Paladins. 3.5

[Mystic Muse]

what is the worst score you want for a Paladin? they're my favorite class and since I know they're weak I want to know what they should be before playing them is a viable option. my current scores are
STR17
CHA16
CON15
DEX14
WIS13
INT12

(wisdom is low because I'm not sticking around for spells.)

these work right?

[RTGoodman]

Yep. And you could really even drop Int and Wis down to boost Str or Cha, without any detriments. Str and Cha are your primary abilities, since they let you hit harder and be more resilient (through Divine Grace), while Con keeps you alive and Dex makes you slightly harder to hit. Wis CAN be important, but it's not necessary if you plan on dropping the spellcasting. As for Int, you can afford to tank it - leave the thinkin' to those wimpy wizards and rogues and whatnot.

For the record, it's exemplary arrays like the one you've got that actually make them semi-okay. The reason Paladins are looked down on (other than the Code) is that they're so MAD - they need at least two-three high scores to do well, and ideally would like four or five good scores.

[FMArthur]

This is bad; your stats are too good to be a paladin. You must have a large Int penalty to avoid falling in a party of non-paladins.

[ericgrau]

Ya, and that wis 13 would be enough for level 3 spells. Magic item to boost it and you'd be set. It's not like many pally spells involve saves. I typically make dex a 12 and wear full plate, but since your stats are so high you might as well leave it where it is and use it for saves or ranged attacks or something. If you never plan on wielding a bow except in extreme emergencies then you could "dump" dex to 12. You're gonna be at a very high level before the 10k for mithral full plate makes sense (vs. simply boosting your other AC items), and even then you could get a dex boosting item as well.

[Mystic Muse]

just FYI this isn't point-buy this is what my DM rolled for me.

and I like the dexterity. it helped me kill a pirate queen and take the pirate's secret stash.
24,624 gold at level 3

the only problem is I'm chaotic good, not chaotic neutral so I have to give some to the party. (before you ask, Paladin of freedom variant)

also I fail to see the correlation to INT=Paladin fall.

[Sanguine]

Since when is sharing a Good act?

[Mystic Muse]

I'd explain but real world religion is not to be discussed on these boards.

[Elfin]

I think that was meant to be a joke.

And those are pretty decent stats; they should definitely be enough to let you pull through.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

also I fail to see the correlation to INT=Paladin fall.

The ironclad nature of the paladin code means that the smarter you are, the more likely you are to realize that some evil is done by any action or inaction in many situations. And since knowingly doing evil=fall, dumb paladins last longer.

[Mando Knight]

The ironclad nature of the paladin code means that the smarter you are, the more likely you are to realize that some evil is done by any action or inaction in many situations. And since knowingly doing evil=fall, dumb paladins last longer.

Alternatively, an intelligent Paladin can become ridiculously hard to cause to fall, as he is able to figure out an alternative solution to every problem. Occasionally, a smart enough Paladin could hatch a plot that causes the BBEG to turn all of its attention on him, so that the halfling with the MacGuffin can save the world while the BBEG isn't looking.

[woodenbandman]

I love the idea of a smart paladin. The paladin's code is what doesn't really work. As a paladin you need an understanding DM, who will give you an outline of what is and isn't acceptible, and will remind you if you're about to overstep. Also you have to get your DM to understand the concept of "greater good." In my campaign, any action that does more good than evil is generally good, or at least neutral.

Obviously there are some exceptions, like killing a helpless guy rather than capturing him, but if you try to convince someone that they're doing something that will kill loads of people, and they don't listen and continue doing it, you wouldn't fall for killing them. You'd be on thin ice, but not fall.

[mcl01]

If you don't want spells at all, then you can take the holy warrior variant in CC. At 4th, 8th, 11th, and 14th level you get a fighter bonus feat instead.

[HCL]

what is the worst score you want for a Paladin? they're my favorite class and since I know they're weak I want to know what they should be before playing them is a viable option. my current scores are
STR17
CHA16
CON15
DEX14
WIS13
INT12

(wisdom is low because I'm not sticking around for spells.)

these work right?

I probably wouldn't bother with more than 12 dex if you are wearing full plate.

[Mystic Muse]

I'm already taking the Paladin of freedom Variant so no dice on the holy warrior although I may make one for a backup character. I highly doubt my Paladin will survive the entire campaign although it'd be nice if he did.

thanks for the replies guys. I was just a little concerned since somebody said unless Paladin's have good stats in a lot of categories they're bad.

[Sendal]

They aren't too bad up to level 5. Its just that after that instead of getting nifty class features, they get partial spell casting and it doesn't compare with proper casting.

I'm sure theres an argument for paladin 5/ Cleric the rest to achieve simmilar flavour, but better spells.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Serenity is a feat from Dragon magazine that allows you to replace your CHA based abilities with your WIS.

[Mystic Muse]

okay. I need another question answered but I feel like there's some rule or other that doesn't want me creating too many different threads at one time.

does anybody know of an online character builder so that I can print out a better version of my character sheet? the letters for skills on my character sheet are WAY too small and although I have good sight I have to strain my eyes just to read them. I need one that allows variant classes like the Paladin of Freedom however and the few that I've seen don't.

[Person_Man]

Depending on your ECL, I would find a way to get Wis to 14 via a magic item, or by switching it with Dex (unless you're an AoO build). Just one level of Paladin entitles you use all spell trigger items for their spells, assuming you have the minimum Wis needed to cast them. That means Holy Sword and several other goodies from the splat books. I'd also add that Paladin spells can be ridiculously useful if you know what you're doing (Sword of the Arcane Order, Battle Blessing).

Your real problem is that as you gain levels, you won't be able to afford to boost more then one or two stats (presumably Con and Cha for defense or Str and Dex for offense). So depending on your books allowed, might want to consider some X to Y shenanigans. For example:

Sir Wisdom the SAD
Elan Paladin 4/Sanctified Mind 1/War Mind 5/Sanctified Mind 2-6

Spoiler

Show

A Paladin using the Serenity feat (Dragon Magazine, also on Crystalkeep) uses Wis instead of Cha for all of his class abilities. So now your Wis improves all of your Saves (and it effectively doubles up on your Will Save), and you can use it for Smite (bonus to hit) and Turn Undead uses (various Divine feats).

Sanctified Mind (Lords of Madness) is 6 level, full BAB PrC which provides 5/6 caster or manifester progression (player's choice, and you can explicitly change which you take each level) with the dead level being the first level of the class. Unlike most other classes, you can enter it at ECL 5. It also has some semi-useful class abilities, including Power Resistance based on your HD, which counts as Spell Resistance if your DM is using the transparency rules.

War Mind is a nifty PrC. His best class feature is Sweeping Strike, which can be abused all kinds of ways with Attack of Opportunity combos. But he also gets Wis based Psychic Warrior power progression. It's relatively fast progression, too. At ECL 15, you essentially have the same powers as a 15th level Psychic Warrior.

Intuitive Attack (Book of Exalted Deeds) which allows you to use your Wis bonus for your To-Hit bonus with simple or natural weapons.

Enhanced Elan Resilience (Complete Psionic) improves your Elan ability to spend your Power Points (based on Wis) to negate damage to 4 points per power point spent. You can also burn 1 point to get +4 to your Saves for 1 round. Though you need to be careful about this, as both are an Immediate Action, and thus can be done once per round. Alternatively or in addition, you can also get temporary hit points with the Vigor power, and/or heal with Hostile Empathic Transfer when you need to. And/or you can set up the standard Claws of the Beast + Claws of the Vampire + Expansion combo. Just be mindful that you have very limited power points (though you're helped out by bonus power points from a high Wis).

And Mage Slayer feats have no effect on caster levels, as the transparency rules have no effect on feats (otherwise a Psychic Warrior could take Practiced Caster and metamagic feats, which they can't). So casters have a lot to fear from you.

Buy a Monk's Belt, and you get Wis to AC (including Touch AC). Improve both AC's even higher by using the Shield and Inertial Armor powers. And since you're not wearing armor, you can buy a Ring of Evasion, just to be extra cautious.

To top it off, take a look at the Travel Devotion (Complete Champion) to get free movement every turn, so that you can make a full attack every round. (Not that you need it. You have Hustle. But it's nice to be thorough).

Put it all together, and you get a PC who has Wis based Turn Undead, Saves, To-Hit, AC, and (essentially) hit points, with full BAB, 15th level Psychic Warrior abilities, plenty of divine and psionic options, and numerous useful class abilities.

Another good option - Slippers of Battledancing (DMGII pg 272). It provides various bonuses, and if you have some ranks in Perform (dance) you can use your Cha instead of Str or Dex as your bonus to attack with one handed or light weapons.