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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    I couldn't find any rules on it, but if, for example, a wizard was falling and just before hitting the ground, would he get out of the falling damage or would he still have his momentum and take the damage anyway?

    It's pretty important for multiple ideas that I have, one of which would include the "dumb-bomb" thread I posted earlier :).

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    D&D does not follow real world dynamics.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    You're not allowed to doctor the Giant's work for your purposes. I would suggest a new avatar and signature.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Claudius: Thanks, I didn't realize that. Gonna try to find a new one pretty soon.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by quick_comment View Post
    D&D does not follow real world dynamics.
    Which means, whichever way the DM rules is your answer.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    If you think about it, teleportation must not transfer momentum. Consider that you're standing on a spinning ball orbiting around a giant fireball which is also rotating about the galactic core which in turn is speeding away from every other galaxy in the universe. You actually have a lot of momentum that you're not aware of.

    Go to http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...econdaryPowers
    and look up teleportation.
    Last edited by nightwyrm; 2009-08-21 at 01:12 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    D&D doesn't have momentum. You go from a standstill to your full running speed instantly, and stop again just as quickly. Gravity can cause falling damage, but you running into a wall at the same speed doesn't do anything; you just stop. You can't even use momentum to push someone backward; the check to bull rush someone is based on your Strength, not mass, and doesn't change if your speed is 10' or 100'.

    Since D&D doesn't have momentum, there's nothing to conserve. Just as you can run full tilt and stop, a fast-moving character who Teleports can also stop at arrival, instantly and with no effort.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Well, nobody says that we are on a rotating, orbiting planet in D&D. The prime material could be infinite. It could be a spherical manifold. Again, you cant use real world physics here.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    And since teleportation goes through the Astral Plane anyway, wouldn't this all "would-ve" momentum?
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by quick_comment View Post
    Well, nobody says that we are on a rotating, orbiting planet in D&D. The prime material could be infinite. It could be a spherical manifold. Again, you cant use real world physics here.
    If we're not using real world physics, there's no reason to assume the law of conservation of momentum so the original question is moot from a physics standpoint. *shrug*

    Short answer to the OP's question, the teleport spell does whatever your DM wants it to do.
    Last edited by nightwyrm; 2009-08-21 at 01:29 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    DMG has the passage about assuming normal laws of physics. As charging gives you a bonus to attacking, obviously the game models momentum to a degree. Also, flying rules. Given that Teleport doesn't alter the object it's moving, only moves it, it by default needs to maintain momentum; otherwise it would be a transmutation.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2009-08-21 at 04:52 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    DMG has the passage about assuming normal laws of physics. As charging gives you a bonus to attacking, obviously the game models momentum to a degree. Given that Teleport doesn't alter the object it's moving, only moves it, it by default needs to maintain momentum; otherwise it would be a transmutation.
    DnD only models physics sporadically and accidentally, and the way the rules are worded allows for prodigious, physics-defying feats of ungodly power without ever touching a spell or going beyond first level.

    Don't believe me? It's fairly simple - here's one example of DnD momentum in action: You line up approximately 13,500 level 1 commoners, and all but the first two set a readied action to grapple the preceding commoner's grapple opponent away from them as soon as the preceding commoner grapples. Then the second commoner in line grapples the first one, and everyone's readied action goes off - each commoner will choose to fail every grapple check they make except the first one.

    The first commoner will be transferred to the end of the line in under six seconds - easily going ten times the speed of sound. It wouldn't be stretching the point to say that everyone involved might die of sonic or fire damage, except that they won't - there is absolutely no penalty of any sort for doing this, other than the part where you have to convince 13,500 commoners to participate and line them up.

    And that, kids, is how catgirls die. Don't bother trying to look for consistency and sense in your DnD physics, just take everyone else's excellent advice ask the DM what happens.
    Last edited by Jade_Tarem; 2009-08-21 at 05:06 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    No, because (don't quote me on this) teleport utilizes the astral plane.
    If you had a feat or something that let you stop relying on other planes when you teleport, then your speed would be maintained.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono22 View Post
    No, because (don't quote me on this) teleport utilizes the astral plane.
    If you had a feat or something that let you stop relying on other planes when you teleport, then your speed would be maintained.
    This, simply because it relies on game logic and not physics.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    I'd largely go by a blend of Rule of Cool and Rule of Funny. In other words, the momentum you have after teleporting varies wildly depending on how much it wound amuse me.

    For example, the 8-bit Theatre strip where Sarda teleports the Light Warriors, who are plummeting to their doom, into his cave. As they strike the ground with considerable force, he remarks: "Interesting. It seems teleportation does nothing at all to slow their momentum."

    Alternatively, if this would not amuse me, being teleported rips you out of reality and puts you back somewhere else, leaving your momentum behind. (Which, I dunno, causes a sudden gust of wind directly below where you were.) You'd probably gasp for air immeadiantly after teleporting, too, since the air in your lungs were left behind.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melamoto View Post
    This, simply because it relies on game logic and not physics.
    Didn't you see the part where he said not to quote him?

    But yeah, that's as good an explanation as any, and probably the one I'd go with.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    The assumed ruling would normally be that it doesn't, but there's no RAW. Preservation of momentum is just a nonstandard interpretation. But I would suggest that a DM should warn you of such a ruling in advance.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by quick_comment View Post
    Well, nobody says that we are on a rotating, orbiting planet in D&D.
    Indeed. Mostly because Spelljammer is Love, and in that setting celestial bodies just sort of hang (unless they're e.g. comets).
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    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jade_Tarem View Post
    DnD only models physics sporadically and accidentally, and the way the rules are worded allows for prodigious, physics-defying feats of ungodly power without ever touching a spell or going beyond first level.

    Don't believe me? It's fairly simple - here's one example of DnD momentum in action: You line up approximately 13,500 level 1 commoners, and all but the first two set a readied action to grapple the preceding commoner's grapple opponent away from them as soon as the preceding commoner grapples. Then the second commoner in line grapples the first one, and everyone's readied action goes off - each commoner will choose to fail every grapple check they make except the first one.

    The first commoner will be transferred to the end of the line in under six seconds - easily going ten times the speed of sound. It wouldn't be stretching the point to say that everyone involved might die of sonic or fire damage, except that they won't - there is absolutely no penalty of any sort for doing this, other than the part where you have to convince 13,500 commoners to participate and line them up.

    And that, kids, is how catgirls die. Don't bother trying to look for consistency and sense in your DnD physics, just take everyone else's excellent advice ask the DM what happens.
    Obviously, but that's just turn structure abuse. Was funny the first time.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    No momentum for teleport effects, says I. For portals, however - Speedy thing goes in, speedy thing comes out.
    :)
    Everyone knows that.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by rezplz View Post
    Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?
    Only if you want to either limit teleports to relatively short north / south hops...or spend a lot of time dealing with some fairly complex math to figure how fast you have to be moving to teleport from a pole to the equator. The general default is that it adjusts to your destination's frame of reference.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raum View Post
    The general default is that it adjusts to your destination's frame of reference.
    Of course, then you get the fun thought of 'What happens if the spell's frame of reference is moving, but you're not?'

    Say you're in Eberron, and some bright person puts up a portal at the front of that magic train thing. Someone gets in the way, the portal scoops them up 'to protect them', and deposits them in a nice, well decorated waiting room with a tray of tea and cookies nearby. Unfortunately due to a misunderstanding in refrerence frames, the 'out-portal' is stable, so everyone picked up by the 'in-portal' is ejected at the speed of the train... making a bit of a mess on the far wall.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Before I started my current campaign, I seriously considered designing a campaign world where the entire economy was based on teleportation circles. Most of the world's arcane magic-users were required to be members of an uber-powerful monopolistic guild that was working very hard to suppress the big uber-secret that their entire transportation network was shunting excess heat from changes in momentum/potential energy/etc. into the planet's interior.

    Since most of the raw materials on the planet were being transported from higher elevations to sea-level coastal cities, the excess heat was starting affect localized volcanic activity, increasing the planet's spin, and causing some other global warming type effects.

    The campaign was going to start with the PCs investigating an insignificant local sub-station burnout that blows up the local lord's outhouse or something like that. Once they accidentally discover the Big Secret, then almost every single arcane magic-user on the planet is told to KILL THEM ON SIGHT, disintegrations totally OK.

    To a certain extent, this was an attempt to provide a reasonably justifiable pretense for one of the common tropes in D&D: An endless series of random monsters suicidally attack the PCs for no apparent reason. The real reason: every wizard on the planet wants them dead, so they send every monster they can find after them.

    Eventually, the PCs would discover that the original designer of the teleport network had noticed the flaw, and created an artifact to fix it. It just needed a millennium or two to collect the necessary magical energy... and eventually, a group of heroes to fetch it from the Fortress of Immediate Death at the Top of the World.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono22 View Post
    No, because (don't quote me on this) teleport utilizes the astral plane.
    If you had a feat or something that let you stop relying on other planes when you teleport, then your speed would be maintained.
    My words exactly! And even so, It's not like you're falling into a portal. I think of it as more of the Star Trek transporter, no?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by nightwyrm View Post
    If you think about it, teleportation must not transfer momentum. Consider that you're standing on a spinning ball orbiting around a giant fireball which is also rotating about the galactic core which in turn is speeding away from every other galaxy in the universe. You actually have a lot of momentum that you're not aware of.
    Even if the campaign is set on a world with all that (if you think about it, the way many methods of planar travel drop you onto a "random point on a plane" takes on a very different meaning if you have stars and galaxies... though I suppose regular flat infinite plane would have the same problem) then only the first on matters since you'll "need" the same momentum in the place you're teleporting to, and even that only if it's a significant distance.





    Quote Originally Posted by Jade_Tarem View Post
    The first commoner will be transferred to the end of the line in under six seconds - easily going ten times the speed of sound. It wouldn't be stretching the point to say that everyone involved might die of sonic or fire damage, except that they won't - there is absolutely no penalty of any sort for doing this, other than the part where you have to convince 13,500 commoners to participate and line them up.
    That's where the DM comes in and says "no, you can't do that". Everyone always comes up with these elaborate, absurd plots and apparently fails to realize that there's a person running the game who can do stuff to prevent this.



    And to the original question, you need to ask that of your DM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexanderRM View Post
    That's where the DM comes in and says "no, you can't do that". Everyone always comes up with these elaborate, absurd plots and apparently fails to realize that there's a person running the game who can do stuff to prevent this.
    DMs vary, which is why you don't bring them to these discussions. Additionally, none of that stuff is meant to be used in game - just to see what the rules allow. That's why DM doesn't matter in this context, nor any of the others.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    For instance, two of my current DMs would likely allow absurdities exactly once, then banish them forever.

    Another would just laugh and say no.

    I'm extremely lenient with stuff, but if you use something, it can be used against you. Gentleman's Agreement is a handy tool.
    Last edited by sofawall; 2009-08-21 at 11:08 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by sofawall View Post
    I'm extremely lenient with stuff, but if you use something, it can be used against you. Gentleman's Agreement is a handy tool.
    The Gentleman's Agreement is the Geneva Convention of DnD.

    Me: I cast Holy Word!
    DM: Then I will cast Unholy Word...
    Me: Ok, maybe I'll just melee this round.

    And I'm sure when you hear "Save versus Disjunction" you have an instinct to immediately throw the PH at the DM.

    Teleportation could transfer momentum, but that is up to the DM. When you run full out 120 feet, it's not that you go 120 feet and then stop; you are running and at the end of 6 seconds you just got to 120 feet. Here's where the silly thing comes in: if I beat you by 1 on my initiative, I can run 120 feet, something that requires all off 6 seconds to preform, before you are able to make a 5 foot shift.

    How do we deal with these problems?

    Simple, we ignore them! I don't want to play a game where I have to worry about my character feeling depressed because of all the goblins he has killed or role play how I am going to wipe myself while still in Full Plate. I don't want to worry about little things like "Physics" when I cast a Fireball exactly 20 feet away from me and it nearly hits my nose. Sure, I should suffer some ill effects but it's magic! If everyone is having fun, then what does it matter?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    I say Rule of Cool.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    If teleport does conserve momentum, then you can trivially use it to make a death cannon.

    If teleport always puts you into rest with respect to some feature of where you are teleporting to, then you cant do very much thats interesting with it.

    So I would rule no, teleportation does not conserve momentum, or energy.

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