Making bards useful

[rezplz]

I've always liked bards for their flavor - but whenever I play them, they seem to lack function. So I was wondering if there would be a way to play a bard and get both flavor and function out of it.

I'm not really looking to multiclass, unless if there's a prestige class that I MUST HAVE. I would prefer to keep things core, but I'm allowed to use the complete series so I might look into that.

[Myshlaevsky]

What do you mean by function? Effectiveness? I once played an effective bard by using him to talk to people and tie them up for multiple rounds while the rest of the party dropped an invisible elephant on them.

[rezplz]

What the crap man. Who the hell's gonna do a retarded strategy like that? ;P

Anywho. I know they can be useful out-of-combat, as the party face. But when my friend's DMing - the only time I get to actually play a character - that doesn't seem to come into play. So I'm looking for how a bard could help kick ass in combat and pull his own weight.

[Myshlaevsky]

What the crap man. Who the hell's gonna do a retarded strategy like that? ;P

Anywho. I know they can be useful out-of-combat, as the party face. But when my friend's DMing - the only time I get to actually play a character - that doesn't seem to come into play. So I'm looking for how a bard could help kick ass in combat and pull his own weight.

I think the melee bard build is usually based around Snowflake Wardance, but you might be able to make a thrower using Dragonfire Inspiration?

I know Solo, an old poster on these forums, once made a decent melee bard using Snowflake Wardance and Iajutsu Focus, but you'd need to have that skill houseruled in.

[rezplz]

Yeah, all of that just went straight over my head. D: I only know core, so you're going to have to explain what all of that actually means, please.

[Frosty]

Yeah, all of that just went straight over my head. D: I only know core, so you're going to have to explain what all of that actually means, please.

Core only, you can't make bards that good. They don't have the tools. you need a lot of feats, spells, and items from many others books to give him the power.

[Myshlaevsky]

Yeah, all of that just went straight over my head. D: I only know core, so you're going to have to explain what all of that actually means, please.

Snowflake Wardance lets you add your Cha mod to one-handed slashing weapon attacks by expending a use of the bardic music ability.

Iajutsu Focus is a skill that lets you add a certain number of +xd4 or +xd6 (can't remember) damage to attacks when your opponent is flatflooted, by making a skill check.

Dragonfire Inspiration (I think) lets you add +xd6 elemental damage to allies' attacks.

[rezplz]

What books are those from? And for the snowflake wardance, I use up one bardic music to add CHA to my weapon attack/damage once?

[Frosty]

Snowflake Wardance lets you add your Cha mod to one-handed slashing weapon attacks by expending a use of the bardic music ability.

Iajutsu Focus is a skill that lets you add a certain number of +xd4 or +xd6 (can't remember) damage to attacks when your opponent is flatflooted, by making a skill check.

Dragonfire Inspiration (I think) lets you add +xd6 elemental damage to allies' attacks.

AND your own attacks. Don't forget that.

What books are those from? And for the snowflake wardance, I use up one bardic music to add CHA to my weapon attack/damage once?

From Frostburn. You use one music to do it for a number of turns = to half your ranks in Perform methinks?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Here is what you must do:

Race: Silverbrow Human (Races of the Dragon)

Feats
Snowflake Wardance: 1 use of bardic music lets you add Cha mod to attack for a number of rounds equal to your ranks in Perform: Dance (Frostburn)
Power Attack
Dragonfire Inspiration (Races of the Dragon)
Haunting Melody: One use of bardic music means everyone who can hear you must make a aill Save or be shaken (Lords of Madness?)
Song of the Heart (+1 to IC)
Melodic Casting: Let syou cast spells and etc while singing. Lets you use Perofrm instead of Concentration for Concentration checks related to spellcasting.

ACF: Bardic Knack. Gives 1/2 your bard level, rounded up, in place of skill ranks on all skills. Must have 1 rank in trained skills to use. (PHBII)

Spells:
Inspirational Boost: Gives +1 to Ic (Spell Compendium)
Improvisation: Gives a floating pool of luck points equal to 4 times your caster level. At any time, you can add 1/2 your caster level, rounded down, worht of points to a single attack roll, skill check, or ability check. (SpC)

Items:
Badge of Courage: Gives +1 to IC (Magic Item Compendiium)
Arbmands of Might: (4,100) Gives a +2 bonus on damage if you PA for -2 or more. (Sourcebook unknown)
Gloves of the Balanced Hand: Gives you TWF for 8,00 GP. Dual wield and go to town with your damage! (MiC)

Weapon:
Crystal Echoblade: Adds your bard level in sonic damage to the weapon. Is a +1 longsword otherwise.

Enchantment:
Harmonizing Weapon
Holds your song for 10 rounds while you do other things.

[Myshlaevsky]

What books are those from? And for the snowflake wardance, I use up one bardic music to add CHA to my weapon attack/damage once?

Snowflake Wardance is from Frostburn, but I don't know about the other two. I believe Iajutsu Focus is from the 3.0 book Oriental Adventures. Check this.

You use up one bardic music to add Cha mod to your attack roll with a one-handed slashing weapon. You must not be wearing medium or heavy armour or using a shield.

[Doc Roc]

Dragonfire inspiration is the one you want. Here's a nice example with reference citations (Joe of Ark)

Iaijatsu, while excellent, is difficult to pursue without it as a class skill which really limits who can do it. That's more of a factotum thing, to be entirely honest, for a variety of reasons.

[rezplz]

Unfortunately, we're only using core and the complete series - we're not using any other books in our campaign.

[Frosty]

I can't find Silverbrow Human in Races of dragon. What page is it on?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I can't find Silverbrow Human in Races of dragon. What page is it on?

It might be in Dragon Magic.

[ErrantX]

Dragon Magic, page 6 for Silverbrow humans. Dragonfire Inspiration is also in Dragon Magic, not Races of the Dragon.

-X

[Ernir]

In core, Bards are not very powerful. They just aren't.

The quickest fix you can find in just the Complete Series is to take Sublime Chord, a PrC from Complete Arcane. Increases the Bard's power by making it function more like a Sorcerer.

Aside from that, the good Bard stuff is scattered all over the books. Of all the PHB classes, I guess Bard is the one that gains the most from the words "all WotC 3.5 books allowed.".

You have...
Song of the Heart (feat, Eberron Campaign Setting. Adds +1 to your Inspire Courage.)
Words of Creation (feat, Book of Exalted Deeds. Doubles your Inspire Courage bonus.)
Dragonfire Inspiration (feat, Dragon Magic IIRC. Instead of Inspire Courage adding +x to attack and damage rolls, it now adds xd6 elemental damage.)
Song of the White Raven (feat, Tome of Battle. While in a White Raven stance, initiate Bardic Music as a swift action.)
Snowflake Wardance (feat, Frostburn. Expend Bardic Music use to gain your charisma to Attack Rolls, has restrictions.)
Slippers of Battledancing (item, Dungeon Master's Guide 2. Replace charisma with strength on attack and damage rolls, restrictions, other benefits.)
Crystal Echoblade, Harmonizing weapons (items, Magic Item Compendium. Various effects.)

And so on. And I am definitely forgetting/unaware of something. The more books you open up, the better your bard gets. =/

[Signmaker]

Oh, bards can be quite effective when built right. *whistle*

I don't believe that anyone has mentioned the amazing Slippers of Battledance yet. DMG II, well worth the look.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Slippers of Battledancing (item, Dungeon Master's Guide 2. Replace charisma with strength on attack and damage rolls, restrictions, other benefits.)

Must move 10 ft or more per round to gain the effect.

Oh, bards can be quite effective when built right. *whistle*

I don't believe that anyone has mentioned the amazing Slippers of Battledance yet. DMG II, well worth the look.

Actually...

[Ernir]

Unfortunately, we're only using core and the complete series - we're not using any other books in our campaign.

Ah. Oops.

Complete Adventurer and Complete Mage have a few goodies. Melodic Casting (cast spells while using Bardic Music) is in CMage, and a few specialized instruments and feats are in CAdv.

Lyric Thaumaturge is a fine PrC in CMage, and I keep seeing people using Virtuoso from CAdv to advance the improved casting you get from Sublime Chord.

[fliprushman]

If you want to make an effective bard in combat, you need to figure out in what area of combat you want to focus in. A bards greatest strength is that he is so versatile.

If you want to focus on spellcasting, then you will find that a bard is great at battlefield control. Many of the spells available to them cause the enemy to either fight on your side or stand there and take it like a little !@#$#

If you want to focus on melee, use existing weapons or opt for a better weapon with a feat. After you have chosen your melee weapon, begin to focus on picking spells, feats, and skills that complement this choice. You won't be a straight up fighter, but you can take over the roll for a limited time to help out. Your songs will also help you in this role.

If you want to focus on archery, you will want to do a take a bit from both aforementioned examples, disabling spells and feats, skills and such to augment you ability to use a bow.

This is by no way a complete list of things a bard can do because you can focus on your music too but first I would like to hear what aspect of combat you want to focus on. That way we can fine tune the class to what you want it to be.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

There's always Bard/Ur Priest/Sublime Chord/Mystic Theurge

[ericgrau]

I've always liked bards for their flavor - but whenever I play them, they seem to lack function. So I was wondering if there would be a way to play a bard and get both flavor and function out of it.

I'm not really looking to multiclass, unless if there's a prestige class that I MUST HAVE. I would prefer to keep things core, but I'm allowed to use the complete series so I might look into that.

Option 1: Powerful prestige class(es).

Option 2: These are all strong options; I'm not just trying to make a long list. Whip to trip (pump strength), and disarm things that have a disarm penalty. Like holy symbols, spell component pouches, bows, etc. And b/c whips are cool. Get batman spells on your list instead of the weaker +X buffs. They're good even at the lower bard level, and quite interesting and functional. Buff or sing only outside of combat. Craft magic items as well as a full caster level, like +X items and skillmonkey items. Be a skillmonkey for that matter. UMD, tumble, knowledge, etc. Grab CLW wands and be the between battle healer, plus utility scrolls for misc applications. 1 level dips nd feats can tack on more utility abilities, but it's not necessary. Bards probably have more different functional & strong options than anyone, you just gotta find which options to use and which are just a boring waste of rounds. Like in-combat songs and sword swinging are not so hot w/o prestiges.

[woodenbandman]

A good Bard build for core/completes only is Bard8/Virtuoso2/Sublime Chord2/Virtuoso +8. It gets you the bardic music of a 16th level bard plus 9th level spells. You could from there focus on your Inspire Courage (with items and a few things outside of core/completes) and spells. If you want a battle bard, sub out some of those bard levels for barbarian and go into Abjurant Champion and Eldritch Knight after level 12.

[Fax Celestis]

Okay, he has Monkey Grip, but he's also got a Huge (literally) greatsword. And a whole mess of tricks up his sleeve. (warning: Pathfinder + BoXM)

[Amadi]

Allright, I am going to assume 28 Point Buy here (For stats), and create you a core+completes only example build. Not something that you should follow exactly, but to give ideas on what bards can and cannot do. I'll also add notes to explain my choices.

Race: Human

Reasoning: The bonus feat is important, and skills help you as well. Often regarded the best core race.

Stats:
Str: 8
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 16

Reasoning: Strength isn't very important unless you want to focus in melee combat. Charisma is your most important stat, as you want high spell save DCs. Wisdom doesn't help your skills and bards have good will saves naturally. Dexterity and Constitution help you survive, and Intelligence lets you have a lot of skills. Use all your stat increases from levels on Charisma.

Feats:
01st(Base): Melodic Casting (Complete Mage)
01st(Human): Spell Focus (Conjuration) (Player's Handbook)
03rd(Base): Obtain Familiar (Complete Arcane)
06th(Base): Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration) (Player's Handbook)
09th(Base): Lingering Song (Complete Adventurer)

Reasoning: Melodic Casting is phenomenal, it reduces the amount of skills you need to max, and allows you to cast while singing. Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration) are maybe not the best feats in the world, but considering your limited options they are really nice as they boost the save DC of your best spells: Glitterdust and Grease (More on that later.). Obtain Familiar is absolutely brilliant - It allows you to get a familiar as a sorcerer/wizard does, but because they have the same skills and BaB as their master does, your familiar will actually be better than the wizard's! Lingering Song allows you to start singing one song, stop it and start another, giving your allies the benefit of both of them, which can turn battles around.

Skills:
Perform (Sing): Maximum
Spellcraft: Maximum
Hide: Maximum
Move Silently: Maximum
Listen: Maximum
Bluff: Maximum
Diplomacy: Maximum
Use Magic Device: Maximum
Sense Motive: 5
Balance: 5

Reasoning: These are the skills I like most, basically. Perform is very good as you can use it in place of concentration to avoid losing your spells. Move Silently / Hide allow you to work as the party scout - And make your familiar stealthier as well! Diplomacy and Bluff help you out of combat. 5 Ranks in Sense Motive give you synergy bonus to Diplomacy, and 5 ranks in Balance means you don't lose your dexterity bonus to AC when balancing. (Just take those when you can, you have 1 leftover point/level after maxing your other skills.)

Spells:
0th level:
Summon Instrument (Allows you to summon flygels to block pathways, etc.)
1st level:
Grease (Really, REALLY strong spell. Cast this under your opponents feet and watch them fall. Makes them really easy targets for the rest of your party.)
Charm (Absurdly useful out-of-combat spell. Less useful in combat.)
2nd level:
Glitterdust (This thing blinds opponents. Just don't hit your team and you're good to go.)
Hold Person (If the target fails his saving throw, he's as good as dead.)
3rd level:
Dispel Magic (Really good spell for countering enemy wizards.)
Haste (Buff this on your allies and they love you even more.)

Reasoning: Your role in combat is to support your allies, and these spells do just that. They either make your allies stronger, or incapacicate your enemies. A hasted fighter augmented by your Inspire Courage is a scary sight for a prone foe indeed!

Items:
As goog Cloak of Charisma as you can afford, Masterwork Drum (Complete Adventurer) and Mithral Chainmail are very good choices. Also get a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, as they are cheap and allow you to replace the party cleric as out-of-combat healer. Wands of other spells can be handy, as well. Beyond these core items, anything that strikes your eye as an interesting choice should work.

I hope this mini-guide helped you in your journey to bardhood.

[Doc Roc]

Why monkey grip? Just take strong-arm bracers instead, Fax. Same effect, non-stacking. Cheap, too. MiC.

[rezplz]

flip: Thanks for the options. Problem is, I'm not sure exactly what I want to focus on yet. I guess I have a preference for spells, then melee, and then archery.


wooden: What book is virtuoso from? And I'm guessing batman spells are stuff like grease that's good in specific situations if you plan right?

[Fax Celestis]

Why monkey grip? Just take strong-arm bracers instead, Fax. Same effect, non-stacking. Cheap, too. MiC.

Pathfinder's starting wealth is atrociously low. ECL 5 gives me 10,500 gold to work with, and Strongarms are about 2/3rds of that.

[sofawall]

Dragonfire inspiration is the one you want. Here's a nice example with reference citations (Joe of Ark)

Iaijatsu, while excellent, is difficult to pursue without it as a class skill which really limits who can do it. That's more of a factotum thing, to be entirely honest, for a variety of reasons.

I think I recognize that build :P