[3.5] How do I use Power Attack properly?

[Myou]

I've been playing and DMing for a while, but I still do't really understand how Power Attack is porperly used, since no-one has used it in any of my games.

How do players plarlay a bonus like +10 to damage and -10 to hit into the keystone of a melee build?

[AstralFire]

It's terrible at low levels, but by level 5 or 6, someone stacking to-hit can make use of it. Its best used by two-handed fighters because they pick up +2 damage for every -1 attack.

There's also a feat in Complete Warrior which lets you subtract from armor instead of attack on a charge.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I've been playing and DMing for a while, but I still do't really understand how Power Attack is porperly used, since no-one has used it in any of my games.

How do players plarlay a bonus like +10 to damage and -10 to hit into the keystone of a melee build?

They don't. You Power Attack with a 2-hander for -10 to hit, +20 damage. And then you toss in Leap Attack, to make it -10 to hit, +40 damage. And then they Shock Trooper to make it -10 AC, +40 Damage. Toss in a Ranger level for Rhino's Rush(SpC) to flat-out double your damage on a charge, and Barb 1 for Pounce, and you can blow a hole through the Tarrasque.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Use Shock Trooper feat to change the Attack Penalty to an AC penalty
Use Emerald Razor manuever to make the attack a touch attack

Edit: ninja

[Starbuck_II]

In general without extra feats like Shock trooper: you should PA for a low number: 1-5. That means a damage boost of 2-10. That adds up for full attacks.

If you think the target has low AC (after hiting it on a 10 let us say) then you PA for higher: 6-10.

Now Shock troopre lets you use AC insteasd of to hit penalty so PAing for full makes sense: although you'll want miss chance to stop a counter attack.

[Emy]

They don't. You Power Attack with a 2-hander for -10 to hit, +20 damage. And then you toss in Leap Attack, to make it -10 to hit, +40 damage. And then they Shock Trooper to make it -10 AC, +40 Damage. Toss in a Ranger level for Rhino's Rush(SpC) to flat-out double your damage on a charge, and Barb 1 for Pounce, and you can blow a hole through the Tarrasque.

Momentum swing (Combat Brute) for 5x power attack returns... make that weapon be a lance for another doubling, or a valorous lance for two more doubles, while diving as something with wings to double it again, and battle jump to double it once more... You end up with something like this.

Even in core, you can do simple stuff like this:

Human Barbarian 6. 18 Str (raging for 22) with a lance and a heavy horse.
feats: Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge
attack: +6 BAB +6 Str - 6 Power Attack + 2 charge = +8
damage: (1d8+21)*3 = 66-87 (avg 76.5)

(my example was originally a paladin, but barbarian does a bit more damage.)

[Myou]

It's terrible at low levels, but by level 5 or 6, someone stacking to-hit can make use of it. Its best used by two-handed fighters because they pick up +2 damage for every -1 attack.

Astral to the rescue! *Swoons!*

*Ahem.*

Yes, I've found that it wasn't even worth using at low levels (which are all I've played yet).

There's also a feat in Complete Warrior which lets you subtract from armor instead of attack on a charge.

Ah, the Shock Trooper feat I hear about. ^^

They don't. You Power Attack with a 2-hander for -10 to hit, +20 damage. And then you toss in Leap Attack, to make it -10 to hit, +40 damage. And then they Shock Trooper to make it -10 AC, +40 Damage. Toss in a Ranger level for Rhino's Rush(SpC) to flat-out double your damage on a charge, and Barb 1 for Pounce, and you can blow a hole through the Tarrasque.

Wow, if melee didn't need it I'd think that was pretty overpowered. o.o
Surprising how with a few extra abiliies it all adds up.

So, at level 20 your Power Attack would be able to do 160 bonus damage on every attack you made when charging. 80 without the spell.

That's super.

Use Shock Trooper feat to change the Attack Penalty to an AC penalty
Use Emerald Razor manuever to make the attack a touch attack

Edit: ninja

No no, ninjas don't get manuevers.

But alas that my Warblade never got past level 8. I really want to play him now and try that. Stupid DM forgetting the plot. I was that DM!

In general without extra feats like Shock trooper: you should PA for a low number: 1-5. That means a damage boost of 2-10. That adds up for full attacks.

If you think the target has low AC (after hiting it on a 10 let us say) then you PA for higher: 6-10.

Now Shock troopre lets you use AC insteasd of to hit penalty so PAing for full makes sense: although you'll want miss chance to stop a counter attack.

Wow, it's a lot more tactical than I thought!
I thought Power Attack was just the fighter's version of 'Hulk Smash!', not 'Hulk test enemy AC with conservative Smashing!'

Momentum swing (Combat Brute) for 5x power attack returns... make that weapon be a lance for another doubling, or a valorous lance for two more doubles, while diving as something with wings to double it again, and battle jump to double it once more... You end up with something like this.

Even in core, you can do simple stuff like this:

Human Barbarian 6. 18 Str (raging for 22) with a lance and a heavy horse.
feats: Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge
attack: +6 BAB +6 Str - 6 Power Attack + 2 charge = +8
damage: (1d8+21)*3 = 66-87 (avg 76.5)

(my example was originally a paladin, but barbarian does a bit more damage.)

Wow, mounted combat really is powerful. o.o

Edit: Thanks for explaining, everyone!

[Keld Denar]

Yea, any of my characters who power attack generally start conservatively. I often buy Armbands of Might, so just about every swing is a PA for 2. This gives me +6 damage. Then, after the first round or so, depending on how I feel about the target, this will increase slightly, generally to 5, or decrease to 0 if I feel the target is really hard to hit. Its as much an art as a science. There are a large number of PA optimization spreadsheets out there that will tell you that you shouldn't PA unless you have over a 95% chance of hitting, but this will generally leave you hitting on the low end of the spectrum. Sometimes, you just have to trust your dice.

You generally NEVER PA for full, unless you have some mitigating factor like Wraith Strike which allows you to make touch attacks, or Shocktrooper, or Emerald Razor, or various other effects. Or its like, a level 35 commoner in sackcloth with 450 HP... Oozes and puddings its generally wise to PA for a lot on, while you seldom PA against dragons.

[Flickerdart]

Or you just get an insane bonus to-hit and swing away, because you'll be hitting on a 2 anyways and it's essentially free damage.

[Myou]

Or you just get an insane bonus to-hit and swing away, because you'll be hitting on a 2 anyways and it's essentially free damage.

Yea, any of my characters who power attack generally start conservatively. I often buy Armbands of Might, so just about every swing is a PA for 2. This gives me +6 damage. Then, after the first round or so, depending on how I feel about the target, this will increase slightly, generally to 5, or decrease to 0 if I feel the target is really hard to hit. Its as much an art as a science. There are a large number of PA optimization spreadsheets out there that will tell you that you shouldn't PA unless you have over a 95% chance of hitting, but this will generally leave you hitting on the low end of the spectrum. Sometimes, you just have to trust your dice.

You generally NEVER PA for full, unless you have some mitigating factor like Wraith Strike which allows you to make touch attacks, or Shocktrooper, or Emerald Razor, or various other effects. Or its like, a level 35 commoner in sackcloth with 450 HP... Oozes and puddings its generally wise to PA for a lot on, while you seldom PA against dragons.

Ohh, my monk//sorcerer player has Wraithstrike and PA, he needs to read this. :o

On a semi-related note, now I see why Parthfinder's Power Attack is so badly gimped.

[Mando Knight]

while you seldom PA against dragons.

A notable exception being if you have something that causes the attack to ignore natural armor bonuses to AC.

[Keld Denar]

...and the dragon wasn't smart or high enough level to case Scintilating Scales.

Yea...no more Wraith Strike full PA attacks...

[Mongoose87]

On a semi-related note, now I see why Parthfinder's Power Attack is so badly gimped.

It's not anymore.

[Starbuck_II]

Well, it still isn't great, but the final version is not as bad as beta.

[Mongoose87]

Well, it still isn't great, but the final version is not as bad as beta.

If they'd provided a little flexibility, it would be just dandy.

[Sliver]

They don't. You Power Attack with a 2-hander for -10 to hit, +20 damage. And then you toss in Leap Attack, to make it -10 to hit, +40 damage. And then they Shock Trooper to make it -10 AC, +40 Damage. Toss in a Ranger level for Rhino's Rush(SpC) to flat-out double your damage on a charge, and Barb 1 for Pounce, and you can blow a hole through the Tarrasque.

I think it comes up often when talking about charger builds but about that Leap attack..

If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.

Looking at this and the errata (Although it only changes the second sentence, but it's logical that it would apply here too) (And I found a discussion they actually had a response from the devs some time ago..), Leap attack will give you an extra +1 to damage for every -1 penalty you take to hit (or AC..), no matter what weapon..

So THW will get a 1:3 tradeoff with both PA and LA..

[FMArthur]

You say, "screw it, I've got HP and damage reduction!", hop on your mount, then you Banzai Charge for full and Shock Trooper Power Attack for full and wield your Valorous Lance, casting Rhino's Rush from your Mystic Ranger or Wrath Domain'd cleric levels, using up your Deadly Charge ability from the Cavalier class. Your DM rules that bone fragments flying from your exploded victim deal 10d6 damage in a 20ft radius.

[sofawall]

Hmm, so a Frenzied Berzerker (Two-Handed) does 4(Supreme Power Attack)*3(Leap Attack)=*6 Damage?

Is this what you say?

[TheCountAlucard]

Sometimes, you just have to trust your dice.

You generally NEVER PA for full, unless you have some mitigating factor like Wraith Strike which allows you to make touch attacks, or Shocktrooper, or Emerald Razor, or various other effects.

Reminds me of my SWSE days... we were fighting a Dark Jedi, and we were doing a fairly bad job of hitting her - we quickly ascertained that our party's Jedi was entirely incapable of hitting her except on a nat 20. "Why not?" our Jedi's player says, "I'll Power Attack for full." His very next roll? A nat 20 - he did upwards of 50 damage, at which point said Dark Jedi decided that it was time to try and get away.

[Thrawn183]

Yeah, oozes aren't the only thing with really low AC's, you can also fight things like advanced dire animals too.

I'm of the opinion that shocktrooper alone isn't broken at all. Adding leap attack probably doesn't bust things, but any more than that does.

There's no reason to start playing rocket tag a lower level than you need to.

[Eldariel]

Standard PA is generally empowered by combat factors. E.g. a Core-only Tripper build gets +4 from tripping the opponent, +1 from higher ground pretty easily (especially vs. a tripped opponent) and +2 from flank (should be rather easy to arrange) which is already +7 to your attacks which translates to +14 to damage with Power Attack.

Also, yeah, animals in general have rather low AC. Dire Wolf is a CR 3 with AC 14; you can safely PA for full there. Usually it's only efficient to PA for a lot without Shock Trooper-type effects when you autohit so yeah, stuff mentioned here such as Wraithstrike, Deep Impact, Emerald Razor and such is great for enabling PA, but just plain numeric buffs to attack go a long way too.

Finally, a notable group are opponents with large DR (such as Golems) where you need Power Attack to just bypass the DR if you don't have the appropriate weapon available.


Stuff like this Power Attack calculator is handy for figuring out the exact numbers. It's worth noting that as attack generally scales much faster than AC, you'll reach the point where you pretty much autohit on your primary attacks. At that point, Power Attack becomes free extra damage.

[ericgrau]

Option 1 (the "Char Op" way): Find a cheesy way to negate the to-hit penalties. There are various books for this. Then just pump all you got into damage.

Option 2 (the DM bans above way): See tables. You'll notice that generally a -4 to -6 to AB is optimal and that most of the benefit drop off after a -2 to AB. So if you're fighting a high AC opponent (often the tough opponents) you can try -2 to avoid screwing yourself too bad and still get some extra damage if he's not as hard to hit as you thought.

If you're against an opponent where you're sure your AB is the same higher than his AC, then dump as many AB as you think you can while still staying about as high as his AC, plus maybe 1 or 2 points more if your average damage is still below 38 (for THF) after the free damage. Basically 1/19th of 38 is 2, so beyond 38 damage missing 1/19th of the time costs more than gaining 2 damage.

If you're against something that can't defend itself at all, pump all you got into damage.

For either option two handed generally works best, but you can still dump a small amount of AB into single handed to get a tiny benefit.

[Emy]

Option 1 (the "Char Op" way): Find a cheesy way to negate the to-hit penalties. There are various books for this. Then just pump all you got into damage.

Option 2 (the DM bans above way): See tables. You'll notice that generally a -4 to -6 to AB is optimal and that most of the benefit drop off after a -2 to AB. So if you're fighting a high AC opponent (often the tough opponents) you can try -2 to avoid screwing yourself too bad and still get some extra damage if he's not as hard to hit as you thought.

If you're against an opponent where you're sure your AB is the same higher than his AC, then dump as many AB as you think you can while still staying about as high as his AC, plus maybe 1 or 2 points more if your average damage is still below 38 (for THF) after the free damage. Basically 1/19th of 38 is 2, so beyond 38 damage missing 1/19th of the time costs more than gaining 2 damage.

If you're against something that can't defend itself at all, pump all you got into damage.

For either option two handed generally works best, but you can still dump a small amount of AB into single handed to get a tiny benefit.

I like how you apparently consider Shock Trooper to be both "the 'Char Op' way" and "cheesy" - it's the only thing that actually lets power attack give you something other than a to-hit penalty. Here's a hint: this entire conversation is "Char Op".

If you're referring to things other than Shock Trooper, they don't actually negate the attack penalty from Power Attack. They just boost your attack bonus so that you can still hit, or make your attacks into touch attacks.

Option 3:

Or you just get an insane bonus to-hit and swing away, because you'll be hitting on a 2 anyways and it's essentially free damage.

[Flickerdart]

Hmm, so a Frenzied Berzerker (Two-Handed) does 4(Supreme Power Attack)*3(Leap Attack)=*6 Damage?

Is this what you say?

Yep. That's how multiplier addition works in 3.5, each one uses the base number.

[sofawall]

Option 1 (the "Char Op" way): Find a cheesy way to negate the to-hit penalties. There are various books for this. Then just pump all you got into damage.

Why is it that dumping you AC (letting enemies full power attack YOU) so you can hit stuff is cheesy? Especially when you can only do it on a charge? Charging giving one attack, remember. Oh, and you had to waste a feat on Imp. Bull Rush, something most people agree is sub-optimal.

Or do you mean Wraithstrike from a wand? (With cha usually a dump stat and UMD being cross-class)

Or do you mean a maneuver, which can only be used every other round, at most?

Next he'll be saying Improved Trip is cheesy because you get a free attack if you succeed...

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Why is it that dumping you AC (letting enemies full power attack YOU) so you can hit stuff is cheesy? Especially when you can only do it on a charge? Charging giving one attack, remember.

Unless we have Pounce...

Or do you mean Wraithstrike from a wand? (With cha usually a dump stat and UMD being cross-class)

You seem to have forgotten about masterwork tools of UMD.

[Keld Denar]

And partially charged wands of Wraith Strike?

:P

[sofawall]

And I consider both of those to be bigger problems than Power Attack. Well, really, Pounce is needed to keep melee people having fun.

One simple formula for skill boosters is silly, skills are not all created equal. Why is an item boosting UMD, Spellcraft or Hide worth the same as one boosting Craft: (Basketweaving)? It's on the same order as gauntlets of True Strike.

EDIT: All three of those :P

[Flickerdart]

You seem to have forgotten about masterwork tools of UMD.

And partially charged wands, yes, we've heard it all before.

Edit: Agh, ninjaed...but I can still mention the Eversmoking Bottle!

[Pharaoh's Fist]

One simple formula for skill boosters is silly, skills are not all created equal. Why is an item boosting UMD, Spellcraft or Hide worth the same as one boosting Craft: (Basketweaving)?

Yeah, I know. Basketweaving is so broken, it should cost five times more.