Cheaters at the table

[Superglucose]

So I'm in a new group and we started today. There are two complete newbies (which is fine) and while I *am* going to be overshadowing them a bit in combat since I do know about the game, they are coming to me for advice/questions.

There is one problem however: the fourth player is either a cheater or really doesn't know the rules and refuses to admit it. He's playing a rogue/fighter/wizard/soulknife (don't ask) who at level 1 (rogue) is getting his AC up to 22 by using combat expertise for +5 to his AC.

Now, I do realize the problem with this (of course) my only issue is: how do I bring this up with the GM who's also kind of a newbie and is a friend of this player's?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Write out the rules, hit the cheater with them (critical hit results in a papercut) and then present your case to the DM.

[The_JJ]

I think that works, so long as he's also taking penalties to his hit.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise

[daggaz]

Just say it point blank. Its not rude, they are new, you are not, you actually have a bit of responsibility to explain the rules to them. Its hardly rules lawyering.

Just dont immediately call him a cheater. Remember, always save some face, besides, he might really not realise.

"Oh ok, actually you cant do that, because X."

That said... is he lvl one and plans to hit all of those classes, or does he have those classes? At any rate, he can get his ac up as high as his present BaB, whatever that is. (too lazy to do the math, but actually, its probably only +1 isnt it..)

[kamikasei]

I think that works, so long as he's also taking penalties to his hit.

"This number may not exceed your base attack bonus" - which is to say, +0 at the moment.

[rezplz]

In situations like these, yeah. It's best to just tell them straight up "Oh, it actually works like this..." My dad used to play DnD in the earlier editions and now he plays 3.5 with my gaming group, and sometimes I have to correct him since things are different from what he's used to.

If this fourth player of yours is decent enough, he'll realize his mistake and correct it. If not, then you can go to your DM about it.

[Superglucose]

That said... is he lvl one and plans to hit all of those classes, or does he have those classes? At any rate, he can get his ac up as high as his present BaB, whatever that is. (too lazy to do the math, but actually, its probably only +1 isnt it..)

Yes, he's level 1 and he plans to hit those classes, and his BAB right now is +1 since he got his fighter level. After two more levels his BAB will still be +1.

The really annoying thing that makes me think he was cheating was somehow he was managing a +2 to hit after "subtracting" 5 from his to-hit at level 1. 20 str half-orc barbarian with weapon focus is +7 to hit. Rogue human with 14 strength is +2 to hit. I happen to know (since he bragged about the 14 strength) that he's a 14 strength human, which means he was "forgetting" to subtract from his to-hit rolls.

Unsurprisingly, the rogue with a random +5 to AC was our best tank... especially since he wore medium armor that he's (probably) not proficient with.

I was considering turning him on to improved combat expertise but since his eventual plan is Spring Attack and he considers himself a veteran player... I'll just stick to correcting rules.

As for one of the other players, she is building a barbarian and I suggested to her that she work on qualifying for leap attack. I plan to do some research on Barbarians before next session to see what a few good directions are, just in case she asks (I bet she will).

Write out the rules, hit the cheater with them (critical hit results in a papercut) and then present your case to the DM.

Edit: this reminds me of the [blank] stick, which is essentially where we take a document and tape it around my dad's softball bat (this joke was started in high school) and threaten to beat people with it. This way we could literally beat intelligence into people

[rezplz]

From what you described there, wow. I've never played with a player like that and I hope I never will, but it seems pretty obvious to me that this player is not bending the rules, but breaking them and then dancing all over them. You're going to need to have a stern talk, with DM present, that basically amounts to "knock it off, you're being a **** head."

[kamikasei]

You're going to need to have a stern talk, with DM present, that basically amounts to "knock it off, you're being a **** head."

No - the DM needs to have that talk if he decides it's necessary, but it's his responsibility and not the player's. What the OP should do is either a) bring his concerns to the DM or b) voice them without accusation at the table during an idle moment - "hey by the way Bob, how is it you're doing X? I can't figure it, I thought you were limited by your BAB / your attack bonus was only Y to start with / you need to be an Elan for that, what am I missing?".

[negativity 101]

Also you might remind him that the penalty and bonus only applies in the rounds that he is actually spending an action on hitting things (or attempting to hit them anyway, he might have some difficulty when you remind him of his penalty to attack rolls).

[Pharaoh's Fist]

People seem to have missed the most obvious answer, which is to kill him.

His character, I mean. Yeah, his character.

[valadil]

Call him on his errors, but don't accuse him of erring intentionally. That's the sort of thing that you can't take back.

[Stegyre]

No - the DM needs to have that talk if he decides it's necessary, but it's his responsibility and not the player's. What the OP should do is either a) bring his concerns to the DM or b) voice them without accusation at the table during an idle moment - "hey by the way Bob, how is it you're doing X? I can't figure it, I thought you were limited by your BAB / your attack bonus was only Y to start with / you need to be an Elan for that, what am I missing?".

This is real diplomacy, and also puts the real burden where it belongs (on the DM).

[xPANCAKEx]

just have the book open at the table and say "oh hey, just read over the rule on that - seems to work a bit different"

that way its less "U IZ CHEETIN" and more "hey, its a mistake, but no biggy, lets get back on with the fun"

[daggaz]

So he took fighter first and not rogue? Yeah he is BaB+1, and yeah it only counts to AC the round he attacks at a -1 to hit (until the first action of his next turn). Sounds to me like he is a mad munchkin, I would nip him right in the bud and bring it up at the table in front of the DM.

Wait you do what? Sorry dude, but X doesnt work that way. You can only... Im sure the DM will appreciate it. As will the others who are getting overshadowed by his munchkinery.

[woodenbandman]

Tell it to the DM. If the DM hands it down, he'll be more likely to A defer to the expertise of said DM, and B not get mad. If a fellow player does it, he'll see it as you trying to get a leg up over his character or some other imagined sleight.

I've played with a guy like this before, and I can tell you that he'll probably do this with his next character. You can't really force him to stop, because he wants to win DnD. (this is experience mixed with speculation). I suggest that you guys review his sheet, correct it, call him on stuff, and pray.

If this guy is otherwise tolerable, then fine. Chances are, though, that he's a powerplayer who doesn't understand powerplaying, and he tries to force the group into unnecessary combats. Furthermore, he won't outright defy the DM, but he'll rather try to sneak in some cheese on the fly without telling you. Probably lies about his dice rolls as well as his modifiers. Encourage everyone to roll on the same surface.

If this sounds like an accurate description, you should probably give this guy the boot if he doesn't change his ways. He doesn't enjoy things not going his way, and it'll all probably end in tears.

This is all based off of my personal experience. This player you have seems to be very similar to one that I encountered. This player did things like you describe, while at the same time getting angry when other players called him on it. It's unclear to me whether he was intentionally cheating all the time, but I know he lied about his rolls. Don't be accusatory, but don't be naive either, otherwise he'll have the mistaken assumption that he can get away with it. Just have the DM say something like "I expect everyone to play fair, because it is more fun when everyone has an equal chance to play the game."

[Kylarra]

While he might be deliberately cheating, it's always bad to start of accusatory, that just forces people that might otherwise be open to correction to go onto the defensive and things just break down from there. Start with the assumption that it is an honest mistake and work from there. Yes, he might be cheating deliberately, but if he's new, he could just be honestly forgetting his math, misreading feats, etc.

[Superglucose]

GM doesn't care, I'm looking for a new group.

Well that was easy to resolve

[Kylarra]

GM doesn't care, I'm looking for a new group.

Well that was easy to resolve

Always unfortunate, but glad that it got resolved.

[Fitz10019]

I agree with those saying that it should presented as a rules clarification, and not as an accusation of cheating. I disagree with those saying it's the DM's job. Cooperative play is cooperative play. The DM casts judgement on situations where the rules are unclear. In this case, the rule is clearly not being followed.

Also note, it's not uncommon for someone to misunderstand the distinction between BAB and AB.

[Mystic Muse]

People seem to have missed the most obvious answer, which is to kill him.

His character, I mean. Yeah, his character.

no you don't. it's just that the law won't let us do it the other way.

[Kaun]

may be a wee bit late but a friend of mine was always good at using the subtle torpedo way of fixing similar problems.

example: (always done while sitting round the table mid game while everybody is there)

player1: Wow that bonus to "x" is awesome how did you get it?!?
Cheater: Ah well i used "y" feat like this and because of rule "z" it allows you to get "x" bonus up to that at this level.
Player1: Really? but i thought that "y" feat couldn't work like that because of "a" rule ... (look it up in the rule book and show him and anybody else at the table that is interested.)
Cheater: *makes some half arsed excuse and usually puts it over to a DM call.*
DM: *Depends on the DM much like in your situation.*
Player1: *if the DM decides that the cheater is misusing the feat or what ever* Ow that sucks man i was thinking about using that for my next character.

If done right you can often get away with it with out the cheater realizing hes been torpedoed, you also tend to dodge a lot of that resentment that you get from the straight call out option.

[BobVosh]

People seem to have missed the most obvious answer, which is to kill him.

His character, I mean. Yeah, his character.

Hmm. Strange phrasing... But you are a stand up kinda guy. Certainly not one to mind crush people out of handfist.

[Keshay]

GM doesn't care, I'm looking for a new group.

Well that was easy to resolve

Really? Sweet. Now is the time to start casting Quickend Maximized spells using the base spell level. Or power attacking for full without taking the to-hit modifier. Or just getting up on the table and taking a dump on the rules.

I didn't catch what class you were playing, but if you're going to be looking for a new group anyhow, I suggest announcing actions that are impossible for your character class. Like casting a Magic Missile and hitting for 85 every round. If they choose to point out that you can't do that, gently remind them that other are allowed to do things not allowed by the published rules. Ask how you can get in on that action.

[chiasaur11]

Challenge him to a duel.

If he objects, glove slap and demand he give you satisfaction.

It's the civilized way to solve problems.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

And then comes the killing?

To the death!

[Doc Roc]

And then comes the killing?

To the death!

No, to the pain!

[tonberrian]

I don't think I'm quite familiar with that phrase.

[Mystic Muse]

I really should remember what Wesley says here.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

"To the pain," means the first thing you lose will be your feet below the ankles, then your hands at the wrists, next your nose.