The new Pathfinder Power Attack (and Deadly Aim)

[arkol]

Feats here for easy reference:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/f...l#power-attack
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/f...tml#deadly-aim

I would like to hear people's opinions on these...

[Matthew]

Power Attack is interesting; the damage bonus is at least balanced with two handed weapons at a 1:2 and 1:3 rates of exchange. Personally, I still think the 3.0 version was superior.

Deadly Aim is an okay feat, though the lack of ability to choose in either case what penalty you will take is a bit annoying. This does make the "archer" an increasingly specialised role, however.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I don't understand why they removed the versatility of being able to chose for how much to power-attack, you now power-attack full or not.

Deadly aim is a feat that always should have existed.

[arkol]

though the lack of ability to choose in either case what penalty you will take is a bit annoying.

Agrees. But this is easy to deal with. If you're the DM just say you allow it.

However I'm more interested in the limits you now have in doing it. No longer can you shock troop charge your AC to -5 and deal 1 gazzilion damage so that's a nice change but... it also means you can only do a -5 power attack at level 16...

EDIT: Matthew please enlight me. How did PA work in 3.0?

[GoatToucher]

I don't understand why they removed the versatility of being able to chose for how much to power-attack, you now power-attack full or not.

I personally would have no problem houseruling that you could do a lower PA than your full potential: a decreased penalty for the corresponding decreased return.

[Glimbur]

EDIT: Matthew please enlight me. How did PA work in 3.0?

3.0 Power Attack was just -X to hit, +X to damage. No 2:1 return for two handed weapons, no feats to increase the return.

[Yora]

3.0 Power Attack was just -X to hit, +X to damage. No 2:1 return for two handed weapons, no feats to increase the return.

I use 1:1 and 1:1,5 for two-handed weapons.

[Epinephrine]

I like the new power attack, it adds a substantial amount of damage to both 2H and TWF (since you get 2:1 with main weapon and 1:1 with off hand it works out to 3:1 total). The solid bonus damage at a smaller penalty makes the iteratives more likely to hit, though I could see houseruling that people can take less than the maximum penalty.

[Mongoose87]

Definitely like the intent of them (increase melee damage potential), but, like everyone else, no a fan of the mandatory penalty level.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I personally would have no problem houseruling that you could do a lower PA than your full potential: a decreased penalty for the corresponding decreased return.

I believe it's called the obaroni fallacy, the fact that you can houserule it does not make the feat as printed better or less annoying.

[Random NPC]

Agrees. But this is easy to deal with. If you're the DM just say you allow it.

However I'm more interested in the limits you now have in doing it. No longer can you shock troop charge your AC to -5 and deal 1 gazzilion damage so that's a nice change but... it also means you can only do a -5 power attack at level 16...

EDIT: Matthew please enlight me. How did PA work in 3.0?

Funny thing is that shock trooper made fighters actually useful, not useless

[Matthew]

Agrees. But this is easy to deal with. If you're the DM just say you allow it.

However I'm more interested in the limits you now have in doing it. No longer can you shock troop charge your AC to -5 and deal 1 gazzilion damage so that's a nice change but... it also means you can only do a -5 power attack at level 16...

I am going to miss that, I think. Having a fighter charge and kill an ogre, then cleave another all in the same round is very satisfying.

EDIT: Matthew please enlighten me. How did PA work in 3.0?

3.0 Power Attack was just -X to hit, +X to damage. No 2:1 return for two handed weapons, no feats to increase the return.

Indeed; and fighting with two weapons worked somewhat differently, so that Improved Two Weapon Fighting required a Base Attack Bonus of +9.

I use 1:1 and 1:1½ for two-handed weapons.

Yeah, that is a good approach as well, though it tends to mean characters using two handed weapons avoid taking odd penalties when using power attack!

I like the new power attack, it adds a substantial amount of damage to both 2H and TWF (since you get 2:1 with main weapon and 1:1 with off hand it works out to 3:1 total). The solid bonus damage at a smaller penalty makes the iteratives more likely to hit, though I could see houseruling that people can take less than the maximum penalty.

Is there a feat in Pathfinder that allows two weapon fighting to work without a full attack action?

I believe it's called the obaroni fallacy, the fact that you can houserule it does not make the feat as printed better or less annoying.

Depends whether you realised you could house rule it before you gauged how annoyed you were. I can kind of see the point from a simulation point of view as to why the penalties are fixed, the character giving up the same proportion of accuracy in favour of brute strength, regardless of level, but from a game point of view, it cuts down on options.

[arkol]

You don't really need shock trooper to cleave trough Ogres. But yes it helps...

[Thrawn183]

My problem with it is that they gave a lot of classes boosts to their attacks, while simultaneously capping how much you can power attack.

A level 16 fighter with 28 Strength, WF and GWF, a +4 weapon and a Pale Green Ioun Stone (I just built this exact PC as a test of Power Attack actually), has an attack bonus of either +34 or +35, can't remember off the top of my head. But even with power attacking, its best attack hits a CR 17 Marilith on a 2.

Paladins have their Smite Evil to boost their attack rolls (and damage but that's a separate issue), while rangers' favored enemy bonii apply to both attack and damage. To put it simply, yeah your damage output is helped by the increased PA ratio, but there are going to be a lot of times where you will wish you could power attack more.

I mean, what happens when you get buff spells, or debuff the enemy, or just run into an enemy with low AC like oozes and advanced dire animals? You won't be able to power attack any more.

Now, I really like how they made sword and board useful and power attack will work incredibly well with it, but I preferred Pathfinders old method where you were capped to power attacking up to your strength modifier.