Pathfinder Artificer

[Evil the Cat]

With the release of Artificer and the elimination of crafting xp costs, I feel that something needs to be done for them.

By default, the first changes that would be made would be the increase to d8 hp, and the artificer spells that use xp now use 5x that in gold value, as all spell xp costs have been dropped.

I've put some time into this, and as I haven't been able to find any conversion for them listed anywhere, I decided to come up with my own. I would like any constructive suggestions regarding these ideas.

The craft reserve would be lost, I would suggest giving them an equivalent version of a sort of a gp reserve. Since they use a 1:5 conversion for spells that use xp, I'd simply make it 5x the listed value for gp, and give it a new description

Craft Reserve: An artificer's deeper understanding of magic items enables him to use various objects gathered while traveling in order to enchant items. An Artificer receives a pool of resources he can spend instead of gold when crafting a magic item. Each time the artificer gains a new level, he receives a new craft reserve; leftover points from the previous level do not carry over. If the points are not spent, they are lost. An artificer can also use his craft reserve to supplement the cost of the item he is making, taking a portion of the cost from his craft reserve and a portion from other materials.

Retain Essence (Su): At 5th level, an artificer gains the ability to salvage the crafting materials from a magic item and use those materials to create another magic item. The artificer must spend a day with the item, and he must also have the appropriate item creation feat for the item he is salvaging. After one day, the item is destroyed and the artificer adds the materials it took to create the item to his craft reserve. These points are lost if the artificer does not use them before gaining his next level.


To be more Pathfinderish, The artificer should also get something on most of the later "dead levels." I'm not really sure what to put in there aside from possibly more bonus feats.

[Kaldrin]

First post on these forums.

While I do agree with the Craft Pool and Retain Essence ability change, I'm not sure that an Artificer actually needs anything more. It was already a fairly powerful class (especially if you had a warforged hanging around).

The only suggestion I can think of would be some sort of wand, staff or rod specialization. Perhaps a special ability that lets them take a charge off the cost of applying meta-magic feats to those items.

[woodenbandman]

Now that pathfinder has destroyed WBL with its crafting system, an artificer is really unnecessary. Now if you want to make a dedicated crafter, you can still probably reduce your costs to 2% of market value even if you're not an artificer.

[arguskos]

Now that pathfinder has destroyed WBL with its crafting system, an artificer is really unnecessary. Now if you want to make a dedicated crafter, you can still probably reduce your costs to 2% of market value even if you're not an artificer.

I've heard a number of complaints about PF, but not this one. Care to share the details?

[Kaldrin]

I gotta be missing something obvious here... WBL?

[Sinfire Titan]

I gotta be missing something obvious here... WBL?

Wealth by Level. Its a chart in the DMG or PH2 or MiC. The SRD doesn't have it. Artificers are able to bypass it easily (sort of a big deal, but virtually anyone can).

[Cedrass]

Now that pathfinder has destroyed WBL with its crafting system, an artificer is really unnecessary. Now if you want to make a dedicated crafter, you can still probably reduce your costs to 2% of market value even if you're not an artificer.

What?... They only removed the XP cost. I fail to see how that ruins the WBL.

[imperialspectre]

Because gold costs, especially with the existence of feats that reduce gold costs, aren't actually costs, since you would have to pay (at least) twice as much to buy the items. If there's no penalty to your character for crafting, then every party should have a magic item producer or two who basically crank out magical items for half price, thus effectively doubling the party's wealth level.

[Gralamin]

Because gold costs, especially with the existence of feats that reduce gold costs, aren't actually costs, since you would have to pay (at least) twice as much to buy the items. If there's no penalty to your character for crafting, then every party should have a magic item producer or two who basically crank out magical items for half price, thus effectively doubling the party's wealth level.

To be fair, the XP penalty wasn't actually a penalty either, it just seemed like one (And yes, math has been done on it. Search up "XP is a river").

[taltamir]

that artifecer could have played something that contributed more to damage though. So reduced cost crafting? ok... By the time gold doesn't matter party and world balance is completely gone, so this is mainly for lower levels. And in those levels it is a sacrifice of abilities to play an artificer, for the ability to craft.

Also, to be fair parties should pay full price to the crafter's later on, because they are:
1. the only source of specific magic items
2. making the sacrifice of actually playing a crafter to aid the party... they could supplement their own powers with magic items, which they craft from the money the make by selling magic items to the party...
Basically the crafter is a mobile magic shop, rather then the party's bitch.

[theMycon]

To be fair, the XP penalty wasn't actually a penalty either, it just seemed like one (And yes, math has been done on it. Search up "XP is a river").

The only result that returns is this thread. "XP is up a river" returns nothing. In fact, the best that my (slightly intoxicated) google-fu can return is a handful of NWN crafting guides.

Care to provide a link? While I believe "you'll never be more than a level behind, no matter how much you craft, and you'll catch up withing 3 levels", I'd still like to see the exactness of it.

[taltamir]

basically, as you fall behind on XP, you get more XP for defeating the same enemies your party is. So you are never more than 2 or so levels behind the party at most. Your awesome loot more than compensates for that.

[Starbuck_II]

The only result that returns is this thread. "XP is up a river" returns nothing. In fact, the best that my (slightly intoxicated) google-fu can return is a handful of NWN crafting guides.

Care to provide a link? While I believe "you'll never be more than a level behind, no matter how much you craft, and you'll catch up withing 3 levels", I'd still like to see the exactness of it.

Okay, by default, you get exp for ECL. Yes, he records how much everyone gets and gives it out based on level.
So being lower level grants more XP (to an extent).

So if you are level 3 (from crafting lots of awesome gear) you get 20-30% more XP than a level 4 if the party is basically all level 4.

However, some DMs don't use the default rules for individual XP and instead make up a number of Xp for everyone equally. Not RAW, but easier than doing the math I guess.

[Kaldrin]

Wealth by Level. Its a chart in the DMG or PH2 or MiC. The SRD doesn't have it. Artificers are able to bypass it easily (sort of a big deal, but virtually anyone can).

If it's what I'm thinking of, doesn't that only apply to char gen of increased levels? We never made up high level chars in any games I've ever played... always started at first and went from there.

Edit: Okay, I found it in the pathfinder core book... looks bogus to me. I've never generated 1000gp by the time second level rolled around. My DMs must be tightwads... but on the same note, by 10th level we've had (from what I can recall) consistently more than what the chart shows. And that was with a 3.5 group consisting of mainly handbook characters with only one PrC on average. Actually, probably less than one PrC per character. The guy-who-played-wizards-all-the-time stuck with wizzies all the way through.

[Prax4788]

To be more Pathfinderish, The artificer should also get something on most of the later "dead levels." I'm not really sure what to put in there aside from possibly more bonus feats.

Artificers have no dead levels cause they gain infusions ever level

[Draxar]

Artificers have no dead levels cause they gain infusions ever level

So do Wizards and Sorcerers, but Pathfinder still gave them shiny new powers to make their levels less "You get spells, nowt else".

If it's what I'm thinking of, doesn't that only apply to char gen of increased levels? We never made up high level chars in any games I've ever played... always started at first and went from there.

Edit: Okay, I found it in the pathfinder core book... looks bogus to me. I've never generated 1000gp by the time second level rolled around. My DMs must be tightwads... but on the same note, by 10th level we've had (from what I can recall) consistently more than what the chart shows. And that was with a 3.5 group consisting of mainly handbook characters with only one PrC on average. Actually, probably less than one PrC per character. The guy-who-played-wizards-all-the-time stuck with wizzies all the way through.

Then you are technically 'doing it wrong'. Or repeatedly non-average. To go up a level you need to defeat X encounters of CR Y, or more or less if the CR goes down or up respectively. Said encounters should then be dropping gold, or other resources of a gold value that the average of which is set by the CR in question. Whilst random rolling may mean you get more or less in each individual encounter, on average, it should roughly even out.

For example, if a group of four ECL 1 characters face a CR 1 encounter, according to this calculator they should gain 75xp (I think each), and 300 gold pieces between them.

And the printed CRs assume you have approximately the appropriate WBL – at 10th level you should have approximately 49k's worth of stuff, and a CR 10 monster is built to be challenging to four 10th level characters each with about 49k's worth of stuff. Significantly worse or better equipment than that can mean you are steamrollered by or breeze through 'challenging' encounters.

[sonofzeal]

basically, as you fall behind on XP, you get more XP for defeating the same enemies your party is. So you are never more than 2 or so levels behind the party at most. Your awesome loot more than compensates for that.

It's worse than that. I played a dedicated crafter once who planned to be two levels behind the party, yet no matter how much xp I threw at it I was never more than half a level behind.

Even worse, because I would be gaining bonus xp for being behind, often I'd actually leapfrop and be ahead, since you don't level up in the middle of sessions.

[Catch]

The only result that returns is this thread. "XP is up a river" returns nothing. In fact, the best that my (slightly intoxicated) google-fu can return is a handful of NWN crafting guides.

Care to provide a link? While I believe "you'll never be more than a level behind, no matter how much you craft, and you'll catch up withing 3 levels", I'd still like to see the exactness of it.

Experience is a River.

[Prax4788]

So do Wizards and Sorcerers, but Pathfinder still gave them shiny new powers to make their levels less "You get spells, nowt else".

But they still don't have a class ability every level


the term "dead levels" was meant for like the fighter when he wasn't getting a feat he got nothing

that's why every class now gets ether spells or a class ability every level

the artificer already had a big list of class ability's \

shouldn't need anything new for pathfinder

[9mm]

What?... They only removed the XP cost. I fail to see how that ruins the WBL.

because now there is no reason to NOT just craft it yourself, essentially cutting the cost of all items to bargin bin prices.