, though, it's time to start boosting the weak ones.

Reflex saves are worth crap.

As a DM, I get a very, very evil smile when I hear players say things like that.

- Saph

[Proven_Paradox]

To answer the original question, it would entirely depend on which save is which. If that low save is will or fort, then definately pump it. If it's reflex, let it rot--with saves that low, I'm either playing a character with high enough HP to be able to afford a few failed ref saves, or something with spells so I shouldn't be in range of them anyway. In that case, I'd pump my medium save. If it's fort or will though, I'm definitely going to try and get that higher.

But as others have said, there are better ways to get saves increased than feats usually.

[Milskidasith]

Compared to other saves... yeah, they pretty much are. At the point where your tank will be killed by a bad reflex save from one trap, your squishy characters will be killed by a success (unless they have evasion). Even with high damage, there are enough simple tricks to avoid death by damage that boosting the other saves is about 20x as important.

Unless you have traps that are instant death on a failed reflex save or something.

[Mando Knight]

As a DM, I get a very, very evil smile when I hear players say things like that.

As does every Dragon. And every Evoker, who suddenly becomes a fearful being as sonic-substituted Fireballs start targeting a save that you haven't buffed.

[Milskidasith]

As does every Dragon. And every Evoker, who suddenly becomes a fearful being as sonic-substituted Fireballs start targeting a save that you haven't buffed.

Delay Death. Wand of Eternal Beastland Ferocity, caster level... hell, let's make it 3, that's still a drop in the bucket for somebody who can cast delay death. Suddenly every reflex save is pointless because they can end the encounter and chug a few CSW potions and be back on their feat.

[Talic]

Reflex saves are less valuable than the others, but are still important.

Note: Memorizing spells with a Reflex save isn't that good, because they tend to be damage, and damage tends to be less effective than save or suck/lose/die.

That said, damage can drop players effectively. Players don't have hundreds of HP more than their opponents. Several critters have as many HP as the entire party, at the levels you'd face them.

Players, are somewhat more vulnerable to HP damage... And monster reflex save effects tend to be stronger than most spells.

[jmbrown]

Thanks to the gradual progression of save DCs, it's more beneficial to improve your good saves over your poor saves. The DC will raise faster per level than you can ever improve a poor save without singular means IE feat progression and magic items which are resources best spent elsewhere.

[Milskidasith]

I'm not saying that reflex saves are unimportant, they are just easily negated and when you have to choose which save to boost, I'd rather be better at resisting the effects that would make me kill other party members or die instantly.

[Talic]

Magic item boosts to saves are some of the most cost effective items out there. They simultaneously boost all saves, and are cheaper than most enhancement items out there.

Cloak of Resistance: 1k-25k - +1 - +5 to all saves

Periapt of Wisdom: 4k-36k - +1-3 to will saves (good if you need it anyway, for a cast stat)

Gloves of Dex:4k-36k - +1-3 on reflex saves (good for characters with weapon finesse, or who regularly ranged attack. Also boosts AC, initiative)

Amulet of Health: 4k-36k - +1-3 on fort saves. Also boosts HP. Good for any character.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Delay Death. Wand of Eternal Beastland Ferocity, caster level... hell, let's make it 3, that's still a drop in the bucket for somebody who can cast delay death. Suddenly every reflex save is pointless because they can end the encounter and chug a few CSW potions and be back on their feat.

*claps*

I wonder who showed you that...

But seriously, I see where both of you are coming from. In most standard campaigns, Reflex saves are not worth nearly as much as the others, because a little HP damage doesnt do much. In Red Hand of Doom, which Saph wrote a campaign diary for...Dragon here, dragon there...oh, heres a party of a few evokers...there were twice as many deaths from Reflex saves as there were from other things, IIRC.

[Milskidasith]

Or you could get that one item that boots all stats by 6 for... what was the price on that again? I remember it was pretty low compared to how the item should have been. (Then again, if you aren't a caster the bonus to Int is pretty worthless because you don't get more skill points from it.)

EDIT: Also, I bow to the master, Olo. >_>

[Talic]

I'm not saying that reflex saves are unimportant, they are just easily negated and when you have to choose which save to boost, I'd rather be better at resisting the effects that would make me kill other party members or die instantly.

Death Ward, Protection from X.

Such effects are easily negated, at higher levels.

[Curmudgeon]

You can get a lot more with a 1-level class dip than you can with a feat like that. I like Rogues. Often I multiclass them with (Cloistered) Cleric. The Cleric's 2 good saves offset the Rogue's 2 weak saves. But I can also pick domains like Pride, which gives me a reroll on any 1 on a save, once per save. And another domain, which could grant a feat, or be converted into a domain feat. And spells, which do a lot -- like Resistance, to boost all saves. And turn undead, which can power a bunch of different abilities.

[Maerok]

My usual attitude is that since save effects get thrown at the party pretty indiscrimiately, boosting any save is good, so I'd take whatever gave me the greatest numerical bonus. If you're getting to the point where one save is 10ish points above the others, though, it's time to start boosting the weak ones.



As a DM, I get a very, very evil smile when I hear players say things like that.

- Saph

Well that was the heart of my question. Do you cut your losses with lesser saves and continue to max out the good one?

[Frosty]

When my PCs don't boost Ref saves, I sometimes hit them with Otiluke's Resilient Sphere. Reflex save-or-be-out-of-battle spell.

[Talic]

When my PCs don't boost Ref saves, I sometimes hit them with Otiluke's Resilient Sphere. Reflex save-or-be-out-of-battle spell.

Wall of Stone can do it too.

[Saph]

My favourite is Wings of Flurry. Sorcerer spell, deals level x d6 in damage, Reflex half, if you fail your save you're dazed for a round. Pair it up with Ray of Clumsiness, maybe some Enervations.

So first you debuff their Reflex save, then zap them with Wings of Flurry for a bucketful of d6s of damage. Failed save? You're dazed, miss a turn. Next round, do it again. Repeat until they die.

Well that was the heart of my question. Do you cut your losses with lesser saves and continue to max out the good one?

I wouldn't call it cutting your losses. Unless your worst save is truly, utterly awful, you're still not going to need a 20 to pass the DC against an effect. So each +1 is an extra 5% chance of saving. That's always worth it.

[ericgrau]

Death Ward, Protection from X.

Such effects are easily negated, at higher levels.

You mean delay death, which is a splatbook spell that still leaves you with that little annoyance of being taken out of the combat. Death ward is unrelated, except that it protects against SoD's (usually fort). And other spells protect against charm & domination (will), and many, many other effects. Protection from X doesn't work against Y, as there are 5-6 energy types and AFAIK you can only have 2 protections up. Then there are non-damaging reflex SoS's like resilient sphere and walls. But "so what?" to all the protections. You can't be ready for everything with only N spell slots, just some things. I'm amused (y so srs?) at how arrogant such comments are in contrast to what happens in most real games. Congrats at saying "I'm right" louder than anyone else on the internet. But if I play or should I ever DM, I pay attention to points that have something comprehensive backing them up, and I just plain ignore the nitpicks I've heard that might work a small fraction of the time. Bandwagon notwithstanding.

But back to the main topic. Let's say your weak save fails 60% of the time, your medium save fails 50% of the time, and your strong save fails 40% of the time. Assuming they're all targeted equally, you fail an average of 50% of saves and boosting any one of the 3 affects that average equally. If one save is targetted more, or if one save tends to kill people more, then likewise it's better to boost that save. So the answer is that you boost the save that comes up most often in your campaign regardless of which save is your high save. Unless you've dropped failure is at 5% or it's at 95% and it won't change anyway. But that'd require a +9/-9 outside of normal, so it's unlikely even with your high/low save. So see how your campaign / DM is, and boost accordingly.

[Curmudgeon]

Protection from X doesn't work against Y, as there are 5-6 energy types and AFAIK you can only have 2 protections up.

No, you can protect against all 5 energy types simultaneously. There's no stacking problem with multiple different effects, even if they come from the same spell. You'll just burn through your spells 5 times faster.

If the same spell couldn't be used multiple times with different effects, then everyone would want to get a friend to Bestow Curse with something innocuous (like "sneezes once at the full moon") to prevent against getting a worse curse bestowed. But different curses (different effects) are compatible. And so are different energy protections.

[Kaiyanwang]

Reflex saves are worth crap.

Well, of course is the generally the less letal save to fail.

On the other hand, those with evasion can avoid the whole damage, and so avoid the loss of party resources (I.e, healing).

And.. a friend of mine had a powerful rogue, epic. I remember the face of other players when they discovered that he was able to "dodge" vs will and vs fortitude attacks (1/round each) with a reflex save

[AslanCross]

As a DM, I get a very, very evil smile when I hear players say things like that.

- Saph

Likewise. My players groan most whenever I ask them to make reflex saves.

[Gorbash]

Unless you've dropped failure is at 5% or it's at 95% and it won't change anyway. But that'd require a +9/-9 outside of normal, so it's unlikely even with your high/low save.

Well, it's not that unlikely. Many characters that have 2-3 prestige classes with same save progression suck at 1-2 saves. Rogue builds suck at Will, Bard builds suck at fort, Wizard builds suck at reflex and it's not unlikely they won't have a save around 6-7 even at 15th lvl (from experience with my own gaming group). And with some DCs being around 26-30 at that time, +1 ain't going to change anything. Or +5, for that matter.

As a DM, I get a very, very evil smile when I hear players say things like that.

I almost always target PCs who'll most likely fail. Like the bard and rogue mentioned above. Then they groan and moan that I'm metagaming (imagine that), and then I remind them they do that almost all the times with some crazy OOC tactics.

[Talic]

You mean delay death, which is a splatbook spell that still leaves you with that little annoyance of being taken out of the combat.

No. I mean Death Ward. I was discussing the desire to buff will and fort to not be one-shot-killed or controlled. Both obviate the need for saves in their respective case.

There are a lot of ways to get around the taken out of combat part, BTW.

Death ward is unrelated, except that it protects against SoD's (usually fort). And other spells protect against charm & domination (will), and many, many other effects. Protection from X doesn't work against Y, as there are 5-6 energy types and AFAIK you can only have 2 protections up.

Protection from X protects from all forms of ongoing control, regardless of alingnment. So Protection from Law prevents Dominate Monster from affecting you (at least, for the duration of the Protection from X spell).

Then there are non-damaging reflex SoS's like resilient sphere and walls. But "so what?" to all the protections. You can't be ready for everything with only N spell slots, just some things. I'm amused (y so srs?) at how arrogant such comments are in contrast to what happens in most real games.

Or how inaccurate the rebuttals are? I mean, really, when a 1st level spell blocks any kind of compulsion effect? That's solid. Death Ward is more situational, but still a part of the Adventurer's bible.

Congrats at saying "I'm right" louder than anyone else on the internet. But if I play or should I ever DM, I pay attention to points that have something comprehensive backing them up, and I just plain ignore the nitpicks I've heard that might work a small fraction of the time. Bandwagon notwithstanding.

I did like how you told me what I meant before you refuted it. My points stand well without you changing them, thank you.

But back to the main topic. Let's say your weak save fails 60% of the time, your medium save fails 50% of the time, and your strong save fails 40% of the time. Assuming they're all targeted equally, you fail an average of 50% of saves and boosting any one of the 3 affects that average equally. If one save is targetted more, or if one save tends to kill people more, then likewise it's better to boost that save. So the answer is that you boost the save that comes up most often in your campaign regardless of which save is your high save. Unless you've dropped failure is at 5% or it's at 95% and it won't change anyway. But that'd require a +9/-9 outside of normal, so it's unlikely even with your high/low save. So see how your campaign / DM is, and boost accordingly.

Or provide a strong save, an average save, and a trump card for the third save, such as the following:

Paladin/Warblade. Good con, decent Cha. Say a fort of +13, Ref +5, Will +9.

Has Action Before Thought, 8 ranks in Cha, and a Con of 16.
Now he's got a reflex replacement of +11.

So now all three of his saves are covered, to some extent (reflex is vulnerable to multiple effects per round, but otherwise, is pretty good).

That's a solid defense.

[Navigator]

I like to keep them even, all things considered. Reflex saves are definitely worth less than Fortitude and Will simply because if you fail a Reflex save, it usually doesn't mean automatic death.

When I start to creep into upper levels as a player, I end up picking up some immunities which alleviates the need for stellar Fort/Will saves. I also like to keep them even because people in my gaming circle aren't shy about picking on weaknesses when running, and I like to have my bases covered.