[3.5] Would this make Bards overpowered?

[Frosty]

If I've got a player who wishes to trade away Bard spellcasting for something that would really shine in the "party support" and "party leader" role, and he doesn't want to mess with multiclassing, would these changes be good? He wants a 4e "Warlord" feel I think. I know this is likely stronger than the standard bard unless you optimize spellcasting, but we all know the spells are broken in 3.5 anyways.

Lose all Spellcasting, including the ability to use wands, scrolls, etc unless the bard uses Use Magic Device.

Gain all class abilities of the Marshall class (the auras, the granting of move actions, etc, but not skills or saves).

Gain a maneuver progression that probably has a bit less maneuvers known than the Warblade. The only discipline the Bard gains access to is White Raven.

[RTGoodman]

Instead of trying to mess around with the Bard, what about trying the Sublime Way Marshal variant from Tempest Stormwind over on the WotC boards?

It's pretty much THE 3.x Warlord, I think.

(There's also a variant Paladin I made a while back that gives up spellcasting for Marshal auras, but I haven't playtested or anything. You can find it in my homebrew compendium in my sig.)

[Glyde]

Sounds fairly powerful. I would probably take a look at the Marshal stuff and finely pick out stuff. I agree about the white raven stuff, though.

I like where this thread is going. I need mundane bard-types for a sci-fi setting I'm working on.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Marshal stuff in addition to Bardic music in addition to 9th level maneuvers in exchange for 6th level spells from the Bard list? A bit much in my mind.

Perhaps either the Warblade's maneuvers (White Raven only), or trading spells and some bardic music abilities for the Marshal's abilities and maneuvers at, say, a 3/4th rate (maxing out at 8th level maneuvers and an Initiator level of 15).

[Frosty]

Sounds fairly powerful. I would probably take a look at the Marshal stuff and finely pick out stuff. I agree about the white raven stuff, though.

I like where this thread is going. I need mundane bard-types for a sci-fi setting I'm working on.

You're right. There is already a White Raven maneuver that lets all of his allies Move anyways, so I don't need to give the Bard the Marshall version of it.

[Glyde]

You could have it so some of the marshal stuff or maybe even some of the maneuvers expend a usage of bardic music. I don't know about the marshal too much, as I haven't taken a very long look at it.

[Keld Denar]

It would be ok. The only problem is that you'd have to change your bonus type. As it stands, EVERY bonus that a Marshal gives is a Moral bonus. Inspire Courage is a Moral bonus. No point in getting a +6 bonus to damage when flanking if you are already getting a +4 bonus to damage from bard song that doesn't stack.

Look up Tempest Stormwind's Sublime Marshal on Gleemax. Its basically what you are trying to do, except it trades out its suplimental martial discipline for Bardic Music and Knowledge (Normally Sublime Marshal gets White Raven + one other discipline). I think its a little much on the powerful side, especailly if you are in a melee heavy group.

[Lord Loss]

I would do it like this:

Level 1: First Level Bard Abilities

Level 2: First Level Marshal Abilities

Level 3: Second Level Bard & Marshal Abilities

Level 4: Third Level Bard Abilities

Level 5: Third level Marshal Abilities

Level 6: Fourth Level Bard & Marshal Abilities

Level 7: Fifth Level Bard Abilities

Level 8: Fifth Level Marshal Abilities

Level 9: Sixth Level Bard & Marshal Abilities

Level 10: Seventh Level Bard Abilities

Level 11: Seventh level Marshal Abilities

Level 12: Eighth Level Bard & Marshal Abilities

Level 13: Ninth Level Bard & Marshal Abilities

Level 14: Ninth & Tenth level bard Abilities

Level 15: Eleventh Level bard/ Ninth Level marshal Abilities

Level 16: Twelfth and Thirteenth Level bard Abilities

Level 17: Fourteenth Level Bard/ Tenth Level Marshal Abilities

Level 18: 15 and 16 Level Bard Abilities

Level 19:17th & 18 lvl Bard

Level 20:19+20 Lvl bard

No casting

[Frosty]

It would be ok. The only problem is that you'd have to change your bonus type. As it stands, EVERY bonus that a Marshal gives is a Moral bonus. Inspire Courage is a Moral bonus. No point in getting a +6 bonus to damage when flanking if you are already getting a +4 bonus to damage from bard song that doesn't stack.

Look up Tempest Stormwind's Sublime Marshal on Gleemax. Its basically what you are trying to do, except it trades out its suplimental martial discipline for Bardic Music and Knowledge (Normally Sublime Marshal gets White Raven + one other discipline). I think its a little much on the powerful side, especailly if you are in a melee heavy group.

Maybe a Inspiration bonus But then Factotums will complain.

But you know, if it's a melee-heavy group, your group probably isn't overpowered anyways, since it's still not 9th level spells

[tyckspoon]

Marshal stuff in addition to Bardic music in addition to 9th level maneuvers in exchange for 6th level spells from the Bard list? A bit much in my mind.

I disagree. The Marshal's abilities are really quite weak (probably the most powerful is Motivating Dex to increase people's initiative checks.) If you switch those for all of the Bard's spellcasting, you end up with a very lamed class. And it's not '9th level maneuvers'; it's White Raven and only White Raven. Which is one of the better disciplines, but it's not going to break a character unless the DM allows infinite White Raven Tactics looping. Almost all of the most powerful White Raven strikes require you to go and hit the enemy to make them work, and the d6 HD, light armored 3/4 BAB Bard with no buffing magic and no defensive Maneuvers (Iron Heart and Diamond Mind have most of the Counters) is not going to enjoy that.

I think the biggest problem with the idea is actually just that- White Raven encourages a very lead-from-the-front style, which clashes with the Bard's design as more of a supportive secondary combatant.

[ZeroNumerous]

Inspire Courage is a Moral bonus.

Dragonfire Inspiration!

[vampire2948]

There is a feat on the sublime way marshal variant that changes its auras to either a competence of an insight bonus, chosen when you activate the aura.

So.. you can use other things along with the auras if you take that feat. e.g. bardic music.

I'm playing a Sublime Way marshal in an upcoming campaign, looks pretty shiny. And it won't be overpowered, I think - We have a pretty caster-heavy group.

[Frosty]

I disagree. The Marshal's abilities are really quite weak (probably the most powerful is Motivating Dex to increase people's initiative checks.) If you switch those for all of the Bard's spellcasting, you end up with a very lamed class. And it's not '9th level maneuvers'; it's White Raven and only White Raven. Which is one of the better disciplines, but it's not going to break a character unless the DM allows infinite White Raven Tactics looping. Almost all of the most powerful White Raven strikes require you to go and hit the enemy to make them work, and the d6 HD, light armored 3/4 BAB Bard with no buffing magic and no defensive Maneuvers (Iron Heart and Diamond Mind have most of the Counters) is not going to enjoy that.

I think the biggest problem with the idea is actually just that- White Raven encourages a very lead-from-the-front style, which clashes with the Bard's design as more of a supportive secondary combatant.

True, but then, one can always take a one-level dip (Warblade, for example) to get better proficiencies...and hey look, now you can have access to some of those awesome counters while fighting in your Mithril Full-plate!

Oh, what should the recovery mechanism be? I'm thinking Crusader style?

[Book Wyrm]

I know you said no multiclassing, but a Bard 2 or 3/Warblade or Crusader focused on White Raven maneuvers with the Song of the White Raven feat is basically what you described. The feat stacks Warblade or Crusader levels with Bard levels to determine the amount of bonus Inspire Courage gives and if you really need more than 2 or 3 uses of bardic music per day he could pick up Extra Music. And thats all published material instead of homebrewed.

[Doc Roc]

Every time someone mentions dragonfire inspiration, I grow in power.
Stormwind's stuff is generally good. I'd be willing to roll with just it. Bear in mind it's meant to exist in Wizzo-world, like most of my stuff.

[Lord Loss]

Book Wyrm's idea works. Epically.

[ericgrau]

The Marshall class is already mid BAB, so allowing all his abilities on top of bard mid BAB and bard abilities sounds like a bit much. That still leaves skills & music. Depending on your campaign skills may be unimportant and music is kinda weak, so it may not matter. But, then, if those things are unimportant then why not ditch them and just be a marshall?

[Frosty]

The Marshall class is already mid BAB, so allowing all his abilities on top of bard mid BAB and bard abilities sounds like a bit much. That still leaves skills & music. Depending on your campaign skills may be unimportant and music is kinda weak, so it may not matter. But, then, if those things are unimportant then why not ditch them and just be a marshall?

Cuz Marshall sucks balls on it own? Even a Bard//Marshall gestalt is not that strong if there's no spellcasting.

[ericgrau]

Well if so bardic music & skills wouldn't fix that anyway. The bonuses still seem fairly substantial. And the versatility to, say, giving the caster a massive boost to break SR when needed seems handy. But maybe it's not good enough in a small party and it's better for a larger group.

[sofawall]

Every time someone mentions dragonfire inspiration, I grow in power.
Stormwind's stuff is generally good. I'd be willing to roll with just it. Bear in mind it's meant to exist in Wizzo-world, like most of my stuff.

Every time someone says Dragonfire Inspiration, I fondly look back on my 192d6 damage.

I laugh when people say bards are weak, when all splatbooks are in, at least.

[Eldariel]

Every time someone says Dragonfire Inspiration, I fondly look back on my 192d6 damage.

I laugh when people say bards are weak, when all splatbooks are in, at least.

Laugh? I cry, for it reminds me of ignorance.

[Frosty]

Can I make a good dragon-fire Inspiration Bard-Blade if I'm not allowed to use campaign-specific materials or Words of Creation?

I kinda want to try an archery-focused Bard-blade.

[Doc Roc]

Laugh? I cry, for it reminds me of ignorance.

Or a core only mind-set.

[Keld Denar]

Can I make a good dragon-fire Inspiration Bard-Blade if I'm not allowed to use campaign-specific materials or Words of Creation?

I kinda want to try an archery-focused Bard-blade.

Yea, all you really lose from campaign specific is Song of the Heart. Granted, thats almost a free +1, but still...If you are ditching Spellcasting too, you also loose Inspirational Boost. By that point, you really only have a MW Instrument and a Badge of Valor adding to your IC...Thats kinda...low. I mean, you'd be rocking about 3d6 between levels 3 and 7, and then 4d6 at 8...thats decent, but could be 2 points higher. Also, MW instrument causes issues with your hands...hard to hold a bow and a mandolin at the same time...

If you can get some home brew, swap out like, Iron Heart in your Warbladeage for Fax's Falling Star discipline. Its archery based and does stuff like add more elemental damage to your arrows, give you bonuses to hit, and apply some minor status effects like Flat Footed or Blinded.

Pretty slick stuff.

[Doc Roc]

I vote that you get a Bow of Force, Hank-style, and build your mandolin around it.

[RTGoodman]

I vote that you get a Bow of Force, Hank-style, and build your mandolin around it.

You rang?

Seriously, if I were to ever build a 3.x archer, I'd probably petition the DM to let me have that. It's a pretty sweet item.

[Frosty]

Yea, all you really lose from campaign specific is Song of the Heart. Granted, thats almost a free +1, but still...If you are ditching Spellcasting too, you also loose Inspirational Boost. By that point, you really only have a MW Instrument and a Badge of Valor adding to your IC...Thats kinda...low. I mean, you'd be rocking about 3d6 between levels 3 and 7, and then 4d6 at 8...thats decent, but could be 2 points higher. Also, MW instrument causes issues with your hands...hard to hold a bow and a mandolin at the same time...

If you can get some home brew, swap out like, Iron Heart in your Warbladeage for Fax's Falling Star discipline. Its archery based and does stuff like add more elemental damage to your arrows, give you bonuses to hit, and apply some minor status effects like Flat Footed or Blinded.

Pretty slick stuff.

Two separate issues. The bard I might want to build for a separate game will have spellcasting, so Inspirational Boost will be in effect. The problem is, the DM I play with (when I am a player and not a DM) often limits equipment, so I can't count on a MW instrument, a Badge of Valor, or a Vest of Legend.

I need to find a class that doesn't care about how much equipment a GM allows or which animals I can wildshape into. We're also using Pathfinder rules so I'll need to see what they did to the Druid.

[Doc Roc]

You rang?

Seriously, if I were to ever build a 3.x archer, I'd probably petition the DM to let me have that. It's a pretty sweet item.

Hank-style needs to be a specific combat style.

[Eldariel]

Or a core only mind-set.

That is another thing I never understood, but mayhap this thread is the wrong place to discuss that.