All 18s optimal base class

[alternaloser]

Okay, so I know like all things D&D it's situational and subjective to a certain extent, but if you somehow rolled all 18s what class do you think would be most benefited by these stats? What prestige class if any would you add? I'm curious about a 1-20 (or higher) progression. Some classes have more ability scores which are relevant than others and I just want to hear some opinions. :)

[Jack Zander]

With all 18's a monk becomes somewhat viable. Same with paladins.

The best class to use with all 18s? The same class that's the best for anything, wizard.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Cleric becomes much more Zilla with all 18s. Same with an Archerficer. Really, though Monks and Paladins need the buff, they're still nowhere near a Wizard or Druid with a 36 pt-buy.

[Person_Man]

Well you'd rock at low levels regardless of what you pick - high hit points, initiative, AC, Skill Points, Saves, etc. Your best bet would be to heavily multi-class in classes that rely on stats to boost an ability. Something like Paladin 2/Swordsage 2/Warblade 1/etc.

But by mid-high levels, you can only afford to spend your limited gp to improve 1 or 2 stats, and then pile the rest of your into a magic weapon, armor, protections, wands, whatever. You can't afford to to maximize 4 different stats. You'd also want to maximize your progression on a single list of class abilities (spells, psionics, ToB manuevers, soulmelds, etc) and want your class abilities to run off of one attribute to maximize the Save DCs of your primary class ability.

For example, a Wizard 5/Full Progression Prestige Class 6 with decent Con and maxed out Int could probably kick the tar out of some mish mashed multi-class build, because he has 6th level spells and access to higher level (and usually more powerful) class abilities. And for the most party, it really doesn't matter what his Str/Dex/Wis/Cha are (though high Dex would be helpful for some builds).

[Eloel]

A Rogue sure likes the buff about as much as Monk & Paladin.
18 Str is much-needed for carrying limits on the frail rogue.
18 Dex is pretty much self explaining
18 Con gets the puny d6 HD pretty much irrelevant
18 Int gives 12 SP/level, every single one mattering to the huge class-skill list. (Being a Human gives another SP, which STILL is needed)
18 Wis buffs the low Will saves, and lets Rogue (usually the party scout) actually DO scout (Listen & Spot).
18 Cha is ever-so-useful for the gazillions of social skills and the much needed UMD.

They are useful to many other classes, but Monk, Paladin, Rogue and Ranger are among the ones that need it the most.

[Milskidasith]

Uhh... rogues don't need to max out on 13 skills. Search, Spot, Listen, Disable Device, and party face skills take up maybe 10 different skills... the rest are more optional things, and you really don't need to max nearly that many skills. Strength is useless once you have... uhhh... any money at all, because a donkey or a handy haversack removes that from the equation, and charisma is a small bonus to skills, but not nearly as useful as any other attribute (it only pays off if you actually have a charisma requiring class feature.)

[Telonius]

I think there are two ways you could look at this question: which class would be the best, given all 18's, and which class would be the most improved given all 18s, versus normal rolling or point buy. The answer to the first is probably going to be Wizard. As to the second, it would be the class that has the worst case of MAD. Paladin and Monk are good candidates for that one.

Monk requires strength to hit and damage, Wisdom to power Stunning Fist and AC, Dex to AC, Con to not die. Int and Cha are the obvious dump stats (leaving aside things like Kung Fu Genius). But with the amount of scouting a Monk can expect to do, a reasonable amount of INT is almost required. So, one stat (Cha) is a near-total dump stat.

As for Paladin, Str to hit; Con to not die; Cha for grace, smite, and turn undead; Dex for AC; Wis for spellcasting. Paladin only gets 2+int skill points per level, so without a decent INT, it's not looking too good for any kind of skill check. Each stat gives him something.

I'd say that Paladin narrowly wins on that question.

[AstralFire]

Telonius wins the thread on both points. Well-presented.

I'd personally take this as a chance to play a Monk or Paladin and not suck.

[Starscream]

I like the rogue idea, myself. With a high powered class like wizard you are making an already too good thing better. With a low powered class like monk you are just making up for the deficiencies and getting something mediocre.

But a rogue could genuinely benefit from all the stats without becoming overpowered. Good damage, agility, hit points, skills, will saves, and social skills. The perfect rogue!

Factotum would be another excellent choice. They are intended to be a "jack of all trades", so being genuinely good at everything would really compliment the class.

[Kylarra]

Factotum/Chameleon! Be the best at everything you do!

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Uhh... rogues don't need to max out on 13 skills. Search, Spot, Listen, Disable Device, and party face skills take up maybe 10 different skills... the rest are more optional things, and you really don't need to max nearly that many skills.

Appraise
Balance(5 ranks)
Bluff(social)
Diplomacy(social)
Disable Device
Disguise(optional)
Escape Artist(optional but wanted)
Hide
Intimidate(social)
Knowledges(optional)
Listen(optional but wanted)
Move Silently
Open Lock
Search
Sense Motive(social)
Sleight Of Hand(optional)
Spot(optional but wanted)
Tumble
Use Magic Device
7 skills you basically need, 4 more if you want to do the social stuff, 3 more that you heartily want. And that ignores any Knowledges or prerequisites.

[Saph]

I'm going to disagree with the people saying Wizard and vote for Cleric. With normal stats they're on par with a Wizard, and they benefit far more from all 18s.

Clerics can use their 18s in Strength for melee (Divine Power on top of an 18 Str, woo!), Dex for AC and initiative (dump that full plate and pick up a chain shirt), Con for toughness (like you weren't tough enough already), Int for skills (they actually have a decent skill list, it's just you normally don't have the points to get many), Wis for casting, and Cha for Turn Undead. By contrast, Wizards pretty much never use Strength, Wisdom, or Charisma.

- Saph

[valadil]

I'd go with a venerable wizard. You'd drop your physical stats to 12, which is still pretty survivable.

[Eldariel]

Cleric is indeed very amazing. Druid wouldn't be too bad either if using Aspect of Nature-variant or such; otherwise those stats are kinda wasted on a Druid. That said, Druids are so ridiculous that it doesn't really matter, they still kick ass (yes, I'd pick a Druid over a Wizard for most levels).


Frankly, some more MAD classes would really shine here. Archivist with Turning-dip would really rock, probably even more so than a Cleric. The Archivist Archer would indeed enjoy those stats tremendously as you want all stats for that (Int for casting, Wis for bonus spells, Cha for Turn Undead-uses from Sacred Exorcist, Dex for archery, Con for HP and Str for damage; saves you a feat on Zen Archery, though you might want it anyways to make full use of Owl's Insight).

Cleric Archer wouldn't be that far behind (mostly because of the bonus feats from Domains; might be that Archivist would ultimately want that Cleric-dip in spite of losing a CL to get 3 bonus feats and earlier access to Turning), but with those stats Archivist pulls ahead thanks to access to the Ranger- and Druid-lists.

Wizard Gish would also love those stats. Wizard in general could do the mentioned "Venerable"-trade and get some sweet Int buffs. Heh, Venerable Lesser Tiefling with 23 Int on level 1 would be pretty amazing. Make it Dragonborn to maintain 14 Con (though only 12 Dex that way).


Fighter would actually benefit quite a bit given enough sources; you'd have access to the Combat Expertise-line WHILE maintaining access to Imperious Command and sufficient Str to use Tripping, Dungeoncrasher and such, and Dex for Combat Reflexes. Two-Weapon Fighting fighter-type could indeed do all that while Str-focusing his Two-Weapon Fighting (using the inherent Dex to qualify for the TWF feats).

The sad part is that two-handing would still be better. Mostly, this would enable builds rather than classes (though it's true that Monk and Paladin would love this, and Cleric would quite possibly usurp the Best Core Class title from Druid); many kinds of builds are simply not doable due to requiring multiple stats to be efficient. Bard-based Dervish needs Cha, Con, Dex, Str and Int (for Combat Expertise) and is thus almost unplayable normally, but with these rules only feat-starved.

[Mando Knight]

Dex for AC and initiative (dump that full plate and pick up a chain shirt)

Except for speed and Armor Check Penalty, Full Plate is still better. Mithral Full Plate is even better than that.

[Eldariel]

Except for speed and Armor Check Penalty, Full Plate is still better. Mithral Full Plate is even better than that.

And Celestial Armor is the fairest of them all! Though with 18 starting Dex, you can quickly reach the point where your best bet is frankly Bracers of Armor and/or Monk's Belt if you put any effort into upping your Wis/Dex.

[Tetsubo 57]

I'm going to go with Monk on this. Possibly even an Orc Monk for some flavor.

[Saph]

Except for speed and Armor Check Penalty, Full Plate is still better. Mithral Full Plate is even better than that.

Mithral Shirt is +6 max dex, +4 AC. Mithral Plate is +3 max dex, +8 AC. But Mithral Plate cuts your speed and gives you a hefty armour check penalty, and if you're facing touch attacks it's actually worse than wearing no armour at all.

Personally, I'd take the chain shirt. I generally find that moving fast is a better defence than one extra point of AC.

[LibraryOgre]

Mithral Shirt is +6 max dex, +4 AC. Mithral Plate is +3 max dex, +8 AC. But Mithral Plate cuts your speed and gives you a hefty armour check penalty, and if you're facing touch attacks it's actually worse than wearing no armour at all.

Personally, I'd take the chain shirt. I generally find that moving fast is a better defence than one extra point of AC.

Course, you could compromise and go with Mithral breastplate.

[aje8]

In terms of best class, I'd say it's clearly Cleric NOT Wizard.

Wizards need 2-3 stats.... Int, Con and sometimes Dex depending on spells.

A DMM Persitent melee-oriented Cleric wants alot more stats..... said cleric needs Cha, Wisdom, Con and Strength. This allows them to actually make use of their large number of good stats.

Basically, +1 w/ what Saph said.

In terms of most improved class, Monks have several problems other than mad. How about a Gish? I'd say a Gish-y class such as Duskblade is going to be most improved.

[Talya]

Factotum goes from jack of all trades, to nearly a master of all trades with all 18s.

[Draz74]

Warblade can make great use of all 18s. (Charisma for the Diplomacy and Intimidate skills you're maxing out, Wisdom just for Will saves, the others should be obvious.) Swordsages, similarly; Wisdom becomes very important, while Charisma is still at least semi-useful for Intimidating.

Paladin, Monk, sure. Or even Monk 2 / Paladin X () might become viable.

Another weak class that might get redeemed by such uber stats is Dragon Shaman. (Hey look, my DS actually has skill points!)

Obviously Tier 1 classes are still the potential winners. Cleric and Artificer can use all the 18s better than Wizard, Druid, and Archivist can.

Factotum can indeed use any stat, if you take ranks in the right skills. Rogue, too. Psychic Warrior / Slayer is another good candidate (Slayer has a good class skill list to use your INT on, including Bluff to give you a reason to care about CHA).

[Eldariel]

Obviously Tier 1 classes are still the potential winners. Cleric and Artificer can use all the 18s better than Wizard, Druid, and Archivist can.

This one seems a bit weird to me. Archivists have two casting stats, easy access to turning and able to Zilla just as much as a Cleric; if anything they use their stats more due to Int being very useful to them as well as Wis and Cha and Con and Dex and Str.

[aje8]

This one seems a bit weird to me. Archivists have two casting stats, easy access to turning and able to Zilla just as much as a Cleric; if anything they use their stats more due to Int being very useful to them as well as Wis and Cha and Con and Dex and Str.

Problem is, turning is a really weak and situational ability making Charisma only mildly useful.

With DMM, it goes from mildly useful to your best stat.

That's why I'd say Cleric (possibly Cleric Archer) is the single best class for all 18s.

[Eldariel]

Problem is, turning is a really weak and situational ability making Charisma only mildly useful.

With DMM, it goes from mildly useful to your best stat.

That's why I'd say Cleric (possibly Cleric Archer) is the single best class for all 18s.

That's what Archivist uses the Turning for too. Well, that or Divine Spell Power or Spontaneous Domain (or maybe Divine Shield or Might when Zillaing). Nobody in their right mind actually turns undead, but it's a power source that empowers many superb feats.

Archivist still gets more out of the Int (Dark Knowledges & casting) while getting the same out of all other classes so I'd say it benefits more of all-18s than the Cleric.

[Draz74]

Archivist still gets more out of the Int (Dark Knowledges & casting) while getting the same out of all other classes so I'd say it benefits more of all-18s than the Cleric.

Maybe. I just don't think of Archivists as ever entering melee, so STR, at least, seems pretty useless. Possibly DEX too.

But hey, maybe with DMM and all 18s you could actually make an Archivist do fine in melee.

[Eldariel]

Maybe. I just don't think of Archivists as ever entering melee, so STR, at least, seems pretty useless. Possibly DEX too.

But hey, maybe with DMM and all 18s you could actually make an Archivist do fine in melee.

You can make the most amazing Archivist Archer ever. All Cleric, Ranger (they've got a ton of awesome Archery-spells) and the few Druid-buffs (á la Wind Tunnel) for Archery on one character along with DMM: Persist, Str to damage, Dex to attack with and so on.

Of course, with DMM: Persist, Zillaing isn't really hard at all either. Divine Power, Righteous Might, Divine Favor, go to town! With those turn attempts, much more available.

[MichielHagen]

I remember i once build a Warlock and it could use every stat.

Other than that i am currently building a Warblade/Swordsage/Wizard/Abjurant Champion

without going into too much detail:
STR: he is a melee-er
DEX: adds to AC and stuff
CON: every character wants this
INT: Caster
WIS: also adds to AC and stuff
CHA: not so much needed, though it would allow me to take a feat that i can use CHA number of times, cannot remember which, since i knew my CHA would be my lowest stat.

[MichielHagen]

Problem is, turning is a really weak and situational ability making Charisma only mildly useful.

With DMM, it goes from mildly useful to your best stat.

That's why I'd say Cleric (possibly Cleric Archer) is the single best class for all 18s.

Would it really profit much from a INT 18?

BTW, your own argument against Archivist you use in pro of Cleric, that doesn't seem fair

[Sanguine]

Would it really profit much from a INT 18?

Two Words: Skill Points