[3.5e] Optimizing Iconics

[Eldariel]

Just a fun, relatively pointless build crunching, everyone knows the iconic characters in PHB. Tordek the Dwarven Axeman, Lidda the Halfling Thief, Mialee the Mutant Frog Princess, Jozan the Heretic of Pelor, Vanadia the Overpowered, Gimble the Scourge of All That Is Pure, Nebin the Scourge of All That Is Sane, Krusk the Pimp, Devis the...Elvis(h)?, Ember the Crybaby, Regdar the Wannabe Ranger, Soveliss the Wannabe Fighter, Hennet the Wannabe Wizard and Alhandra of the Stick (up the arse), you know the bunch.

It's no secret that WoTC employees isn't really the greatest at using their own rules, so the iconics suffer of chronic lack of build thought. Even worse, they have absolutely no implementation of out-of-core abilities or prestige classes no matter how appropriate. So, I propose we rebuild the iconics to match their abilities with their status!

Disclaimer: This was tried here but some characters never got done.


First, it obviously takes listing the characters and what they should do:

Tordek: Male Dwarf Warrior with a Dwarven War Axe and a Shield. Heavy armor.

Regnar: Male Human Warrior with a Greatsword and some archery skills. Heavy armor.

Soveliss: Male (??) Elf Wildsman dual wielder who is also an archer. Light armor.

Jozan: Male Human Priest of Pelor. Heavy armor.

Krusk: Male Half-Orc Warrior with a Greataxe and a bow and a really pimpy dress. Lighter armor. Manly.

Lidda: Female Halfling...thief. Dumb. Blasts herself with magic devices. Daggers. Screw armor.

Vanadia: Female Half-Elf Druid with a canine companion. Scimitar. Leather.

Ember: Female Human Monk Quarterstaff, apparently.

Alhandra: Female Human Divine Champion of Whatever, Longsword & Shield, heavy armor. Holy Avenger (later in her career)! Heavy Male Warhorse.

Hennet: Human Sorcerer. Knows a lot of defensive spells with the odd magic missile thrown in. Male bat familiar.

Mialee: Female Mutant Elf Wizard, looks silly and seems to do quite a bit of conjuration, transmutation, evocation and enchantment. Male raven familiar.

Nebin: Male Gnome Illusionist, probably banned Necromancy & Enchantment, Rat familiar...excitable, prone to freeze in combat. Yeah, Gnome.

Gimble: Male Gnome Bard. That is all. More weapons than you can shove a stick at. More into Illusion-magic and such. 'cause he's a friggin' Gnome.

Devis: Male Half-Elf Bard. Longsword and Crossbow or something. Silly. Probably some stupid diplomancer or something.


So, umm, pick one and toss together a build, if you feel so inclined! Uhm, 32pb. Feel free to express yourself.

[KillianHawkeye]

This is an interesting idea, but I'm just wondering how you know the genders of the characters' mounts and familiars (or why it's important)??

EDIT: Also, what about the iconics from other books, like Morthos the human warlock?

[Eldariel]

This is an interesting idea, but I'm just wondering how you know the genders of the characters' mounts and familiars??

It's an important detail; of course I have to keep myself updated! ...Actually, I dug up their stats from various WoTC product previews with a Google-search. Yeah, all the companions are listed as males.

Oh, and umm, actually the familiars/etc aren't that important a part of the process so if you want a different one or to get rid of it entirely, be my guest!


EDIT: Others are a fair game, but as I'm not aware of them, I can't list them. And I'm NOT listing all the prestige class representatives. I have a life.

[RTGoodman]

This is an interesting idea, but I'm just wondering how you know the genders of the characters' mounts and familiars (or why it's important)??

I think it's probably all listed out in the 3.0 Enemies & Allies book. It has stats for the Iconics at 1st, 5th, 10th, and 15th level, I believe.

I'd definitely be into this, assuming you're talking about taking the IDEA of each iconic and building arouind it. Could Tordek, for instance, but a Warblade that goes into that Dwarven Defender-type Martial PrC from ToB? Or something like that?

[Eldariel]

I'd definitely be into this, assuming you're talking about taking the IDEA of each iconic and building arouind it. Could Tordek, for instance, but a Warblade that goes into that Dwarven Defender-type Martial PrC from ToB? Or something like that?

That's the idea. Mialee could be a friggin' Warmage if you feel that serves this the best (hint: it doesn't and this is a really lousy example). But yeah, point being, idea (and preferably equipment) the same, builds, feats, skills, etc. are a fair game to play around with. Which of course makes Tordek and Alhandra bitches to work with 'cause they're sword&board.

[Frosty]

Mailee's CHA makes her not suit *anything* that requires force-of-personality based casting. And any Sword-and-Boarder requires ToB levels. Insightful Strike and Greater Insightful Strike is the great damage equalizer.

[HCL]

Nebin and Gimble are indubitably the strongest of those characters.

[Frosty]

Only if Gimble is a Dragonfire Inspiration Bard or unless he PrCs out into Sublime Chord.

[woodenbandman]

Hoo boy. Let's do Soveliss:

Soveliss: Warblade 20.

Maneuvers essential: Adamantine Hurricane, Raging Mongoose, Time Stands Still

Feats Essential: TWF line, Shadow Blade, Stormguard Warrior.

Basic TWF warblade that can also be an archer with TSS bow attacks.

You know what? Copy/paste warblade 20 about 4 times.

[ColdSepp]

Are their stats listed anywhere, or do we take point buy and make them ourselves?

[Eloel]

Fighter 2/Warblade 18 >>> Warblade 20.
New stances are all 1 level higher than what they are in Warblade20. Getting a stance at L4 & L8? Are you joking?

[Frosty]

Fighter 2/Warblade 18 >>> Warblade 20.
New stances are all 1 level higher than what they are in Warblade20. Getting a stance at L4 & L8? Are you joking?

No, because you want the Capstone. Two stances at once? Hell yes.

[Myou]

Looking at one of the existing builds I don't see what the fuss is all about.

It's really only right and proper for a half-elf, half-abomination wizard like Mialee to have more Dex than Int and more Wis than Con, especially with Toughness to negate the low HP.

And she certainly can't afford to dump Str. Not if she wants that longsword to come in handy after she's spent all those overpowered Evocation spells.

[Mushroom Ninja]

existing builds

I wonder if the good folks over at WotC ever did learn to play their own game? SF(evocation) and Toughness? I wonder what feat they were planning for next? Probably endourance.

[Eldariel]

Hoo boy. Let's do Soveliss:

Soveliss: Warblade 20.

Maneuvers essential: Adamantine Hurricane, Raging Mongoose, Time Stands Still

Feats Essential: TWF line, Shadow Blade, Stormguard Warrior.

Basic TWF warblade that can also be an archer with TSS bow attacks.

You know what? Copy/paste warblade 20 about 4 times.

Hm, Ranger 2 seems like a good bet for skills. Otherwise, yeah, sounds pretty much exactly like it. Dual Stance is nice, but I think the Archery-part is going to be undoable without Rapid Shot.

Oh, and let's make him Wood Elf. Those Str+Dex boosts will come in handy to qualify for TWF and go Str-based. Hell, toss two levels of Bloodclaw Master in there to get full Str in the offhand attacks. Would free up some feats and the need for a Shadowhand Stance.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Dual Stance is nice, but I think the Archery-part is going to be undoable without Rapid Shot.

Raging mongoose gives archers extra attacks too, doesn't it?

[Eldariel]

Raging mongoose gives archers extra attacks too, doesn't it?

Indeed. Rapid Shot level 2, Dancing Mongoose at 10, Raging Mongoose 16 though. But yeah, ultimately you'll want Rapid Shot Raging Mongoose Time Stands Still on level 18 (or 17 in the original build sans Rapid Shot) for 16 arrows.

[Ernir]

Gimble the Gnome Illusion-Bard?

Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 2/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Fatespinner 3

Feats:
Spell Focus: Illusion [Level 1]
Greater Spell Focus: Illusion [Level 3]
Melodic Casting [Level 6]
Captivating Melody [Lyric Thaumaturge 2]
Misleading Song [Level 9]
Heighten Spell [Level 12]
Rapid Metamagic [Level 15]
Quicken Spell [Level 18]


Instead of Inspiring Courage, he burns through his bardic music to enhance his spellcasting. 9th level spells and lots of illusion-action, but he still plays music every round.
I also avoided the full ScM cheese.

Give me a point buy and I'll give you a sheet!



EDIT: I think I'll make Devis a proper Inspire Courage-er.

[Eldariel]

Ah, fine, Point Buy 32.

[Morty]

I think I'd give Soveliss some more Ranger levels. In fact, if Ranger is deemed too unoptimized - though I really don't see why it should be if we use Spell Compendium - I'd use some homebrewed Ranger rather than Warblade if homebrew material is allowed.

[Eldariel]

I think I'd give Soveliss some more Ranger levels. In fact, if Ranger is deemed too unoptimized - though I really don't see why it should be if we use Spell Compendium - I'd use some homebrewed Ranger rather than Warblade if homebrew material is allowed.

Let's keep Homebrew out of it...it gets too easy that way.

[Morty]

Let's keep Homebrew out of it...it gets too easy that way.

I guess you're right. Still, I don't think Warblade is a perfect replacement for a Ranger. A few levels to get TWF-boosting manuevers, perhaps. And Ranger with Spell Compendium and various other splatbooks isn't that underpowered.

[PId6]

Let's try my hand at the mutant frog.

Gray Elf Generalist 6/Loremaster 10/Archmage 4

Base Abilities:

Str: 8
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 20
Wis: 10
Cha: 4 (Technically not allowed, but I think she deserves special dispensation.)

Level 20 Abilities:

Str: 8
Dex: 18
Con: 12 (18)
Int: 30 (36)
Wis: 10
Cha: 4

Feats:

1: Skill Focus (Knowledge: Arcana)
3: Quicken Spell
5: Split Ray
6: Chain Spell
9: Spell Focus (Transmutation)
12: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
15: Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
18: Arcane Mastery

[Eldariel]

Let's try my hand at the mutant frog.

Gray Elf Generalist 6/Loremaster 10/Archmage 4

Base Abilities:

Str: 8
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 20
Wis: 10
Cha: 4 (Technically not allowed, but I think she deserves special dispensation.)

Level 20 Abilities:

Str: 8
Dex: 18
Con: 12 (18)
Int: 30 (36)
Wis: 10
Cha: 4

Feats:

1: Skill Focus (Knowledge: Arcana)
3: Quicken Spell
5: Split Ray
6: Chain Spell
9: Spell Focus (Transmutation)
12: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
15: Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
18: Arcane Mastery

Make her a Fire Elf. That will explain her skin color and give her a Charisma penalty, while retaining everything else. Also, I'm not sure on Loremaster here; mayhap Fatespinner+something instead/in addition?

[Woodsman]

I'm pretty sure Vadania is a half-elf, actually.

I can't remember where I saw it, but it was in a book of mine...

[Eldariel]

I'm pretty sure Vadania is a half-elf, actually.

I can't remember where I saw it, but it was in a book of mine...

This is true. My bad. Made the mistake since it makes no sense.

[Myou]

Str: 8
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 20
Wis: 10
Cha: -1 (Technically not allowed, but the horror of her abberant form is such that the laws of the D&D universe reshape themselves around her.)

Fixed.

[Faulty]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who think Mialee looks freakish. Regdar looks like he might be a Neanderthal from Frostburn.

[peacenlove]

Fixed.

How would you handle charisma drain/damage then? Or it doesn't get worse?

[PId6]

Fixed.

Make her a Fire Elf. That will explain her skin color and give her a Charisma penalty, while retaining everything else. Also, I'm not sure on Loremaster here; mayhap Fatespinner+something instead/in addition?

Fire Elf's a good idea. Loremaster's the only thing I can think of that remotely fits. Incantatrix doesn't seem right, nor any of the abjuration ones. Too bad there's no Master Generalist. Fatespinner might work, but not sure what else to put there.