An easy way to balance save or suck casters

[derfenrirwolv]

Chips!

I just finished up a d20 modern campaign. Despite the psychics ability to do save or die (or rather, save or start killing your friends for me) the damage types did their fare share of the killing.

The difference is that in d20 modern you get hero points, which we kept track of with poker chips. These can be used to add the best of a certain number of d6's to a roll (1 d6 at first level, the best of multiple d6's at higher levels) If there's a save or suck caster around, the big bads at least save their action points for the spells, meaning they have a much lower chance of being taken out in one shot. The same with the players.

I wonder if adding them to regular 3.5 would help the quadratic wizards linear warriors problem. That and a mechanism for fighting types to move and attack might bring something almost balanced to the game.

[Sinfire Titan]

I prefer extending the casting times. Finger of Death becomes something similar to Channeled Life Theft, but the full 2 round casting time gives you a full-fledged Finger of Death spell. Gives the enemy time to prepare against it while still letting the Caster do something if the enemy actually is immune.

[Myou]

I implemented this idea in my game yesterday, in advance of running Ravenloft. :3

[sofawall]

Sounds like plain-old action points to me.

[Myou]

Sounds like plain-old action points to me.

Basically.

[Doc Roc]

Which.... don't solve the problem. And SoD isn't the problem.

It's partial saves, or no-save-just-suck, or orbs, or large-scale BC spells.

[FMArthur]

I prefer to just keep a big, menacing staff by my seat at all times. Balances casters like you wouldn't believe.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Which.... don't solve the problem. And SoD isn't the problem.

It's partial saves, or no-save-just-suck, or orbs, or large-scale BC spells.

This. Save-or-screwed isn't an issue, really. Heck, that's what Uberchargers and Rogues do, more or less. It's Polymorph, Planar Binding, and Black Tentacles that are the issues.

[sofawall]

I put forward Necropolitan with Dust of Choking and Sneezing. Enemy is stunned for 5d4 rounds, no save.

Just as deadly as a mid level caster, for less than 3k!

[aje8]

Yes.... it's the no save or suck.

Reverse Gravity: Let me explain with a rhyme: If you don't fly, you just die! Nope, I was wrong.

Solid Fog: Saves are overrated.

Black Tentacles: End the encounter. Now!

Enervation: Well..... not quite no save but still close.

SoD's really aren't that great.

With relation to Planar Binding and Polymorph, I'm a heavy optimizer..... but I'd NEVER cast one of these spells. They break the game that much.

[Curmudgeon]

Reverse Gravity: Let me explain with a rhyme: If you don't fly, you just die!

A lot of characters are going to be underwhelmed by this spell. CON-boosted tanks will take the 20d6 and just keep on ticking. Catch a Monk near a wall and they'll scoff in your general direction. Anyone with a Ring of Featherfall will just start peppering you with arrows from their new, elevated vantage point, since you just took them out of range of melee retaliation -- nerfing any chargers on your side. Savvy characters with armor will probably have anti-impact, because that's a flat +2,000 gp to halve damage from falling -- after they take 2d6 off from easy Tumble and Climb checks; so that's only 9d6 total.

[olentu]

A lot of characters are going to be underwhelmed by this spell. CON-boosted tanks will take the 20d6 and just keep on ticking. Catch a Monk near a wall and they'll scoff in your general direction. Anyone with a Ring of Featherfall will just start peppering you with arrows from their new, elevated vantage point, since you just took them out of range of melee retaliation -- nerfing any chargers on your side. Savvy characters with armor will probably have anti-impact, because that's a flat +2,000 gp to halve damage from falling -- after they take 2d6 off from easy Tumble and Climb checks; so that's only 9d6 total.

There are people that use reverse gravity for the falling damage.

[aje8]

A lot of characters are going to be underwhelmed by this spell. CON-boosted tanks will take the 20d6 and just keep on ticking. Catch a Monk near a wall and they'll scoff in your general direction. Anyone with a Ring of Featherfall will just start peppering you with arrows from their new, elevated vantage point, since you just took them out of range of melee retaliation -- nerfing any chargers on your side. Savvy characters with armor will probably have anti-impact, because that's a flat +2,000 gp to halve damage from falling -- after they take 2d6 off from easy Tumble and Climb checks; so that's only 9d6 total.

It's not used for the falling damage..... that would be what we call a blast spell and they suck.

Actually wait..... *looks up spell.* That doesn't do quite what I remember it doing. It's not a (no)SoD, it's just a no save you're out of the combat for a long time (13 round minimum). Never mind, point retracted. Still excelllent but not quite what I said in the previous post. I remebered it killing them if they floated way up without hitting anything...... *facepalm.*

Oh and in response to the monk thing...... not affecting monks is like not affecting blades of grass of to a 13th level caster..... nobody cares. They'll be dead by then.

[Curmudgeon]

IIt's not a (no)SoD, it's just a no save you're out of the combat for a long time (13 round minimum).

Uh, ranged attacks? Sure, it'll do fine against characters only equipped for melee -- but a few dozen arrows can ruin your whole day.

[olentu]

Uh, ranged attacks? Sure, it'll do fine against characters only equipped for melee -- but a few dozen arrows can ruin your whole day.

Well one does not always use the same spell on everything.

[aje8]

Uh, ranged attacks? Sure, it'll do fine against characters only equipped for melee -- but a few dozen arrows can ruin your whole day.

True, if the enemy has some ranged capability.... not spectacular.

However, see: Tarrasque..... against any melee brute, it's insane..... lasts 13 rounds, effects muliplte opponents and ignores SR, Magic Immunity, has no save and all that.

This will win a significant portion of encounters, no save. The rest, it will just kinda be useless. It also gets worse as levels go higher, but even then. Do you realize how many creatures in the MM can fly? This is still insta-rape against a good portion.

[Curmudgeon]

Do you realize how many creatures in the MM can fly? This is still insta-rape against a good portion.

Yeah, that's why I always make higher-level enemies have most of their power from character levels. Keeps things interesting.

[aje8]

Yeah, that's why I always make higher-level enemies have most of their power from character levels. Keeps things interesting.

I obviously meant how FEW monsters in the MM can fly, not how many.

Yes, making the enemies have character levels does even the odds quite a bit. Though you can still reverse gravity their melee brute. Especially as have you seen most fighters with a bow? Unless they're a specalized ranged build, their probably not doing much even if they have a composite longbow as a back-up weapon.

Anyway, I think it's time we stopped derailing the thead with talk of the reverse gravity spell.

[Swiftblu]

Uh, ranged attacks? Sure, it'll do fine against characters only equipped for melee -- but a few dozen arrows can ruin your whole day.

That's what Wind Wall is for. For every weakness that a Wizard spell has, there is a another Wizard spell to eliminate it.

[Curmudgeon]

That's what Wind Wall is for. For every weakness that a Wizard spell has, there is a another Wizard spell to eliminate it.

Frequently, yeah. Of course, a Large creature using a great crossbow is using siege engine-size bolts, and scoffs at your Wind Wall.

[FMArthur]

Frequently, yeah. Of course, a Large creature using a great crossbow is using siege engine-size bolts, and scoffs at your Wind Wall.

I would assume that the Huge creature standing between the wizard and his enemies would provide enough soft cover to make it a rather pointless gesture.

[aje8]

Look, I'm sorry but why would you need two spell slots? If the enemy is optimized for ranged damage, then you use a different spell.

On your average BSF though, that 1d6+8 damage from his composite longbow back-up weapon isn't much of a threat. Espically if you're invisable or have illusions of yourself running around.

[sofawall]

Frequently, yeah. Of course, a Large creature using a great crossbow is using siege engine-size bolts, and scoffs at your Wind Wall.

Wind Wall scoffs unless he is using actual siege weaponry.

Remember, 40 ft. long Greatswords still only threaten 5 ft. when used by Medium creatures. D&D is silly. Houserule if you want, but no matter how big the bolt, Wind Wall smacks it aside unless it's siege weaponry.