Xenotheurgy: Far Realms magic system

[Eldan]

Hmm. Actually, just making a tentacle themed breach or murmur should work for this...

But I'll see if I can make a class.

[Draken]

Weapons of Twisted Flesh, from Endless Evolution, is your tentacle breach. First level to boot.

It doe,s however, not specify how many attacks you get. It appears to give a single one, but there are claws and slams there, which are attacks that tend to come in pairs.

Tentacles on the other hand come in a wide aray of amounts.

[Matar]

Question about incursions.

It says that you need to make a DC 15 Wisdom Check to tell if the Xeno is the source of the incursion. Now, does this mean you need to make the check if you see the Xeno do it, or can you make the check any time you see the Xeno in general?

If it's the later, does that mean I could enter the area of effect, go somewhere else a few hours later, see the Xeno, and still make the check? Even if we aren't in the incursion anymore?

I'm hoping for the former, if only because it adds to the "OH MY GOD WHY IS THE SKY ON FIRE WHY OH GOD" factor of the Xeno's.

[Draken]

Identifying an Incursion: a DC 15 Wisdom check reveals to a creature that they have entered the periphery or marrow of the incursion. Similarly, a DC 15 Wisdom check made while possessing a line of sight with the xenotheurgist reveals them to be the source.

"... We are not in Kansas anymore."

"He is the source!"

[Owrtho]

Well, seeing as incursions follow the xenotheurgist staying centred on him (unless he uses the Displace Incursion feat tree), it would still make sense even if you see him a few hours later and the incursion is still going on (as it would be following him around, and get stronger the closer you get to him etc.).

Owrtho

[Matar]

Well, seeing as incursions follow the xenotheurgist staying centred on him (unless he uses the Displace Incursion feat tree), it would still make sense even if you see him a few hours later and the incursion is still going on (as it would be following him around, and get stronger the closer you get to him etc.).

Depends on the incursion, imo. Some are ranked in miles, after all. If you used one in a city there really should be any way to tell who's doing it. I mean, if you're in a city it should be damn to impossible to find the one person who's doing it when a mile or two of land is being covered.

I guess I'm just sorta bothered by the fact that like, if you're in an RP game then you basically can't do anything that day or else everyone finds out what you are and wants you dead. Or if it's a hack'n'slash game no one really cares, thus making it pointless.

Maybe it could be like, for every ten people in the marrow the DC for finding out who's doing it increases by 1? That way in a huge city they would be hard to find out, but in the wild with no one around it would be really easy to tell who's doing it?

Just saying that seeing as how you can be found out with disturbances and breaches already it's sorta over kill to add a lowish DC to getting found out with incursions as well, that's all.

[DragoonWraith]

As far as I can tell, using Incursions is generally to be avoided if possible.

[Tavar]

Really, besides the fact that the last time I looked at it the class was largely unfinished, the power issue is a the reason I'm hesitant to play one of these. Considering how likely you are to screw yourself and the party over, the power you have seems very low. I'm not too experienced, by without the major drawbacks I'd put it at around T4. With them, it's hard to say because so much depends on luck.

[Eldan]

Weapons of Twisted Flesh, from Endless Evolution, is your tentacle breach. First level to boot

Tentacles on the other hand come in a wide aray of amounts.

Oh, right. Could base a class on that, then.

Somehow I'm tempted to give it an ooze form. Just because that would look absolutely disgusting.

[Matar]

But... but... tentacles are adorible!

((Picture is 100% safe for work, it's just freaking big.))

Spoiler

Show

[Eldan]

Oh, true enough. I love squids.

But ooze shape has a lot of advantages as well. You could squeeze through narrow gaps, or be resistant to critical hits, for example.

And if you combine the two? Shoggoth.

Hmm. Which reminds me. Eyes all over the body. Gotta remember that one.

[Draken]

Add mouths, add spit and a nagging voice you have yourself a Gibbering mouther.

[Matar]

And lots of tentacles. For hugging. xD

[irondesk]

Fantastic work - I'm itching to try one in game!

Question: I've read over the document a couple times now and I must be missing something - What stops you from casting breaches indefinetly? I understand that your breach level keeps going up, and when you hit lvl7, your incursions go off uncontrollably, and you take the skill/check penalty, but it doesn't actually state you can no longer cast breaches. Since they work even if you fail your will save, you could just keep casting, irregardless of success or failure.

[DragoonWraith]

Hitting 7's an excellent way to just absolutely lose control, and you keep taking hits to your Will save, so spamming Breaches is probably a bad plan. But, if you wanted, yes, you could. They're not as strong as spells, you see, and they have some serious drawbacks built in, so you don't need to.

[Eldan]

At Matar's request, I've written up a Xenotheurgy-based Prestige class for his character: The Transcendent Scion.
I think advertising it here is a good way to get a few more people to read it.

[Matar]

HEY GUYS
HEY MAN
HEY DUDES
HEY CHICKS
HEY EVERYONE

Eldan wrote up an awesome class that no one is talking about! We should fix that! RIGHT? RIGHT?

Also, something I just noticed. When you use a Breach your DC to resist the Murmur increases by one, but -only- if you pass the save, and it doesn't go up any further for repeated uses of that Breach, right?

[Matar]

Is this being worked on? Because I had a couple thoughts after playing this for about three sessions.

Few things...

One: Breach's are a pain. They don't really add enough to make it worth the danger of using it. I'm not master of balance, but they're just very disappointing. Think about making it a Swift action to use one. I don't think it'd break anything, and it requires the smallest amount of messing around with the skills themselves.

Two: Incursions are awesome. But they are damn useless as well. It's a class feature that has no practical usage beyond "Oh heyz this is cool." I'm sure there may be a few rare times where you'll use it... but still, it's not enough. My suggestion? Make it so that your Breaches/Disturbances/Murmurs are treated as Extraordinary Abilities while in the area of an Incursion. Adds to the fluff and makes them all around cooler.

Three: Think about making it so that every day you automatically lower your highest level Breach. You still have to roll to lower the other two, however. If you have two or more that are high and at the same level, have one of them randomly lowered.

Four: Maybe even go one step further with the Incursions. Perhaps make it so that the DC to resist failing a Breach doesn't increase by +1 after using one while in the area of effect. So basically, if you use one and the save to resist it is 18 or something, and use it again the save is still 18 instead of 19. I dunno, just an idea.

Five: You may want to make using an Incursion a swift action as well. Why? Well, because it makes sense fluff whys and they don't really add a huge boost anyways. They effect everyone, ally or enemy and can hurt both just the same. Really, anyone at your level is going to be just as hurt/helped by is as the rest of your team. And if you look at it from the fluff it fits as well. Incursions are things you're holding back. You're not creating some portal to let the Far Realms in. You just stop pushing it back.

Six:

Identifying an Incursion: a DC 15 Wisdom check reveals to a creature that they have entered the periphery or marrow of the incursion. Similarly, a DC 15 Wisdom check made while possessing a line of sight with the xenotheurgist reveals them to be the source.

If you change anything change that. I don't see why one out of 20 peasents should know that they're in the zone of the Far-Realms, and I don't see why just looking at the person who did it would be enough to tell. My suggestion? Make it so that it takes a rather high check of Knowledge: Planes to know you entered a place effected by the Far-Realms, and that you have to interact with the person who did it to know that they, well, did it.

I'm thinking Knowledge: Planes DC 25 and a Wisdom Check of 15 to tell that the person who did it is the one who did it. But you only get that check by interacting with them. Conscious Incursion should increase the DC to tell by five or something, and Unhindered Incursion should make it impossible to tell.

Just some ideas I thought of. I could be totally wrong with them, however. Here's hoping you're still working on this, however. It really is awesome.

[Owrtho]

If you change anything change that. I don't see why one out of 20 peasents should know that they're in the zone of the Far-Realms, and I don't see why just looking at the person who did it would be enough to tell. My suggestion? Make it so that it takes a rather high check of Knowledge: Planes to know you entered a place effected by the Far-Realms, and that you have to interact with the person who did it to know that they, well, did it.

I'm thinking Knowledge: Planes DC 25 and a Wisdom Check of 15 to tell that the person who did it is the one who did it. But you only get that check by interacting with them. Conscious Incursion should increase the DC to tell by five or something, and Unhindered Incursion should make it impossible to tell.

Well, the looking at the person who did it and knowing it was them makes sense even if you have no idea what's going on. After all, they're always in the centre of the effect and it follows them (might not seem as important given the large areas, but still of note). It is also likely that the energy is noticeably originating from them. Thus even if you have no idea why things are suddenly messed up, if they see the guy who it's all focused around and the energies coming from him, they can likely get a pretty good idea that he's the cause.

As another note, Incursions aren't supposed to be all that powerful (well, in terms of helping you vs mess with everyone). Your supposed to want to try avoiding using them frequently. Particularly given the 24 hour duration that cant be ended prematurely. Then again, I could see an argument for them making the breaches they are tied to easier to use, but not all the breaches.

Owrtho

[Matar]

Well, the looking at the person who did it and knowing it was them makes sense even if you have no idea what's going on. After all, they're always in the centre of the effect and it follows them (might not seem as important given the large areas, but still of note). It is also likely that the energy is noticeably originating from them. Thus even if you have no idea why things are suddenly messed up, if they see the guy who it's all focused around and the energies coming from him, they can likely get a pretty good idea that he's the cause.

I see your point, but that just seems too... flashy for me, I guess. I honestly picture it more as a "Holy **** I just broke reality" then a bunch of flashy powers pouring off your body and doing it. I don't know, I just think it's far more interesting to not be able to see what the cause is, rather then being able to tell some guy has the Far-Realms leaking out of his butt with just a glance.

As another note, Incursions aren't supposed to be all that powerful (well, in terms of helping you vs mess with everyone). Your supposed to want to try avoiding using them frequently. Particularly given the 24 hour duration that cant be ended prematurely. Then again, I could see an argument for them making the breaches they are tied to easier to use, but not all the breaches.

That's true, but I feel that giving someone a class feature that isn't, well, useful is very... lame. Why give someone a class feature they never want to use if the rest of your powers aren't even that strong to begin with?

I do see your point though. Incursions should be something you want to avoid, but if you ever have to use them they should have a point. Making it so that your Breaches/Murmurs/Whathaveyou become Ex abilities in its area of effect does that I think.

[Eldan]

I mentioned this in a chat discussion with Matar already (I'm the DM of that game), but:

While some breaches do seem weak, making them swift actions won't solve much of the problem: you have a swift action breach, then nothing else to do with your standard action, which won't help the problem much.

[Matar]

Well, you can still say... charge, full attack, feint, trip, etc. Breaches back up your actions and such. I your point though...

Here are the changes that I suggested, in a real easy to read format!

1: Breaches become Swift Actions.

2: Incursions become Swift Actions.

3: In the area of an Incursion Breaches/Murmurs/Disturbances become Ex abilitys.

4: DC 25 Knowledge: Planes to tell you're in an area effected by a Far-Realms Incursion.

5: DC 15 Wisdom Check while interacting with the person who caused it to tell that he's the cause. 

6: Conscious Incursion increases the Wisdom Check by five, along with its normal effect.

7: Unhindered Incursion removes Wisdom check, along with it's normal effect.

8: Incursions no longer follow you around after you use them.

9: You automatically lower the level of one murmur every night, by one. If you have murmurs of matching levels then one is randomly lowered. You may choose not to lower it.

[Owrtho]

I'll point out that incursions are there as a weakness, not a benefit. They are something you want to avoid, but are occasionally forced to do (due to their increasing your will saves each day). They can be useful, but that isn't the main point. They are also the main penalty for reaching 7th level of a breach (along with the being incapacitated).

Owrtho

[Matar]

I understand that, but I see no reason for it. That is, this class really isn't strong to warrant a class feature that's there to just hurt them. I can understanding wanting it to be a power that should only be used in emergencies, but this is different.

They're still something you're going to want to avoid using, it's just less of a "kick in the ass" now. Unlike most other classes, if you're stuck in an Anti-Magic zone of Dead Magic Zone you now have some way of doing something... at the cost of using an Incursion.

I don't think it's a huge boost by any means. I could be wrong however.

They are also the main penalty for reaching 7th level of a breach (along with the being incapacitated).

Once you're Incapacitated why in the world do you need even more drawbacks? Seeing as how Breaches are your main class feature. Also, in order to use your strongest Breaches you need to be super close to crossing the line as is...

[Sereg]

After recently rereading this, I have to say that I still love this widget.

[Owrtho]

Also, if you are allowed to pick your incursions, some of them already can be quite useful, such as the elemental ones. Go up against an enemy and use one of those, then use the Rewoven Elements breaches. As a true xenothurgist you can have 3 murmurs active at a time, so could have 3 of the elemental incursions and use whichever is appropriate for the opponent.

As for the extraordinary ability thing, if that was done, I'd suggest it only be for breaches of the murmur tied to the incursion being used. The issue though id if incursions are extraordinary or not. They'd have to be too to work in anti-magic zones. Also, this may just be me, but I'd likely rule breaches and such always work in dead magic zones. Mainly due to the fact that you're providing the energies with the breach, so it need not rely on the environment (though that isn't in the rules so shouldn't be factored into balance).

Owrtho

[Matar]

Question: Are there any rules about using more then one Incursion at once? I see none, and... see no reason why you couldn't.

Also, if you are allowed to pick your incursions, some of them already can be quite useful, such as the elemental ones. Go up against an enemy and use one of those, then use the Rewoven Elements breaches. As a true xenothurgist you can have 3 murmurs active at a time, so could have 3 of the elemental incursions and use whichever is appropriate for the opponent.

True, but again... the boost isn't huge. And IMO you don't want the boost to be huge. Incursions are something you should avoid using, but when you do they should serve some purpose.

Now, for making it so that only the Breach tied to it becomes an Ex ability... well, that would be a good idea if that abilities working on all Breaches made it too powerful. But I don't think that it does. Not even in the slightest.

The issue though id if incursions are extraordinary or not.

They are Extraordinary. You're basically letting the Far-Realms overwrite reality for awhile, so it makes sense that it does IMO.

Also, I'm curious as to what you think of my other suggestions. I mean, that's all they are, but I'm still curious as to what you think about them.

[Owrtho]

Well, don't think #8 works. You're supposed to be the centre of the incursions, and it makes sense. If it were possible to just walk out of an incursion it would somewhat defeat the point. The fact they last 24 hours wouldn't be much of an issue any more. Just go somewhere isolated, let it off, and walk away leaving it there. Then the cumulative wisdom penalty not using them causes is no longer an issue.

Also there are feats to let you move it.

Owrtho

[Matar]

That is indeed a very good point. I take it you don't see much wrong with the other changes? (Besides what was already pointed out by Eldan)

[DragoonWraith]

Question: Are there any rules about using more then one Incursion at once? I see none, and... see no reason why you couldn't.

You certainly can, from what I can tell. Hell, getting to 7th level in a Murmur forces you to use all of them.