Evil Beguiler Build questions.

[Obscurejones]

Is Mindbender(Complete Arcane) worth taking?
If not what should I take?
Any feats that leap to mind?

He's supposed to be the badguy infiltrating the Pc's group. Level is 10, Edition is 3.5, everything official is open.

[ghost_warlock]

From what I've read, Mindbender is good for a one-level dip to get telepathy and delay your second Advanced Learning so you can pick up shadow conjuration. (And then head into shadowcraft mage if you're a gnome.)

A feat to consider, with Mindbender, is Mindsight, in the tsochar section of Lords of Madness - it allows you to pinpoint the location of any intelligent creature within range.

If you go shadowcraft mage, pick up Earth Sense & Earth Spell (from Races of Stone) and Heighten Spell. Use these to augment silent image to a 10th level spell so you can mimic 9th-level evocation and conjuration spells. (Although, the character won't be doing this at 10th level! )

This may also be relevant to your interests.

[Myrmex]

Versatile Spellcaster (Dragon Magic, I think), lets you use lower level spell slots to cast higher level spells. This gives you access to spells two whole levels before you should have them. It's pretty sweet to cast second level spells when you're level 1.

[olentu]

Versatile Spellcaster (Dragon Magic, I think), lets you use lower level spell slots to cast higher level spells. This gives you access to spells two whole levels before you should have them. It's pretty sweet to cast second level spells when you're level 1.

If one wishes to use versatile spellcaster to cast spells of a higher level then one could normally cast as a beguiler one would also need heighten spell or something that gives knowledge of higher level spells for this to work.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If one wishes to use versatile spellcaster to cast spells of a higher level then one could normally cast as a beguiler one would also need heighten spell or something that gives knowledge of higher level spells for this to work.

Beguilers automatically know all the spells on their class list of every level they're able to cast. Being able to spend two 1st level spell slots to cast a 2nd level spell is enough to fulfill this, he does not have to do it in practice prior to that. It works similarly to a Wizard who upon gaining level 5 chooses not to learn any 3rd level spells, instead preparing 2nd level and lower spells in those spell slots. Upon his next level he wishes to gain a prestige class that requires a spellcasting ability of 3rd level spells, for which he has the capability regardless of whether or not he actually knows any. The spell slots are available for him to spend on spells of that level, so it is within that character's capabilities to cast spells of that level, even if he cannot do so in practice. Just the same, for a Beguiler with Versatile Spellcaster it is within the character's capabilities to cast spells of the next higher level, regardless of whether or not he actually knows any. Therefore, he has access to that level of spells and his class grants him knowledge of every spell of that level on the class spell list.

[olentu]

Beguilers automatically know all the spells on their class list of every level they're able to cast. Being able to spend two 1st level spell slots to cast a 2nd level spell is enough to fulfill this, he does not have to do it in practice prior to that. It works similarly to a Wizard who upon gaining level 5 chooses not to learn any 3rd level spells, instead preparing 2nd level and lower spells in those spell slots. Upon his next level he wishes to gain a prestige class that requires a spellcasting ability of 3rd level spells, for which he has the capability regardless of whether or not he actually knows any. The spell slots are available for him to spend on spells of that level, so it is within that character's capabilities to cast spells of that level, even if he cannot do so in practice. Just the same, for a Beguiler with Versatile Spellcaster it is within the character's capabilities to cast spells of the next higher level, regardless of whether or not he actually knows any. Therefore, he has access to that level of spells and his class grants him knowledge of every spell of that level on the class spell list.

I will say that this is wrong for the following reason.

It says that beguilers automatically know all spells of a level when they gain access to that new level of spells so unless that is redundant the beguiler would have to be lacking that knowledge before access to the new level of spells is gained.

And as per versatile spellcaster one can use two slots of a level to cast a spell that one knows that is one level higher.

Now if assuming that the passage about beguilers is not redundant for example a beguiler that can cast only first level spells does not know the spells of second level that are on the list. And so since versatile spellcaster requires that the spell cast must be one that you know a second level spell could not be cast because it is not known. Then since a second level spell could not be cast the beguiler would not gain knowledge of second level spells.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list."

By your reasoning, upon gaining 4th level and 2nd level spell slots a Beguiler would not gain knowledge of any 2nd level spells unless he had prior knowledge of 2nd level spells, because he cannot use those 2nd level spell slots to cast a 2nd level spell if he doesn't know any and thus does not have access to that level of spells. The character could cast spells of that level if he knows any, thus he has access to that level of spells and retroactively gains knowledge of those spells. It functions this way regardless of whether he gains enough levels to have spell slots of that level, or if he uses versatile spellcaster to be able to cast higher level spells from lower level spell slots.

[peacenlove]

Mother Cyst from libris mortis will give you access to spells to deal with mind affecting immune enemies as well as a potent buff.

[olentu]

"When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list."

By your reasoning, upon gaining 4th level and 2nd level spell slots a Beguiler would not gain knowledge of any 2nd level spells unless he had prior knowledge of 2nd level spells, because he cannot use those 2nd level spell slots to cast a 2nd level spell if he doesn't know any and thus does not have access to that level of spells. The character could cast spells of that level if he knows any, thus he has access to that level of spells and retroactively gains knowledge of those spells. It functions this way regardless of whether he gains enough levels to have spell slots of that level, or if he uses versatile spellcaster to be able to cast higher level spells from lower level spell slots.

Or alternatively I interpret gain access to a level of spells where the level number is equal to x to mean gain either a spell slot of level x or the ability to cast spells of level x. And as such there is no problem with my interpretation of versatile spellcaster that I can see assuming that one excuses my saying "a beguiler that can cast only first level spells" when I really mean a beguiler that is of a level where said beguiler only has been granted first level and zeroth level spell slots by the beguiler class and has not gained second or higher level spell slots form some other source or the ability to cast a spell that is or functions as a spell of second level or higher from any source (obviously before the application of versatile spellcaster even though the argument will conclude that it does not allow casting of spells that are or act as spells of second level or higher without some additional assistance).

[Wings of Peace]

Honestly I think discussing Rainbow Servant's evil variant would be more helpful than a rules debate on Versatile spellcaster. Casting spells a little ahead of time is nice. Having ALL cleric spells available spontaneously? Pure baby kicking joy.

[Gnorman]

Honestly I think discussing Rainbow Servant's evil variant would be more helpful than a rules debate on Versatile spellcaster. Casting spells a little ahead of time is nice. Having ALL cleric spells available spontaneously? Pure baby kicking joy.

Pure broken, though. If you want to play a cleric, play a cleric! The Beguiler is powerful enough on its own without resorting to Rainbow Cheese.

Oh and as a side note: man do not take Biffoniacous Furiou to task on rules because that is just all kinds of a losing proposition.

[Faulty]

Yeah, Mindbender is just a general choice for a 1 level dip at level 6 to push back your second Advanced Learning. Really, any class with a +1 of caster at first level would work.

[Gnorman]

Just be aware that by RAW Telepathy is a standard action to activate. Which is sad, because Talking is no longer a Free Action.

But Mindsight is awesome. Take Darkstalker too, and you're not only real sneaky, but you foil most kinds of stealth automatically.

[Bulwer]

Yeah, Mindbender is just a general choice for a 1 level dip at level 6 to push back your second Advanced Learning. Really, any class with a +1 of caster at first level would work.

The reason you see Mindbender a lot over all the other perfectly fine 1-level dips is for the telepathy, and then Mindsight, which is pretty great.

[Gnaeus]

Fiend Blooded (HoH) Dracolexi (RotD) Sandshaper (Sand) are all also options depending on what flavor you want your baddy to be and how optimized you want to make him. Anything that gives the beguiler more spells known is a big boost.

To be truly effective, Beguilers need to expand their spell list. If you can't/don't want to do that with prestige classes, the easiest way is to get Arcane Disciple (CD) for a domain with a good spell list and have a decent wisdom.

Versatile Spellcaster is a Rules as Interpreted question. You are DM, so it is entirely up to you how to rule that mess. I think using it that way is a deliberate misreading of the rules.

[olentu]

Oh and as a side note: man do not take Biffoniacous Furiou to task on rules because that is just all kinds of a losing proposition.

It would not say that it is a losing proposition from the results of my past debates on this same subject.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Or alternatively I interpret gain access to a level of spells where the level number is equal to x to mean gain either a spell slot of level x or the ability to cast spells of level x. And as such there is no problem with my interpretation of versatile spellcaster that I can see assuming that one excuses my saying "a beguiler that can cast only first level spells" when I really mean a beguiler that is of a level where said beguiler only has been granted first level and zeroth level spell slots by the beguiler class and has not gained second or higher level spell slots form some other source or the ability to cast a spell that is or functions as a spell of second level or higher from any source (obviously before the application of versatile spellcaster even though the argument will conclude that it does not allow casting of spells that are or act as spells of second level or higher without some additional assistance).

Your reasoning implies a double standard. You insist that Versatile Spellcaster must fulfill casting that level of spells in practice to gain knowledge of that level of spells, but not that gaining spell slots of that level fulfill casting that level of spells in practice to do so. Similarly, if you were to apply that standard universally, any character with a prestige class that requires casting of a certain level of spells who's used up his spells of that level and higher for the day would cease to fulfill that requirement in practice and therefore lose access to his prestige class' features until he prepared his spells again. This is not the case, as the same standards are applied to all characters equally, and there is no in practice standard applied to any aspect of spellcasting in the game.

Furthermore, in WotC's own example a character is able to spend two 1st level spell slots to cast a metamagic version of a 1st level spell he knows via Versatile Spellcaster. You're adhering to the feat's condition of knowing a spell of that level in order to use the feat, but this is clearly not the feat's only use. The very first sentence of the feat that states the idea that the feat was designed around says, "You can use two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell one level higher." The statement to which you refer does not so rigidly limit it as you claim, it was included so a character couldn't try to use the feat to cast a spell that he would otherwise never have access to, including both characters with a very limited number of spells known and spells that don't even appear on the character's class list. It is not a condition of the feat's usability, as in the example I linked a character has no knowledge of spells of that level but is able to use Versatile Spellcaster regardless of the limitation that you claim is in place. You're trying to say that the rules imply restrictions that do not exist, and it is creating a double standard that requires certain characters to fulfill requirements in practice while no other character must do so.

[Frosty]

Just be aware that by RAW Telepathy is a standard action to activate. Which is sad, because Talking is no longer a Free Action.

But Mindsight is awesome. Take Darkstalker too, and you're not only real sneaky, but you foil most kinds of stealth automatically.

What? When? AFAIK, Telepathy is constantly active.

[olentu]

Your reasoning implies a double standard. You insist that Versatile Spellcaster must fulfill casting that level of spells in practice to gain knowledge of that level of spells, but not that gaining spell slots of that level fulfill casting that level of spells in practice to do so. Similarly, if you were to apply that standard universally, any character with a prestige class that requires casting of a certain level of spells who's used up his spells of that level and higher for the day would cease to fulfill that requirement in practice and therefore lose access to his prestige class' features until he prepared his spells again. This is not the case, as the same standards are applied to all characters equally, and there is no in practice standard applied to any aspect of spellcasting in the game.

Furthermore, in WotC's own example a character is able to spend two 1st level spell slots to cast a metamagic version of a 1st level spell he knows via Versatile Spellcaster. You're adhering to the feat's condition of knowing a spell of that level in order to use the feat, but this is clearly not the feat's only use. The very first sentence of the feat that states the idea that the feat was designed around says, "You can use two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell one level higher." The statement to which you refer does not so rigidly limit it as you claim, it was included so a character couldn't try to use the feat to cast a spell that he would otherwise never have access to, including both characters with a very limited number of spells known and spells that don't even appear on the character's class list. It is not a condition of the feat's usability, as in the example I linked a character has no knowledge of spells of that level but is able to use Versatile Spellcaster regardless of the limitation that you claim is in place. You're trying to say that the rules imply restrictions that do not exist, and it is creating a double standard that requires certain characters to fulfill requirements in practice while no other character must do so.

I clearly stated that there are two conditions that one could fulfill that I would consider as gaining access to spells of level x. Having a spell slot of level x is clearly stated as a condition that fulfills gaining access to spells of level x and as such it does not matter if those spell slots fulfill the standard of "casting that level of spells" since they fulfill the other condition so there is no problem.

Also I will note that from my explanation "a prestige class that requires casting of a certain level of spells" is a different requirement to gaining access to a level of spells as I clearly (to me at least) stated that gaining access to a level of spells could be fulfilled by having a spell slot of level x as well as being able to cast spells of level x. And so the more specific prestige class ability is a different case.

So it appears to me that you are only considering one of the methods (casting that level of spells) that I had listed as fulfilling the condition of gaining access to spells of level x and if the other method (having a spell slot of that level of spells) is included there is no problem.



I do not take wizards of the coast examples as rules since they have been wrong before and as such if the example can not be reproduced following the rules then it is of no use to me and if it can be reproduced following the rules then it is also useless since one could just reproduce the the example using the rules.

So unless you can provide a reproduction of the example using the rules then I shall dismiss said example as not following the rules.

I am not basing anything on the passage "You can use two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell one level higher." My argument is based on this passage from the benefit section of the feat "You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher." As the only other part of the benefit section is an example I must take that as the benefit and the only benefit of the feat and thus as a limit on the feats usability.

And again please reproduce the example directly from the rules if you wish me to take it into consideration.

[Gnaeus]

Guys, the OP hasn't expressed any curiosity about versatile spellcaster. Can't we just agree that it is a rules interpretation that some campaigns allow and some don't, leave it up to him, and answer his question?

[olentu]

Guys, the OP hasn't expressed any curiosity about versatile spellcaster. Can't we just agree that it is a rules interpretation that some campaigns allow and some don't, leave it up to him, and answer his question?

While the OP has not expressed any curiosity more specific then in the first post to which this discussion can apply and while I would prefer to continue the discussion I do see that it could be distracting from the intent of the thread and so could agree to end the discussion without resolution.

[Gnorman]

What? When? AFAIK, Telepathy is constantly active.

It's a rules issue. Since Telepathy is (Su), and all (Su) abilities take standard actions to activate unless otherwise noted in the entry, and because Telepathy doesn't note otherwise in the entry, it's by RAW a standard action.

Of course, it doesn't make a lot of sense. I've seen DMs rule it either way, but I'm of the mind that taking an action to activate it is rules lawyering.

Still, it's something to be aware of.

Basically, it should work out like this:

If Telepathy is a free action, by all that is unholy, take a one level dip into Mindbender. You want to delay your Advanced Learning anyway, and getting Telepathy is so nice for your language-dependent abilities. Mindsight is just an added bonus.

If Telepathy is a standard action, find something else. It's just going to eat up actions and screw you over in the end.

[erikun]

Well, since OP asked what feats/other options he should take, mentioning Versatile Spellcaster is probably a good idea.

Just as taking one look at the discussion and avoiding the feat at all costs is probably a good idea for the OP.

Myself, as a DM? I wouldn't allow it at all. Sorcerers gain access to 2nd level spells at caster level 4, and no amount of feat trickery would allow you to cast 2nd level spells before that. I'd hold the same for the Beguiler - that they can't cast 2nd level spells before caster level [whatever it states in the book].

If a player wants to know why it doesn't work, it's because it would be imbalancing otherwise. If the want to know an in-game reason why it doesn't work, then their character is free to engage in costly spell research while I come up with an appropriate answer.

[peacenlove]

SRD for Telepathy

Telepathy is as hard to perform as normal speech. IMO it shouldn't take an action.
Edit:
I realise it might be a weak argument but if the SRD compares telepathy with normal speech and normal speech is a free action then telepathy should also be a free action.

[Gnorman]

SRD for Telepathy

Telepathy is as hard to perform as normal speech. IMO it shouldn't take an action.
Edit:
I realise it might be a weak argument but if the SRD compares telepathy with normal speech and normal speech is a free action then telepathy should also be a free action.

It is very important to note that I agree with you completely, but that it is not how the rules are written.

Then, of course, we get into the endless debate of RAI and RAW. Suffice it to say that by the strictest interpretation of the rules as possible, telepathy requires the standard action.

If you have a DM with even the slightest measure of sanity, he won't enforce this.

Sheesh all this makes me want to go to law school. You know, real law school. Not rules law school.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I addressed this in the first example I gave: A Wizard who gains spell slots of the next level but does not know any spells of that level is just as incapable of casting spells of that level as a Beguiler with Versatile Spellcaster is incapable of casting spells of the next higher level. Both of those characters have just as much potential to cast spells of that level, but you completely ignored the example itself with regards to the Wizard who does not learn any spells of the highest level he has slots for.


Telepathy is a supernatural ability, but it works similar to a Unicorn's supernatural Magic Circle effect. The ability requires no activation, it's simply always active, and the character can benefit from it as described for the entire duration. It works similarly to the feat Combat Manifestation, a psionic feat and therefore a supernatural ability. You don't have to spend any action to gain its +4 to Concentration checks, its effect is always active though it may not be apparent until it would be used, similar to Telepathy. Regardless, Mindsight is a feat, which is extraordinary unless noted otherwise, and it simply works within the range of your telepathy as described without any activation required.

[Random832]

and normal speech is a free action

This is written where in the SRD?

[kamikasei]

This is written where in the SRD?

Here, unless you're trying to make the point that you cannot speak for as long as you could possibly want and still say it's a free action, which wouldn't appear to be relevant to what you're quoting.

[olentu]

I addressed this in the first example I gave: A Wizard who gains spell slots of the next level but does not know any spells of that level is just as incapable of casting spells of that level as a Beguiler with Versatile Spellcaster is incapable of casting spells of the next higher level. Both of those characters have just as much potential to cast spells of that level, but you completely ignored the example itself with regards to the Wizard who does not learn any spells of the highest level he has slots for.

Well if it will not be a mutually agreeable halt to the discussion then here we go.

I this is the example "It works similarly to a Wizard who upon gaining level 5 chooses not to learn any 3rd level spells, instead preparing 2nd level and lower spells in those spell slots. Upon his next level he wishes to gain a prestige class that requires a spellcasting ability of 3rd level spells, for which he has the capability regardless of whether or not he actually knows any. The spell slots are available for him to spend on spells of that level, so it is within that character's capabilities to cast spells of that level, even if he cannot do so in practice." then to be clear I am interpreting the phrase "requires a spellcasting ability of 3rd level spells" to be equivalent to "Able to cast 3rd-level spells."

Now then I would have to say that I would not allow a wizard to take said level if said wizard was not able to actually "Able to cast 3rd-level spells." any more then I would allow a wizard to enter a prestiege class that requires for example that said wizard has "knowledge of 5th-level or higher spells from at least five schools" unless the wizard actually has that knowledge.

So I am saying that even though the wizards could after some spell scribing satisfy either the requirement of "knowledge of 5th-level or higher spells from at least five schools" or the requirement of being "Able to cast 3rd-level spells." I would not count that as actually working unless said wizard is actually able to do so. This is similar to how I would not allow a wizard to enter a prestige class that requires being "Able to cast 3rd-level spells." if said wizard had an int of 12 as while the wizard is theoretically able to cast said spells by getting a int boosting item they can not do so without getting said item. So any requirements that could theoretically be fulfilled by the character (such as having made made peaceful contact with an evil outsider who was summoned by him or someone else) but have not yet actually been fulfilled I would not count for entering a prestige class. Please note that if there is some statement in the rules that says that having a slot of level 3 counts as being able to cast spells of level 3 for the purposes of taking levels in a prestige class or something of a similar nature then I do not remember it and would be like to be directed to it.

In any case this is not the same situation as the the one that is being discussed. In the wizard example it is being able to theoretically fulfill a requirement for a prestige class so that said wizard can take the class at the next level. In this case you are talking about a feat that when the requirement of gaining access to spells of level x is fulfilled then the feat will fulfill the requirement of gaining access to spells of level x. Then you seem to be saying that as since as soon as the requirement of gaining access to spells of level x is satisfied the feat will satisfy the requirement of gaining access to spells of level x and so we should just skip the first part and go right to where the feat satisfies the requirement of gaining access to spells of level x.

So I say that the prestige class example is one that I would both rule differently from you barring some rule that I do not remember specifically allowing your example to be correct and that your prestige class example is different from the situation being discussed and so it does not matter who is correct regarding that example.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There are prestige classes that require "3rd level spellcasting ability" or similar wording. In that case, the wizard in my example has 3rd level spells within his realm of capabilities, and therefore would fulfill that requirement. Even though he may not know any specific 3rd level spells, that character has the proper understanding of magic to cast 3rd level spells and is inarguably capable of doing so, should he learn any. That character has access to that level of spells, he has the proper understanding of that level of magic in general even if he doesn't know any specific spells of that level with which to demonstrate that ability.

Versatile Spellcaster grants a character the proper understanding of magic to cast the next level of spells, and while he may not know any specific spells of that level he is inarguably capable of casting spells of that level should he learn any. He is just as capable of casting that level of spells as the wizard in my example, therefore he has access to that level of spells even if he doesn't know any specific spells with which to demonstrate that ability.

Just the same, if a Wizard loses his spellbook he becomes incapable of preparing spells apart from Read Magic, assuming he hasn't taken Spell Mastery. If that character is currently no longer capable of preparing and casting spells of a certain level, would he then lose access to a prestige class? He still has that ability, but lacking the ability to demonstrate it is not the same as lacking the ability.