4E Save Optimization

[cupkeyk]

Hi guys,

I made a orb of Imposition Wizard for our 4e game. I wanted to abuse Enlarge spell but other than Ice Storm, it looks like there isn't any other level 9 spells that deal damage AND has a status effect. Is there one in a source that I overlooked. I am posting the whole thing so that people can criticize the other aspects as well:

Nirwe, level 8
Deva, Wizard
Build: Control Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Orb of Imposition
Background: Vilhon Wilds

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 08, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 22, Wis 16, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 08, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 12.

AC: 22 Fort: 15 Reflex: 20 Will: 19
HP: 54 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 13

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +15, Dungeoneering +12, Nature +12, Religion +17

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Athletics +3, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Endurance +5,
Heal +7, History +12, Insight +7, Intimidate +7, Perception +7,
Stealth +4, Streetwise +5, Thievery +4

FEATS
Wizard: Ritual Casting
Level 1: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 2: Enlarge Spell
Level 4: Focused Expertise (Staff)
Level 6: White Lotus Hindrance
Level 8: Battle Intuition.

POWERS
Wizard at-will 1: Scorching Burst
Wizard at-will 1: Thunderwave
Wizard encounter 1: Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation
Wizard daily 1: Horrid Whispers / Phantom Chasm
Wizard utility 2: Jump / Shield
Wizard encounter 3: Colorspray
Wizard daily 5: Glitterdust / Grasp of the Grave
Wizard utility 6: Emerald Eye / Wizard's Escape
Wizard encounter 7: Twists of Space
Wizard daily 9: Ice Storm / Face of Death

Equipment:
Cunning Staff +2, Orb of Ultimate Imposition +2, Goggles of the bone collector, salve of power, leather armor, standard adventurer's kit.

PEACH!

PEACH!

[RTGoodman]

Looks pretty good to me. The only thing is that I usually prefer a starting stat array 16, 14, 14, 13, 10, 8. For you, at level 8, that'd end up with:

Str 8
Con 14
Dex 10
Int 20
Wis 18
Cha 13

Now, that gives you -1 to attacks and damage, BUT gives you a lot better use of Orb of Imposition (since opponents now take a -4 penalty on saves when you use your implement power), and you get a few more HP. Dropping Dex doesn't hurt (especially since you're already using Wis for Initiative, right?), and the 13 Cha qualifies you for Spell Focus once you hit Paragon levels.

As for your Level 9 Daily Spells, well, there aren't that many so far (10), and most of them seem to be either summoning/conjuration spells or have no damage and just an effect. Personally, I don't know about icy terrain - a little damage over a big area is okay for minion-killing, but why waste a daily on that? And the effect (slow) is only okay, and you can already get it with lower-level powers, I believe. I think faces of death (AP) is a good one - it's a burst that, while it doesn't deal damage, makes targets HELPLESS (save ends) on the first failed save. It's based good all around for locking down enemies. For your spellbook power, wall of fire certainly has its merits, even if it's not exactly what you were looking for.

[Kelpstrand]

Spell would be Face of Death from Complete Arcane.

Burst 1 vs Will, like sleep with a pre effect, saves ends immobilized, but if the fail the save, they are helpless (save ends), and if they make the save on the first round or against the second effect, they are save ends slowed.

On a miss, they are save ends immobilized, and after they make the save, they are save ends slowed. Possible outcomes are:

1) Miss on attack roll: Immobilized (Save ends).
After they make the save: Slowed (Save ends).

2) Hit on the attack roll, they make their first save:
First Round: Immobilized (They make this save).
Second Round: Slowed (save ends)

3) Hit on the attack roll, fail first saving throw:
First Round: Immobilized (they fail this saving throw)
Second Round: Helpless (Save ends)
After they make that saving throw: Slowed (save ends)

You should of course stack up on spell focus and Phrenic Crown and dual wielding cunning longswords as soon as possible.

[dragoonsgone]

Faces of Death doesn't do any damage so its useless for Enlarge Spell.

I would go Visions of Ruin (arcane power) or Wall of Fire(players handbook). Wall of Fire is a great area denial spell. Visions of ruin does some damage and you can't leave the area until you save which means you could throw another AOE right on it.

Edit: Unless I am missing something, I would drop the staff. Change Staff expertise to orb expertise and get some magic leather armor instead of 2 magic weapons.

[Kelpstrand]

Faces of Death doesn't do any damage so its useless for Enlarge Spell.

I'm sorry, I did not mean to imply that it could be used with Enlarge spell, merely that it is the best possible level 9 spell for an Orbizard, and should be considered heavily before choosing another.

[Aron Times]

I would get Wall of Fire. It blocks line of sight, which means you can divide the enemy force in half, temporarily reducing the effective encounter level of the fight. It can also be used for retreats, as it takes three extra squares of movement to get past a Wall of Fire in addition to the fire damage they take for doing so.

Note that you don't have to have a save ends spell at each level if you're an orb wizard. Overspecialization isn't rewarded much in 4E, so it's better to have the right balance of powers for different situations.

[Kelpstrand]

I would get Wall of Fire. It blocks line of sight, which means you can divide the enemy force in half, temporarily reducing the effective encounter level of the fight. It can also be used for retreats, as it takes three extra squares of movement to get past a Wall of Fire in addition to the fire damage they take for doing so.

Note that you don't have to have a save ends spell at each level if you're an orb wizard. Overspecialization isn't rewarded much in 4E, so it's better to have the right balance of powers for different situations.

Yeah, but level 1 and level 9 are the best levels for save ends awesome.

Also, he does get two spells of each level, so he can figure out which one is more useful most of the time.

Wall of Fire... Does not reduce encounter level. It does a very small amount of damage as they move action through it. It might prevent a single round of attacks from monsters on the other side.

[Sinfire Titan]

Yeah, but level 1 and level 9 are the best levels for save ends awesome.

Also, he does get two spells of each level, so he can figure out which one is more useful most of the time.

Wall of Fire... Does not reduce encounter level. It does a very small amount of damage as they move action through it. It might prevent a single round of attacks from monsters on the other side.

Wall of Fire sets up for Pinball Wizard tricks. But I agree with you; Save Ends effects are the best type of spells for an Orb Wizard to have, doubly so if the original Adventurer's Vault is allowed. Pinball Wizard works best if you are Spellscared, as one of their powers can Slide a target 20 spaces every round (sustain minor).

[Aron Times]

Wall of Fire creates a wall 8; a 40-ft. wall of fire that blocks line of sight. If you're fighting in a huge open field, then 40-ft. is not going to divide the battlefield. But if you're in a dungeon, you can easily double the thickness of the wall by reducing it to 20-ft.

Yes, your enemies can always risk getting through the 10-ft. thick wall of fire, but it takes at least two move actions to do so, and you can always push them back into the flames; most classes have forced movement powers, some of them at-will.

[Kelpstrand]

But if you're in a dungeon, you can easily double the thickness of the wall by reducing it to 20-ft.

Fair enough. I don't think such instances are all that common, but I've never been in a position where I had it as an option, so I wasn't looking. But yes, doubling up, that is a useful blocker, becoming 2-4 rounds of action negating, and more damage.

[cupkeyk]

I was wondering about visions of Ruin myself, is that a valid target for Enlarge Spell?

[Kurald Galain]

Looks like a solid build.

For level 9, Vision of Ruin is a good pick (and probably enlargeable since it does have a damage effect, although YMMV). Wall of Fire is not enlargeable, but very very good.

For level 5, note that an enlarged Stinking Cloud is a great area denial spell.

I'd suggest getting rid of the Staff feat, though. And I would strongly recommend against dropping your intelligence - getting -1 to hit for every single attack is a pretty bad trade to giving an additional -1 to enemy saving throws. There are plenty of other ways to penalize saves if you want (phrenic crown, spider familiar, etc).

[Kelpstrand]

I'd suggest getting rid of the Staff feat, though. And I would strongly recommend against dropping your intelligence - getting -1 to hit for every single attack is a pretty bad trade to giving an additional -1 to enemy saving throws. There are plenty of other ways to penalize saves if you want (phrenic crown, spider familiar, etc).

Indeed, at this point there is so much to penalize saves, a Gnome Wizard focusing on Charisma with an 10 Wisdom and no Orb is probably the second best Orbizard after the Deva. You can get a -8 or 9 to all saving throws against your spells early Paragon Tier without even using Orb.

[dragoonsgone]

For level 9, Vision of Ruin is a good pick (and probably enlargeable since it does have a damage effect, although YMMV). Wall of Fire is not enlargeable, but very very good.

Ah sorry I didn't read enlarge close enough, the attack part. Thanks, I doubt I would have ever caught that.

Trying to think of an alternate feat for staff. Coordinated Explosion looks decent.

[cupkeyk]

On a different note,

would a half elf bard spending three feats, his background and a 6th level utility power, for save optimization be wasting resources?

That's the Crusading Zealot Background, Human Perseverance, Stubborn Survivor and Couragous Example plus Ode to Sacrifice.

[Kurald Galain]

would a half elf bard spending three feats, his background and a 6th level utility power, for save optimization be wasting resources?

I would say that is overdoing it, yes. For instance, that background isn't all that impressive, and I would pick Survivor over Perseverance, but not both.

[HMS Invincible]

The spider familiar only affects slow/immobilize, not worth it IMO.
What about lvl 10 choices? I was very conflicted but I settled on blur and Illusionary wall.
Why not grasping shadows for lvl 1 encounter? It works better with enlarge feat.
Focused expertise isn't needed, since it improves your attack rolls with a weapon. Something that you'll never ever do, implement expertise works just fine.

Can someone explain more about the spellscar and pinball wizard interaction?

[Kurald Galain]

The spider familiar only affects slow/immobilize, not worth it IMO.

It works on Sleep, which is arguably the best wizard spell in the book.

What about lvl 10 choices? I was very conflicted but I settled on blur and Illusionary wall.

Blur is unimpressive. Illusionary wall is very good, as is Mass Resistance.

Why not grasping shadows for lvl 1 encounter? It works better with enlarge feat.

That's one of the best level-1 encounter spells, yes.

Can someone explain more about the spellscar and pinball wizard interaction?

There are some nasty spellscarred powers that move things around, the first one being Call of the Plague (burst pull effect followed by a burst push effect) and a high-level power that slides 15 per turn (save ends) on a hit, and 10 once on a miss.

[cupkeyk]

I didn't post my level 10 options because I am only level 9. LOLz. i don't think that far ahead. hahahah. Uhhh how long has it been since the Bard preview? It took my Bard since that time 'til last week to get from level 4 to level 9, only to get killed. Previous to that i played a wizard that lasted since the release of 4e until the Bard preview to die. So planning ahead is like investing emotions on a relationship that may never happen.

i chose Orbmaster's Incendiary explosion because it gives the option to affect only enemies. the Party is a melee avenger, a melee (duh) fighter and a melee artificer. I chose the power so i can have an option to include my allies in the burst if necessary.