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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    The Witling by Vernor Vinge.

    This book covers a world where people can teleport and momentum is conserved. If you wish to play teleportation that way you should read the book.

    Stephen E

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    TheCountAlucard's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zergrusheddie View Post
    Me: I cast Holy Word!
    DM: Then I will cast Unholy Word...
    Me: Ok, maybe I'll just melee this round.
    I would sig this, but then you would sig this... okay, maybe I'll just melee this round.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    If you wanted to make things interesting, when casting a teleport spell while traveling uncontrollably (terminal velocity while falling, or being dragged along the ground, or being bound and gagged and strapped to a fast horse but happening to have the right metamagic) you could increase the possibility of being teleported to a different place or having a mishap.

    Greater teleport would still be fine.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    I would rule that it maintains the barest minimum of momentum. For example, in the new Star Trek movie
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    Sulu and Kirk are plummeting to their deaths and get beamed up at the last second before striking the ground. They slam into the transporter room floor, but not quickly enough to injure them.
    After all, it can't mess up with tiny amounts of momentum or it would stop the flow of your own blood and cause all sorts of problems.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysander View Post
    I would rule that it maintains the barest minimum of momentum. For example, in the new Star Trek movie
    Spoiler
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    Sulu and Kirk are plummeting to their deaths and get beamed up at the last second before striking the ground. They slam into the transporter room floor, but not quickly enough to injure them.
    After all, it can't mess up with tiny amounts of momentum or it would stop the flow of your own blood and cause all sorts of problems.
    It's magic.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Discworld teleportation conserves momentum, and it takes them a fair amount of time to figure out how to do it safely over long distances (they still don't get it quite right). I'd say skip the momentum conservation and just say "it's magic".
    Tali avatar by the talented Thormag.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zergrusheddie View Post
    The Gentleman's Agreement is the Geneva Convention of DnD.

    Me: I cast Holy Word!
    DM: Then I will cast Unholy Word...
    Me: Ok, maybe I'll just melee this round.
    I found no unholy word in the PH, but I did find words of chaos.

    The thing about abusing spells like Holy Word is that they're not that bad if you look closer or actually try to use them. For example I saw a webcomic using Holy Word abuse with a +4 level item (which takes a round of painful enemy attacks to use btw)... to get 5 levels above the BBEG and paralyze him. Meaning he'd have to already be 1 level above the baddy's HD. Except monster HD tends to be higher than their CR, and BBEG CR tends to be higher than player level. And constructs, dragons, elementals, oozes, plants and undead are immune to paralysis. Sheesh, almost anything that matters. So there's no way this could have actually worked.

    Holy Word is more of an AoE peon killing bomb. Half the time you could probably do the same with a tweaked out (but probably still lower level) fireball.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-08-23 at 02:00 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    I found no unholy word in the PH, but I did find words of chaos.

    The thing about abusing spells like Holy Word is that they're not that bad if you look closer or actually try to use them. For example I saw a webcomic using Holy Word abuse with a +4 level item... to get 5 levels above the BBEG and paralyze him. Meaning he'd have to already be 1 level above the baddy's HD. Except monster HD tends to be higher than their CR, and BBEG CR tends to be higher than player level. And constructs, dragons, elementals, oozes, plants and undead are immune to paralysis. Sheesh, almost anything that matters. So there's no way this could have actually worked.

    Holy Word is more of an AoE peon killing bomb. Half the time you could probably do the same with a lower level fireball.
    The problem as I understand it is that if you stack enough extra caster levels you can beat the BBEG without him even getting a saving throw.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Hence the +4 item which I already included. And there's an expensive but permanent +1 item you can get. After that you're stuck in core.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-08-23 at 01:59 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    Hence the +4 item which I already included. And there's an expensive but permanent +1 item you can get. After that you're stuck in core.
    Yes, I think it's only out of core that the trouble starts.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    Yes, I think it's only out of core that the trouble starts.
    Well if I am remembering the class correctly the hierophant class can give a boost to very focused builds though one looses out on higher level spells.

    Edit: Also the domains I think.
    Last edited by olentu; 2009-08-23 at 02:52 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Domain adds +1. Hierophant does not advance spellcasting, only caster level. Then a special ability option adds another +1 each level. So while your holy words are strong when you finally hit level 18, you don't have very many of them and you're way behind on casting. BAB also suffers. Given that HD usually progresses faster than CR and all the creature types that are immune to it, by the time you do finally hit level 18, it will rarely work anyway.

    Back on topic, I think momentum transfer is more likely to hurt the player than anything. Falling object cheese is doable (and bannable) w/ or w/o it. But cheese is often like this: if it's really bad then you're probably stretching the meaning of the rules a bit too far. Or even if the DM somehow believes it's still technically within the rules (yet incredibly crazy), that's usually only b/c he wants to ban it anyway. And I'm not gonna even begin to get into the 2-3+ book combo cheese. This is only referring to core and maybe some sensible non-core book abilities.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-08-23 at 03:13 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    The real issue with Holy Word-line (Blasphemy, Dictum, Word of Chaos are the other 3) is that it's either useless or broken. It's useless if you can't reach certain caster level (using whatever you have available of Ioun Stone, Hierophant, Beads of Karma, Book of Exalted Deeds and whatever out of core stuff works; Ankh of Ascension, Divine Spell Power, etc.) and broken if you can. It's rarely if ever useful in PCs' hands. I much prefer mook killers like Cloudkill since they fail to be busted even if you reach certain CL due to offering a save - they lack the broken potential.

    No Save Just Die is never a good thing, especially in games with creatures with power over and under their HD (killing a CR appropriate Pit Fiend with Holy Word (their HD is 2 under their CR) is easy, while killing a CR appropriate Red Dragon (their HD is much much higher than their CR) is hard).
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  14. - Top - End - #44
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Ah, so blasphemy is the "unholy word".

    And clerics don't get cloudkill. So really we're back to cleric spells being weaker than wizard spells, which is just fine and dandy IMO. Ya, holy word is a mook killer. In fact, the few creature types that aren't immune are mostly the less fantastic humanoids, beasts, etc. anyway. Even demons (you can go after the lesser ones). That doesn't mean it sucks without cheese. It just means you only prepare it when fighting mooks. I mean, that's kinda like saying a cheeseless magic missile sucks b/c it's a low damage no-save spell. Ya, if you just want to damage regular things it does. But everyone knows it has its particular uses.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-08-23 at 03:18 PM.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    "Momentum, a function of mass and velocity, is conserved between teleportations. In layman's terms, 'Speedy thing goes in, speedy thing comes out.'"

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    Ah, so blasphemy is the "unholy word".

    And clerics don't get cloudkill. So really we're back to cleric spells being weaker than wizard spells, which is just fine and dandy IMO. Ya, holy word is a mook killer. In fact, the few creature types that aren't immune are mostly the less fantastic humanoids, beasts, etc. anyway. Even demons (you can go after the lesser ones). That doesn't mean it sucks without cheese. It just means you only prepare it when fighting mooks. I mean, that's kinda like saying a cheeseless magic missile sucks b/c it's a low damage no-save spell. Ya, if you just want to damage regular things it does. But everyone knows it has its particular uses.
    ...you don't prepare 7th level spells for mook killing. Ever. They're used for doing something real. And about Clerics not getting Cloudkill; the point is that Cloudkill is a fair spell while these aren't. Cloudkill can never kill creatures of over 3 HD without a save, so heroic creatures are guaranteed a save. Just plain killing things without a save with a spell is not fair.

    If a Half-Fiend Ancient Black Dragon (CR 22 - level 20 PCs could handle two in a day) casts Blasphemy at level 20 PCs (without specific immunities, at any rate), it'll kill the whole party, no save (except for evil ones, obviously). That's principally what's wrong with the spell. If it was casting anything else, they'd get a save and would have a very solid chance of passing. Since he casts Blasphemy, they all just die. A fair printing of the line would include a save for ~all over 10 HD creatures no matter what. Even just core includes means to get 7 points over your level with CL.

    That allows you to paralyze, blind and deafen anything with 2 HD more than you. Sure, it won't work on high HD opponents, but at that point your DM just can't really send monsters with CR = HD at you simply because even if they're couple of levels higher than you, they'd still just get paralyzed, no save. If they have some buffs up to protect them, it's a simple matter for the party arcanist to act first and Dispel them (or hell, the Cleric to use Wand of Quicken on Greater Dispel Magic with his CL boosts to Dispel). Two spells, two actions, dead encounter. That just isn't right. Nothing should be "yeah, sure, your saves are all great, you have more AC than I can hit and more HP than I can deal as damage, but you died".
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2009-08-23 at 03:41 PM.
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: [3.5] Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    "Momentum, a function of mass and velocity, is conserved between teleportations. In layman's terms, 'Speedy thing goes in, speedy thing comes out.'"
    Well that would work for, say, Gate, but teleportation doesn't nessicarily have anything going in OR out. Just an object very abruptly being elsewhere.
    If asked the question "how can I do this within this system?" answering with "use a different system" is never a helpful or appreciated answer.

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