[d20r, Skill] Grapple

[Fax Celestis]

Grapple (Str; Armor Check Penalty)
The Grapple skill can be used to hang on to something (or someone), or to attempt to wrestle an opponent. You must have at least one hand free to utilize this skill.

Grappling
You can use the Grapple skill to attempt to wrestle with a creature.

Use
Each creature has a Grapple Defense (or GD), equal to 10 plus their Strength or Dexterity modifier (whichever is higher). Add to this any Dodge bonuses the defender has, and add a size modifier based on the difference in size between the attacker and defender (as shown below):

{table=head]Difference in Size | Bonus to GD
Same size | +0
One size apart | +1
Two sizes apart | +2
Three sizes apart | +3
Four sizes apart | +4
Five sizes apart | +5
Six sizes apart | +6
Seven sizes apart | +7
Eight sizes apart | +8[/table]

To grapple a creature, you must be within melee range. To initiate a grapple, roll a Grapple check against their GD as a standard action. If you succeed, you are considered holding the creature.

When you secure a hold on an opponent, you may immediately make an opposed Grapple check to begin grappling them. Your opponent may substitute an Acrobatics check if they prefer. If successful, you grapple your opponent. Grappled creatures can undertake only a limited number of actions. They do not threaten any squares, and lose Dexterity bonus to AC. Should you fail, you may try again as a standard action while you maintain your hold. You may not grapple creatures more than two size categories larger than yourself.

To pin an opponent, you must first be grappling your opponent. Once you do, you may make a Grapple check against their GD as a standard action. Your opponent may substitute an Acrobatics or Grapple check if they prefer. If successful, you pin your opponent and next round may attempt to deal damage.

To damage a creature in a grapple, you must first be grappling your opponent--being grappled by an opponent qualifies. Once you do, you may make a Grapple check against their GD as a standard action. Your opponent may substitute an Acrobatics or Grapple check if they prefer. If successful, you deal your unarmed damage. If you have a light weapon in your hands before entering the grapple, you may opt to use that weapon instead. If you can cast spells and have the necessary components in your hand, you may opt to cast a spell instead, but you will have to make a Concentration check to cast your spell (see the Concentration skill) if it has somatic components.

To move your opponent, you must first be grappling your opponent. Once you do, you may make a Grapple check against their GD as a standard action. Your opponent may substitute an Acrobatics or Grapple check if they prefer. If successful, you may move your opponent 5' for each 5 points you exceed their check by. You move with your opponent when you move in this fashion.

To break a grapple, make an Acrobatics or Grapple check against your opponent's last Grapple check result as a standard action. If you exceed their score, you may break the grapple.

You automatically fail a grapple attempt to pin a creature more than two size categories larger than you.

You automatically succeed a grapple attempt to damage or move a creature two or more size categories smaller than you.

Action
Most uses of Grapple to wrestle with an opponent are standard actions. Most uses of Grapple to hold on to an object or creature (or to maintain your grip) are move or swift actions. See each individual use for details.

Try Again
You may try to grapple an opponent each time you have a standard action available.

Hanging On
You can use the Grapple skill to attempt to hold on to an object or a large creature.

Use
One you have established a hold (see "Grappling" above), you may attempt to climb aboard a creature two or more size categories larger than you are as a swift action. To do so, make a Grapple check versus a DC equal to your opponent's Grapple Defense + 10. If you succeed, you climb aboard. Move into your opponent's square. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for this movement. While you are aboard a creature, you move with them to remain in their square.

To maintain your grip on a creature, you must make a Grapple check against a DC equal to your opponent's Grapple Defense + 5. If you fail, you fall off, as described below.

As long as you remain aboard the creature, you move with them and remain in their square. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for moving in this fashion. A creature you are aboard is flat-footed against your attacks and takes a -4 penalty to attack rolls against you. If you attack the creature you are aboard, your critical threat range increases by 1.

You are flat-footed against attacks made by creatures other than the one you are aboard.

If someone attacks you or the creature you are aboard, there is a chance that they will strike the wrong target. Use the following table to determine the chance of an attacker hitting the wrong target:

{table=head]Size Difference | Chance of hitting wrong target
Target is five or more categories smaller | 95%
Target is four categories smaller | 75%
Target is three categories smaller | 60%
Target is within two size categories | 50%
Target is three categories larger | 25%
Target is four categories larger | 10%
Target is five or more categories larger | 5%[/table]

A creature you are aboard can try to shake you off as a standard action. You must make a Grapple check (DC 10 + their Strength modifier + their BAB + their Size bonus) or be thrown off. If the creature charges or changes modes of movement (for example, from a land speed to a fly speed, or a fly speed to a swim speed), you must also make a Grapple check (DC 15 + their Strength modifier + their Size modifier) or be thrown off.

If you are thrown off, you move 5' (to outside of the creature's space), plus an additional 5' for each 5 points you failed the Grapple check by. The creature you were aboard determines what direction you move in. You also take falling damage according to the following table and are prone:

{table=head]Size of creature you were aboard | Falling damage
Large or smaller | No damage
Huge | 2d6
Gargantuan | 4d6
Colossal | 6d6[/table]

Action
Climbing aboard is a swift action after establishing a hold. Maintaining your grip is a move action. Attempting to hang on when a creature is trying to shake you off takes no action.

Try Again
You can attempt as many Grapple checks to climb aboard or initiate a grapple as you have appropriate actions. However, once you fail to hang on or to maintain your grapple on a creature, you must restart the grapple process again in order to use the more in-depth actions.

Grappling an Object
You may use the Grapple skill to attempt to hold on to an object larger than yourself.

Use
Hanging on to an object is much like hanging on to a creature. Establishing a hold on an immobile object requires no action, but does require that the object is capable of being held on to--a wall of force, while substantial and immobile, does not have any surface to cling to and as such cannot be grasped.

Establishing a hold on a mobile object (or a object that is mobile relative to the character, such as a stationary wall next to a falling character) requires a Grapple check against the object's GD. Objects have a base GD of 10, plus 2 for each 10' of relative speed the object is moving. Free-falling objects fall 150' on the first round, and 300' each round thereafter, which means a free-falling character must hit a GD of 40 to catch himself free-falling in the first round and a GD of 70 to catch himself beyond that. A creature who catches himself in this fashion still takes falling damage according to the damage fallen, but only falls half the distance he would have fallen in this round.

Maintaining your grip on an object without support (such as hanging on to a cliff face without pitons or climbing gear) requires a Grapple check versus DC 10 plus the number of previous rounds you have been holding on.

Objects that are particularly easy to grasp (such as a many-limbed tree) can provide a +2 to +5 circumstance bonus on the initial check made to establish a hold, as per the DM's discretion.

Action
Attempting to grasp an object to hang on is a move action.

Special
A creature gains a +1 synergy bonus on Grapple checks for each arm or tentacle in excess of 2 it has.

[Origomar]

Makes more sense than the regular grapple system, meaning i can understand this one lol. But i think you shouldnt be able to substitute your grapple check for the GD, because thats pretty much what GD im interpretting as what its used for, defence against grapples. Also like with tripping someone you might want to make it where they can apply their strength or their dex bonus to GD.


Also how do spells function with this system?

[Ziegander]

No rules for hanging on to objects? I was excited to see that notation in the descriptions of Grapple, and the Hanging On action, but disappointed when I saw nothing about it.

I assume such rules would be useful for hanging on to ledges when falling off a cliff, or into a crevasse, or for hanging on for dear life to avoid being pulled into a void or tornado, etc.

[Yora]

So it's like regular grappling, but when you make your turn during grappling, you also add ranks in the grapple-skill to your roll?

The GD is just a grapple check and taking 10. So if both characters have really high ranks in grapple, they will always make successfull grapple checks when they are active, but always fail when they are passive.
That doesn't seem to well thought of to me.

[Violet Octopus]

For maintaining a grapple, what options are there for the creature being grappled (grapplee?)? Is it the same as 3.5? As written the only way to damage something is to pin it first, if you're being grappled by an enormous monster there's no way to stab it with a dagger.

Does pinning still stop the target from taking actions?

How does a grapplee escape?

The colossus climb aspect seems really solid, a few questions though:

Is climbing aboard a separate action to attempting a hold? Move action could work, but if it's a separate standard action, it wouldn't be possible to climb aboard something moving.

When aboard a creature, it's flat-footed against you and you get a better critical range. Is it just assumed you're striking at its vulnerabilities, wherever they happen to be (reasonable for Huge foes), or would you have to climb to a particular point for some monsters?

Comparing a level 11 fighter-type character against a young adult Red Dragon (CR 13). Assuming you don't drastically alter dragons in d20r, you get the following.
fighter grapple skill bonus = about 22
young adult Red Dragon GD = 22, BAB = +19
procedure:
1) make a hold (Grapple check vs. GD)
2) climb aboard (grapple check vs. GD + 10)
3) every round must hold on (grapple check vs. GD + 5), and maybe get shaken off (grapple vs. GD + creature's BAB.)
4) try to stay on and stab them.

So, 50% chance of climbing aboard, 75% chance of staying on, 5% chance of staying on if the dragon spends a standard action trying to get you off.

Is this intentional, or am I missing something?

[afroakuma]

First, a couple of clarifications:

The skill is still being tinkered with, the numbers still being run.

Grapple defense is different than an opposed Grapple check, since A) it is a static number and B) it gives advantages both to small creatures (who are harder to grab) and large creatures (who are harder to hold on to).

No rules for hanging on to objects? I was excited to see that notation in the descriptions of Grapple, and the Hanging On action, but disappointed when I saw nothing about it.

I assume such rules would be useful for hanging on to ledges when falling off a cliff, or into a crevasse, or for hanging on for dear life to avoid being pulled into a void or tornado, etc.

It'll get there. The toughest thing to nail down was the hows and whys of pulling a Colossus Climb and bringing that to the audience. If Grapple, and not Athletics or a basic Strength check, is responsible for cliffhangers and the like, then I would expect to see it in a later run.

So it's like regular grappling, but when you make your turn during grappling, you also add ranks in the grapple-skill to your roll?

The GD is just a grapple check and taking 10.

No, it isn't, because it eschews Grapple ranks. It's a size-factored Strength check, taking 10.

So if both characters have really high ranks in grapple, they will always make successfull grapple checks when they are active, but always fail when they are passive.
That doesn't seem to well thought of to me.

If both characters have really high ranks in Grapple, then it should surprise nobody that they're both really good grapplers. And yes, against creatures who favor or even need the passive defense, you're almost always going to win.

The other thing is that Grapple is not the most accessible of skills. Few have access to it, but monsters well more than players. Not every character's schtick is "I like to roll around in the mud, wrestling." Some characters' schtick is "I have freedom of movement, so go away."

[Yora]

The problem I see is, that character A can attempt to grapple character B and will always succeed. And then B will try to escap the grapple and also always succeed. Wouldn't it make more sense to just have the first grapple attempt fail?

[Fax Celestis]

The problem I see is, that character A can attempt to grapple character B and will always succeed. And then B will try to escap the grapple and also always succeed. Wouldn't it make more sense to just have the first grapple attempt fail?

Perhaps I should indicate some things:

1. Grapple does not appear on any PC class' skill list: you have to take the (as-of-yet unpublished) Skill Knowledge feat to acquire it. Some monsters will get it.
2. The Improved Grapple feat is gone, replaced by the aforementioned Skill Knowledge feat.
3. If a skill is a class skill and you have at least one rank in it, you may substitute one-half your levels for your ranks when making a check.

[Fax Celestis]

For maintaining a grapple, what options are there for the creature being grappled (grapplee?)? Is it the same as 3.5? As written the only way to damage something is to pin it first, if you're being grappled by an enormous monster there's no way to stab it with a dagger.

How does a grapplee escape?

Ooh, good point, I'll add in the defender stuff. I even have notes for it, I just am a moron and forgot about them.

Does pinning still stop the target from taking actions?

"Pinned" is a status condition. It hasn't changed.

The colossus climb aspect seems really solid, a few questions though:

Is climbing aboard a separate action to attempting a hold? Move action could work, but if it's a separate standard action, it wouldn't be possible to climb aboard something moving.

Hm. I hadn't considered that. I'll clarify.

When aboard a creature, it's flat-footed against you and you get a better critical range. Is it just assumed you're striking at its vulnerabilities, wherever they happen to be (reasonable for Huge foes), or would you have to climb to a particular point for some monsters?

Since D&D doesn't contain facing or called shots (and for good reason: including it is a huge slowdown), I decided to exclude it and represent being at a better vantage to attack in the fashion I did include.

Comparing a level 11 fighter-type character against a young adult Red Dragon (CR 13). Assuming you don't drastically alter dragons in d20r, you get the following.
fighter grapple skill bonus = about 22
young adult Red Dragon GD = 22, BAB = +19
procedure:
1) make a hold (Grapple check vs. GD)
2) climb aboard (grapple check vs. GD + 10)
3) every round must hold on (grapple check vs. GD + 5), and maybe get shaken off (grapple vs. GD + creature's BAB.)
4) try to stay on and stab them.

So, 50% chance of climbing aboard, 75% chance of staying on, 5% chance of staying on if the dragon spends a standard action trying to get you off.

Is this intentional, or am I missing something?

Numbers are being tinkered still. If you want to run maaaaaaaaaaath, I can tune them.

[DragoonWraith]

Why is Grapple on no class skill lists? That seems like an odd choice. Monks are often thought of as Grapplers, for example, and Fighters (I know you don't have the "Fighter", but hang on) were supposed to be capable of becoming masters of one or another of the various combat maneuvers, including Grapple (and hence making a Grappler class perhaps to be expected?).

Other than that, I'm not familiar enough with 3.5 Grapple to judge this version.

[Fax Celestis]

Why is Grapple on no class skill lists? That seems like an odd choice. Monks are often thought of as Grapplers, for example, and Fighters (I know you don't have the "Fighter", but hang on) were supposed to be capable of becoming masters of one or another of the various combat maneuvers, including Grapple (and hence making a Grappler class perhaps to be expected?).

It's a balance thing. With the "substitute half-level for ranks" rule, it'd mean that anyone who happened to have Grapple as a class skill would automatically be fairly good at it. As it stands, in 3.5, in order to be halfway decent at grapping you need to spend a feat on Improved Grapple. In d20r, you spend a feat on Skill Knowledge (Grapple) instead.

As far as "not appearing as a class skill", it essentially means it's not in any basic skill sets. Prestige classes could certainly grant it as a class skill ("The brawler chooses two skill sets, and also receives Grapple as a class skill"), but it's specialized enough that you'll need to train in it.

[Strawman]

It seems strange that small creatures get a bonus to grapple defence.

Imagine a giant holding a goblin in its hand. Now that is a hard grapple to get out of.

[DragoonWraith]

OK... but then its special distinction in that sense makes me think that Grapple isn't really a skill, like the others, it's still a special maneuver that you can now dump skill points into. Are there any other skills that are treated that way?

[afroakuma]

It seems strange that small creatures get a bonus to grapple defence.

Imagine a giant holding a goblin in its hand. Now that is a hard grapple to get out of.

To grapple defense, but not to Grapple itself.

Breaking out of a pin requires a Grapple check, not your grapple defense.

Grapple Defense is checked to see how much momentum you have, how hard it is to grab on to you, and how hard it is to secure a meaningful hold on you. Small creatures have a better grapple defense because they're harder to grab. Once you have them, however... let's just compare it to a parent and a toddler. Squirm all you like, there's no escape.

Note this line above:

You automatically succeed a grapple attempt to damage or move a creature two or more size categories smaller than you.

A giant grappling a goblin can do so effortlessly.

[Fax Celestis]

It seems strange that small creatures get a bonus to grapple defence.

Imagine a giant holding a goblin in its hand. Now that is a hard grapple to get out of.

Smaller creatures are harder to grab on to: there's less of them to hold. Once the hold is established, you don't use your GD anymore: you just use your Acrobatics or Grapple skill.

OK... but then its special distinction in that sense makes me think that Grapple isn't really a skill, like the others, it's still a special maneuver that you can now dump skill points into. Are there any other skills that are treated that way?

Initiative will be, as will Channeling.

[Knave]

I have a simple question. Why isn't this an invest feat?

It has a very special application, but also overlaps with some other skills (hanging on/staying on=climb/balance, for me at least... which are covered by athletics/acrobatics now. Point still stands though). It's also a skill geared towards battle, something I really dislike... it encourages low skill point classes that really only excel at battles to take it, further limiting their access to things that actually have a use outside of battle. Just like tumble, but at least that can be used now outside of battle with acrobatics.

Hmm...

Spending prowess was a problem on low levels anyway, right? So... how about you give the option to spend prowess to improve your grapple, initiative, channeling etc... from the get go? This way everyone can spend their points (including casters who probably won't take battle feats to be improved), as long as there are enough of these "base stats" to improve, and it is also limited by prowess points the same way it is by skill points... except warrior types can actually afford it more than non warrior types and not the other way around.

[Fax Celestis]

I have a simple question. Why isn't this an invest feat?

Monsters, mostly. I don't want to give the Grappling feat to every monster that may need it.

[Knave]

Why not? How's listing a feat worse than listing a skill?

Also: How about the second idea? It's kinda OT, I admit...

[Fax Celestis]

Why not? How's listing a feat worse than listing a skill?

Also: How about the second idea? It's kinda OT, I admit...

I think, at this point, I'm going to go with Grapple as a skill as it is and see how it works in Beta. If it proves buggy, we may try Grapple as a prowess-skill (essentially) instead.

[Knave]

I'm just afraid that you can make it work with skill points (after all, your design/rework portfolio leaves no doubt that you can make things work), and you never actually get to try it with prowess...
which imo would work better both thematically and mechanically

Of course, you probably have your reasons for going with skills, so I'll leave it just that... unless you have an argument to support going with skills over prowess, in which case I'd be happy to read it. Reading dev logs is one of my favourite pastimes.

P.S.: I usually don't use smileys, but the first part sounded far too rude in print, which was not my intention. Thought I'd note that in case you'd think of me as a person who throws around stuff like that without any justification...

...

:D

[Hawriel]

Why is grappling a skill? Why is it a knowledge skill? It is not accademic. Do you have a sword, mace, boxing, archery skill? Why not use BAB, after all combat is what it is for. Do you not use BAB in your system?

[KaganMonk]

I'm pretty sure he does use BAB, however, he's also changing things, trying to find better ways to improve the system.

As for it being a skill, grapple has always been a highly specialized ability anyways. I think Skill Knowledge is just a way to gain different skills as a trained skill. Grapple will be a skill, just like Athletics (or Jump if you only know straight 3.5). It will allow you to focus on it or neglect it, but you can still be halfway decent if you know it but don't concentrate on it. A non-strength character can take the skill and still be good at grappling from the tricks they know. It's still strength based, but mages won't necessarily be horrible at it. It could even reduce MAD with some classes.

[Fax Celestis]

Why is grappling a skill? Why is it a knowledge skill? It is not accademic. Do you have a sword, mace, boxing, archery skill? Why not use BAB, after all combat is what it is for. Do you not use BAB in your system?

Grappling is a skill because it's a trained ability, not one that one should inherently be good at by sake of being strong and big. BAB doesn't enter into the equation for balance reasons, mostly, as well as for ease-of-use.

[Hawriel]

Grappling is a skill because it's a trained ability, not one that one should inherently be good at by sake of being strong and big. BAB doesn't enter into the equation for balance reasons, mostly, as well as for ease-of-use.

That is why I asked if you divided up weapons into skills. Grappling is natural. We do it as kids all the time. Using a sword is a highly trained skill. Its also no whare neer as natural as wrestling. BAB is supposed to represent a characters accumulated knowledge of fighting.

[Violet Octopus]

I should have figured not all the skill uses were up yet. Apologies if I sounded harsh, it wasn't my intent.

Since D&D doesn't contain facing or called shots (and for good reason: including it is a huge slowdown), I decided to exclude it and represent being at a better vantage to attack in the fashion I did include.

Fair enough. It's not like a dragon has exactly one weak spot, and if a monster called for it, it'd be fairly easy to add them on an ad-hoc basis.

Numbers are being tinkered still. If you want to run maaaaaaaaaaath, I can tune them.

I was assuming that you had already put more effort into checking math than my single comparison. It was more to see if I was understanding the skill properly, as well as asking you if its a design goal that monsters of equal or higher CR can shake you off (unless you debuff them first, or are exceptional). Considering it's a standard action, it seems fair.

[Fax Celestis]

I was assuming that you had already put more effort into checking math than my single comparison. It was more to see if I was understanding the skill properly, as well as asking you if its a design goal that monsters of equal or higher CR can shake you off (unless you debuff them first, or are exceptional). Considering it's a standard action, it seems fair.

We did, and we came to the same conclusion.

[lesser_minion]

The only significant issue I can see is with your size bonus to GD table - it seems somewhat strange to arbitrarily rule that creatures of one very specific size are the easiest creatures to grapple. I think that needs to be a rule that takes into account relative size - e.g. "you suffer a -2 penalty to grapple checks to establish a hold for each size category difference between you and your target".

[Fax Celestis]

Made some big updates. Altered GD bonus based on size to be according to difference in size, included rules for holding on to objects, and also typed the action to climb aboard as a swift action (so it's a move to move up to your opponent, a standard to make the hold, and a swift to make the climb aboard).

[imp_fireball]

Makes more sense than the regular grapple system, meaning i can understand this one lol. But i think you shouldnt be able to substitute your grapple check for the GD, because thats pretty much what GD im interpretting as what its used for, defence against grapples. Also like with tripping someone you might want to make it where they can apply their strength or their dex bonus to GD.


Also how do spells function with this system?

I actually found it more complex than the regular system. The regular system merely makes holding a touch attack (which makes a lot more sense; a high DEX character can't slip out of reach in this system), while this one forces players to understand a new table called 'grapple defense' among other things.

[Fax Celestis]

a high DEX character can't slip out of reach in this system

Fixed.

this one forces players to understand a new table called 'grapple defense' among other things.

That "table" is pretty straightforward: count the differences in sizes. That is your size modifier. Add 10 and either your Str or Dex mod (whichever is higher). That is your GD.