[3.5] Level 2 spells

[Thajocoth]

How many levels of a class do you need to cast level 2 spells in it?

I'm working on my first 3.5e character. I've only played 4e before.

Somebody was saying, when I was initially asking them questions, that with 1 level of Druid and a Wis of 20, I get 2 extra Level 1 slots and 1 extra slot each of levels 2, 3, 4 & 5, but can't access the level 2-5 slots yet at level 1. (Not even to fill them with level 1 spells.)

I'm starting at level 2 (after LA) with Wis & Cha both at 22.

How many levels of Cleric or Sorcerer do I need to access my 2nd level slots of either class? According to a chart I found, the number of bonus Level 2 slots I get from my ability scores is 2. The first level 2 slots given to me by the classes are at Cleric level 3 and Sorcerer level 4.

I've tried to look this up, but the answer seemed confusing:

The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

This sounds like the maximum level spells I can cast are restricted only by my ability scores or lack of available spell slots.

Sorcerers and bards cast arcane spells, but they do not have spellbooks and do not prepare their spells. A sorcerer’s or bard’s class level limits the number of spells he can cast (see these class descriptions). His high Charisma score might allow him to cast a few extra spells. A member of either class must have a Charisma score of at least 10 + a spell’s level to cast the spell.

Here I see what the ability score limit is and that I can get extra slots for having a high ability score (and found a handy chart for that.)

Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells shows the modifier for each score. It also shows bonus spells, which you’ll need to know about if your character is a spellcaster.

Confirmation of the previous and was followed immediately by the chart.

Divine spellcasters prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards do, but with a few differences. The relevant ability for divine spells is Wisdom. To prepare a divine spell, a character must have a Wisdom score of 10 + the spell’s level. Likewise, bonus spells are based on Wisdom.

Again, it's limiting based on my ability score, not my class levels.

[jseah]

Generally, casting level 2 spells as a cleric means you need to be Cleric 3. You look at the spells per day chart under the cleric class entry and anywhere there's a '-', you don't get spells of that level.

Note that some classes get 0 spells per day of a certain level (not '-' but '0'), this is intentional as characters with a high ability score will get bonus spells of that level and can use those slots.


There are ways to gain 2nd level spells at 1st level, the most easy one is taking Precocious Apprentice feat at Wizard 1 (gives you a 2nd level slot and a 2nd level spell known)

[Thajocoth]

Generally, casting level 2 spells as a cleric means you need to be Cleric 3. You look at the spells per day chart under the cleric class entry and anywhere there's a '-', you don't get spells of that level.

Note that some classes get 0 spells per day of a certain level (not '-' but '0'), this is intentional as characters with a high ability score will get bonus spells of that level and can use those slots.


There are ways to gain 2nd level spells at 1st level, the most easy one is taking Precocious Apprentice feat at Wizard 1 (gives you a 2nd level slot and a 2nd level spell known)

So the limit is: A dash on the chart restricts access to that level of magic including additional slots you would otherwise get from having a high ability score.

Thanks a lot! That was incredibly helpful!

EDIT: If anyone's curious... It's a secondary character I'm setting up in case the DM decides to not allow my primary one or if my primary one dies (Woodling Centuar Druid). This character would be a Pixie Cleric/Sorcerer until they can cast level 2 spells of each (the prerequisite for Mystic Theurge.) He's told me my centuar's 11hp and weight of 2,100lbs are both problematic numbers, but hasn't specifically said "no" yet.

[Elfin]

Have fun; 3.5 is a great game.

[Mongoose87]

A lot of people on here are going to tell you not to play a Mystic Theurge.

[ColdSepp]

I am just wondering how a Centuar can have 11 HP... they have 4 Racical HD, and it was stated the PC is at L2 after LA, which means Level 11 (4 Racial HD +2 Centuar LA + 3 Woodling LA) Thats 6d8+CON Modifier.

[Thajocoth]

I am just wondering how a Centuar can have 11 HP... they have 4 Racical HD, and it was stated the PC is at L2 after LA, which means Level 11 (4 Racial HD +2 Centuar LA + 3 Woodling LA) Thats 6d8+CON Modifier.

He's waving the "You must take your first levels as X" for anything we pick. Also, LA is apparently only applying to the difference between levels 1 & 2. I asked if it applies to how many levels must be gained between EACH level up, and he said "Hah, no, that would be ridiculous."

So I only have 1 level of Druid. No levels of Monstrous Humanoid. We're starting at level 6, which for me is level 1 after +5 LA.

Here's my full data that I've written down for my primary choice of character if you're curious:

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Wis 20, Cha 16, Int 12, Dex 18, Str 18, Con 16
(From a given array of DM's usual dice averages: 18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10)

AC 25 (Touch 14, Flatfooted 21), Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +7
HP: 11

Damage Reduction 5 / slashing
Vulnerability to Fire – +50% Fire damage
Immune to Poison, Magical Sleep, Paralysis, Polymorph, Stunning, & Mind-Affecting spells & spell-like abilities
Does not take extra damage from Critical Hits

Gear: Scimitar (30gp, 1d8, 8lbs, 10hp), Longbow (150gp, 2d6, 6lbs, 10hp), Arrows (20) (2gp, 6lbs), Large Heavy Wooden Shield (14gp, 20lbs, 30hp),

Studded Leather Armor (100gp, 40lbs)

To-hit, damage:
Scimitar: +3, 1d8+4 (Crits 18-20)
Longbow: +3, 2d6+4
Hooves: +3, 1d6+4
Bash: +3, 1d8+4

Full attack: Scimitar + 2 Hooves (-2 penalty to hit) + Slam (-2 penalty to hit)

1 Level Druid
Woodling Centuar

Feat: Multiattack

Languages: Sylvan, Elven, Common, Druidic

Skills:
Spot x4
Concentration x4
Handle Animal x4 [Has Wild Empathy]
Knowledge Nature x4 (+2)
Survival x4 (+2)
Hide x0 (-4 when not in natural above ground)
Move Silent x0 (+4 in natural above ground)
+4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed, overran, or tripped
Armor Check Penalty: 3 (Don't know what skills this applies to yet)

Lifting and carrying limits three times those of Medium bipedal characters. (0-300, 301-600, 601-900)

Usual Spells Prepared:
0 Light, Mending and Detect Poison
1 Produce Flame, Speak WIth Animals, Obscuring Mist & Entangle (uses Cha)

Animal companion: Wolf
Animal Companion Tricks: Heel, Guard, Defend, Attack (*2), Down and Stay

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As for my backup pixie, One of my Cleric domains is Healing.

Granted Power: You cast healing spells at +1 caster level.

This means as if my level ones were in a level 2 slot. I'm not getting to cast level 2 healing spells. Correct?

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A lot of people on here are going to tell you not to play a Mystic Theurge.

Why not? Neither class seems to be giving me more than new spells each level once I can cast level 2 spells in them. Mystic Theurge gives me the next row of both class's new spells instead of one. I see no downside. Well, except maybe a couple familiar related things...

[BobVosh]

Also the formula for it is fairly easy:

Prepared: Spell level * 2 -1. So for 2nd level spells: 2*2-1=level 3 can cast 2nd level spells. (like wizard)

Spontanteous: Spell level * 2. So for 2nd level spells: 2*2=4 (like sorcerer)

Only classes that aren't full casters break this. Paladin, ranger, duskblade, hexblade, etc.

*ps* I would also change out speak with animal and produce flame, but that is just me.

This means as if my level ones were in a level 2 slot. I'm not getting to cast level 2 healing spells. Correct?

No it means you cast it at one higher caster level. Such as cure light wounds heals 1D8+caster level, to a max of 5. Since you are a 1st level cleric you will heal 1D8+1 normally. With that power you heal 1D8+2.

Why not? Neither class seems to be giving me more than new spells each level once I can cast level 2 spells in them. Mystic Theurge gives me the next row of both class's new spells instead of one. I see no downside. Well, except maybe a couple familiar related things...

You will be even further behind on caster levels. You have the casting of a level 1 druid currently. You will need to have level 3 casting in druid, and level 3 in wizard to go into mystic theurge. So with your 5 ecl that is level 11. To do what 2 level 3s can do. Also you will lose animal companion and wildshape. Arcane heirophant from races of wild is a much better Wizard/druid combo.

However since you don't know the rules well I would suggest all one class. Otherwise you can easily get confused, or just not know what to do.

[ColdSepp]

Ah, No Racial Hit Dice. That explains it. But... 11HP at L6 is going to hurt. Bad. That's one hit, literally.

[tyckspoon]

As for my backup pixie, One of my Cleric domains is Healing.

This means as if my level ones were in a level 2 slot. I'm not getting to cast level 2 healing spells. Correct?

Ah.. yeah, you're gonna need that backup. Only 1 real class level at ECL 6 is pretty near doomed. And no, you're not casting level 2 healing spells; you're casting level 1 spells at Caster Level 2 (the distinction between a spell level and your caster level is something that is very important for you to become familiar with if you are going to play casters.) It means you cast Healing spells with greater effect- for example, Cure Light Wounds heals 1d8 + (caster level) HP. Normally (caster level) is the number of levels you have in the class that granted you the spell. The Healing Domain grants +1 caster level for Healing spells, so for you the spell instead heals 1d8 + (caster level+1) HP.

Edit: Re: Mystic Theurge: The two major reasons are action economy and slowed spell-level progression. The action economy problem is that while you have many more spells prepared, you can still only effectively cast one per turn. Thus you are at best no more effective than a straight-classed caster. The spell-level problem is a facet of the fact that each new level of spells is not a simple +1 progression of power; a new level of spells can be anywhere from twice to about four times as good as the last level. Going Theurge slows your progression in two classes at once (for example, Cleric/Sorcerer entry requires 3 Cleric/4 Sorcerer. That gets you 2nd level spells in both; if you had stayed just Cleric, you'd be working with 4th level magic. That's the difference between Cure Critical and Cure Moderate, or being able to actually cure poison with Neutralize Poison versus just treat it with Delay Poison.)

[Thajocoth]

duskblade, hexblade

These are not in the list. My base class choices are limited to: Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard

*ps* I would also change out speak with animal and produce flame, but that is just me.

The DM recommended Speak with Animals, but I'll be running the list by the rest of the party before I finalize it. (And I can always change it, being a Druid.) I'll mention that particular suggestion to them.

[Gerbah]

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As for my backup pixie, One of my Cleric domains is Healing.

This means as if my level ones were in a level 2 slot. I'm not getting to cast level 2 healing spells. Correct?

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Ah, the +1 Caster Level means that, well, as an example I'll use a healing spell. Casting Cure Light Wounds (a 1st level spell), while at Cleric level 1, would give you a caster level of 1. The spell would heal 1d8 + 1 HP. With THAT ability, the spell still takes up the same slot, however it is now Caster Level 2, meaning it heals 1d8 + 2 HP (+1 per caster level, up to 5 I think). You might have already known this, but I figure an example couldn't hurt.

Oh, and most folks tend to not like the Mystic Theurge simply because you won't be able to cast as powerful magics as a full-blooded Cleric or Wizard. You basically work like a Cleric and a Wizard who are both three levels behind the rest of the party. Don't let that stop you though, any class can be very fun, besides a Mystic Theurge will almost NEVER run out of spell slots. A handy feat to take is one called Alternative Spell Source, which lets you prepare Cleric spells in your Wizard slots and vice-versa. Pritty nifty.

Edit: Darn you Tykspoon, or whoever posted basically the same friggin' example.

[Thajocoth]

Ah.. yeah, you're gonna need that backup. Only 1 real class level at ECL 6 is pretty near doomed. And no, you're not casting level 2 healing spells; you're casting level 1 spells at Caster Level 2 (the distinction between a spell level and your caster level is something that is very important for you to become familiar with if you are going to play casters.) It means you cast Healing spells with greater effect- for example, Cure Light Wounds heals 1d8 + (caster level) HP. Normally (caster level) is the number of levels you have in the class that granted you the spell. The Healing Domain grants +1 caster level for Healing spells, so for you the spell instead heals 1d8 + (caster level+1) HP.

That's what I thought. I was verifying. Thanks a lot. The backup pixie character also has a level of Sorcerer (with damaging spells and a familiar I haven't chosen yet) and the fact that they're flying and invisible to back them up. They have 12hp (Maximized Cleric level + Maximized Sorcerer level). I haven't chosen their familiar though... I might go with toad for the 3hp, but a pixie (flying) with a toad (not-flying) might be kinda weird...

[Milskidasith]

Why are the cleric and sorc levels maximized? You only maximize the first level, usually. Just checking in case your DM asks.

[deuxhero]

One of my Cleric domains is Healing.

Ackbar picture, stat!

Anyways, just so you know, in 3.5 healing in combat (with the possible except of the "heal" spell) is not very effective. You are better off buying a wand of cure light wounds (or lesser vigor if you have acess) or 2 and using them to heal to full outside of combat.

A cleric works much better when they destroy or disable the threat (use spells like hold person that require a save by the foe or they become useless) first, instead of wasting a turn healing for what will likely be less than the next hit by the threat. The only time I would advise healing in combat is when someone is in the negatives, so they can flee and finish off disable foes for you.

[Thajocoth]

Oh, and most folks tend to not like the Mystic Theurge simply because you won't be able to cast as powerful magics as a full-blooded Cleric or Wizard. You basically work like a Cleric and a Wizard who are both three levels behind the rest of the party.

Why would they be behind? Each level of Mystique Theurge seems to grant everything both the other classes are giving combined (spellwise), like taking a level in each of them.

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Why are the cleric and sorc levels maximized? You only maximize the first level, usually. Just checking in case your DM asks.

He said he was "tired of all his Bards having higher hp than his Barbarians". So he maximizes all permanently gained numbers (such as hit dice). I know that's probably exploitable somewhere, but I'm not the type... I just want to play something that's weird. I figure a Centuar with leaves for hair and bark for skin is weird enough. I was originally going to add an ooze template to something instead, but the only one in the list dissolves all metal and wooden weapons that hit me, which sounds like it'd just be annoying for the DM. (I prefer we all have fun.)

[Milskidasith]

Why would they be behind? Each level of Mystique Theurge seems to grant everything both the other classes are giving combined (spellwise), like taking a level in each of them.

They'd be behind because you need three levels in pure wizard and three levels in pure cleric... so at MT 1, you are casting as a cleric3/MT1 = cleric 4 and a Wizard3/MT1 = Wizard 4, at character level Cleric3/Wizard3/MT1 = 7.

Might I suggest, politely, not playing a caster on your first time? From what I've seen so far, you are having a hard time understanding the numbers involved in casting and, quite frankly, it's going to be a problem for you and your teammates if you don't know what spells you can and cannot cast.

[ColdSepp]

Why would they be behind? Each level of Mystique Theurge seems to grant everything both the other classes are giving combined (spellwise), like taking a level in each of them.

Because you need three level of a divine caster and 3 levels of an arcana caster to get in. You have a lot of spells, but those spells are of lower level then a straight caster.

[Thajocoth]

Oh, right, the initial 3 levels. I thought you meant it was something to do with the Mystic Theurge levels.

It doesn't look like that'd really matter much though. The sheer quantity of spells I'll have... I'd be a lot more flexible. (And I'm not trying to min/max anyway.)

As for not playing a caster, nothing that I could use for a decent Fighter or Barbarian was weird enough for me. Those were the classes I was initially leaning towards. And I haven't had trouble with any numbers. I've only needed a few clarifications on things, each of which only really needed a sentence or two.

[ColdSepp]

Oh, right, the initial 3 levels. I thought you meant it was something to do with the Mystic Theurge levels.

It doesn't look like that'd really matter much though. The sheer quantity of spells I'll have... I'd be a lot more flexible. (And I'm not trying to min/max anyway.)
.

That's the other issue. Quantity doesn't matter much, since you can only cast 1 spell a round. Quality does matter, and a straight caster has a lot more of it. Plus, at this level, odds of you running low on spells is slim. (Well, normally. Your LA changes that, but with LA, by the time you get into MT at level 11, a straight caster has 6th level spells)

[tyckspoon]

Centaurs make a pretty decent base for a melee build, although you would really desperately need to drop the Woodling part to make it work; you can almost make it using spells with that much LA if you pick carefully, but direct combat characters live or very rapidly die by their real levels.

[Thajocoth]

LA +4, 3 levels Cleric, 4 levels Sorcerer, it'll be level 12 when I take MT 1. That is, if this character is even necessary. My first choice is still the Woodling Centuar Druid. I'm not trying to make an optimized character... I'm just trying to make something fun to play.

Centaurs make a pretty decent base for a melee build, although you would really desperately need to drop the Woodling part to make it work; you can almost make it using spells with that much LA if you pick carefully, but direct combat characters live or very rapidly die by their real levels.

Yeah, I almost picked Fighter instead... But having a Druid who's also a plantlike Centuar felt better RP-wise than a Fighter who was one. And dropping Woodling would just be too mundane. At least the pixie can fly...

[Typewriter]

Mystic Theurge is a fun thing to play, even if you cant spend all your spells in combat. I always use my heals in poor districts and local hospitals along with any other potential help cities may need, and use arcane spells in combat.

If your group plays the kind of D&D where a CR appropriate monster is an effective challenge to you having things like MT won't be a hindrance(it won't be a huge help or anything) but if you play like a lot of people on this forum seem to where you're going to be fighitng CR 20 monsters at level 12 taking an underpowered class(which MT technically is) is going to hurt.

That being said, it sounds like your group plays more traditionally, so ignore haters who are going to throw tons of math, and explanations of how much you can do per round at you as if you didn't know, and play what you want.

And 11 HP is not enough for a level 6 character....that's going to be a fast death...

[Thajocoth]

And 11 HP is not enough for a level 6 character....that's going to be a fast death...

Yeah... I can't really play something below 4 LA. Too mundane.

When I initially chose Pixie as my alternate choice, I was going to make a Pixie Fighter, selecting a weapon compatible with the Weapon Finesse they automatically get to use my Dex to hit (since they get -4 to str). I gave up on that. In that case I'd've had 20+con mod+con mod HP though...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Mystic Theurge is a fun thing to play, even if you cant spend all your spells in combat. I always use my heals in poor districts and local hospitals along with any other potential help cities may need, and use arcane spells in combat.

If your group plays the kind of D&D where a CR appropriate monster is an effective challenge to you having things like MT won't be a hindrance(it won't be a huge help or anything) but if you play like a lot of people on this forum seem to where you're going to be fighitng CR 20 monsters at level 12 taking an underpowered class(which MT technically is) is going to hurt.

That being said, it sounds like your group plays more traditionally, so ignore haters who are going to throw tons of math, and explanations of how much you can do per round at you as if you didn't know, and play what you want.

And 11 HP is not enough for a level 6 character....that's going to be a fast death...

It's not just the MT, MT is rough but doable. It's MT+LA. Either on it's own makes it more work to be competent, both is nigh-impossible to overcome, especially with a new player.

@the OP: 3.5 is far less balanced than 4.0. It's entirely possible to render your character useless with a couple bad decisions that really shouldn't have that effect. What's your party playing, and how experienced are they at 3.5? And what character concept are you going for, there's probably an easier way to represent it?

[Tempest Fennac]

Just out of curiosity, how are Woodlings different to normal Centaurs? Have you considered asking the DM to let you use a weaker Centaur which doesn't have Level Adjustment? That would help a lot due to giving you more HPs and class levels.

[ColdSepp]

Just out of curiosity, how are Woodlings different to normal Centaurs? Have you considered asking the DM to let you use a weaker Centaur which doesn't have Level Adjustment? That would help a lot fue to giving you more HPs and class levels.

Woodling is a Template from the MM3.

[tyckspoon]

When I initially chose Pixie as my alternate choice, I was going to make a Pixie Fighter, selecting a weapon compatible with the Weapon Finesse they automatically get to use my Dex to hit (since they get -4 to str). I gave up on that. In that case I'd've had 20+con mod+con mod HP though...

I admire your willingness to engage in exercises of futility.

[sofawall]

Surreal on Gleemax made a Pixie Hulking Hurler. It did some serious damage.

[ColdSepp]

Yeah... I can't really play something below 4 LA. Too mundane.

When I initially chose Pixie as my alternate choice, I was going to make a Pixie Fighter, selecting a weapon compatible with the Weapon Finesse they automatically get to use my Dex to hit (since they get -4 to str). I gave up on that. In that case I'd've had 20+con mod+con mod HP though...

It's only Dex to hit, not damage.... add in the size penalties and... Ouch. Just not possible.