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    Default The Ultimate Color Debate

    Identical to the ultimate alignment debate, except this one involves the MTG color pairings. If you can't pair two colors to a given character, feel free to label them 'pure' of a single color.

    For those unfamiliar with the system...


    Here's my first go:

    Jim Raynor - Red/Black
    Sarah Kerrigan (human) - White/Black
    Arcturus Mengsk - Blue/Black
    Zeratul - Green/Blue
    Tassadar - White/Blue
    Infested Kerrigan - Red/Black
    Judicator Aldaris - White/Black
    Homer Simpson - Red/Green
    Ned Flanders - Pure White
    Peter Griffin - Pure Red

    Debate as you wish.
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2009-08-22 at 01:07 PM.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    The only real colors are Blue, Red, and Black.
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    Well no, there's those in reality that believe in absolute socialist-level order, being white. A scant few are pure green (extreme environmentalists, heh).

    Being pure white doesn't mean you believe in socialism though (ie.; it might instead mean your life revolves around dreading not doing what you feel is right for others), and colors aren't a straight jacket to the character, just like alignment.
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2009-08-22 at 01:10 PM.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    Green is, without a doubt, the only color that deserves absolute respect. Tidesinger is completely wrong.
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    Don't Raynor, and possibly human!Kerrigan, kind of lack the ambition and ruthlessness of Black? And doesn't human!Kerrigan kind of lack the devotion to order of White? She was a rebel, after all.

    Also, I think this might fit better in either Other Games or Media Discussion, seeing as Magic isn't an RPG.

    Just to contribute

    James T. Kirk: Red
    Spock: Blue/White
    "Bones" McCoy: Red/White

    Kirk may also be white hybrid thanks to his well-intentioned moral absolutism.

    Shinji Ikari: White, but Red enough to hate himself about it.
    Asuka Soryu: Red. Duh.
    Rei Ayanami: Colorless White.
    Gendo Ikari: Black/Blue
    Misato Katsuragi: White/Red
    The Angels: White?

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    Last edited by Nerd-o-rama; 2009-08-22 at 01:47 PM.
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2009-08-23 at 03:45 PM.
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    Don't Raynor, and possibly human!Kerrigan, kind of lack the ambition and ruthlessness of Black? And doesn't human!Kerrigan kind of lack the devotion to order of White? She was a rebel, after all.
    Black isn't really entirely ambitious in my mind. It fights to survive and believes in toughness in everyone (it loves at least). A black person might simply want to survive and has a set way of going about it instead of kicking and biting whenever an obstacle greets them (as red might do).

    Kerrigan has immense ambition, how else did she survive being a ghost? Her mindset is all about survival and tenacity.

    Also she serves the rebels because she believes in her 'heart of hearts' (quoting white from the interview), that the confederacy isn't right after having been put through all the stuff she was put through.

    Both Kerrigan and Raynor are quite ruthless. Raynor is practically an antihero, just from all his failures. His personality basically makes room for a lot of potential flaws. Also, human Kerri killed without mercy when Mengsk ordered her to (read 'wings of liberty').

    EDIT: Again, someone could easily argue that Kerri is Red/White, since she serves an emotionally driven cause and her acts are metaphorically like that of an angry crusader in this sense.
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2009-08-22 at 02:04 PM.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidesinger View Post
    The only real colors are Blue, Red, and Black.
    you mean BLUE!, red and black

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidesinger View Post
    The only real colors are Blue, Red, and Black.
    I disagree very strongly on this. I believe that one of the most central parts of humanity is the defender. Man is meant to protect what he believes in and the people he loves. If we dont, we start to go funny in the head.

    on the OP... I disagree with your assessment of Jim Raynor. he just doesnt seem darwinistic to me at all.

    Kamina: RED. also awesome.
    Claude Frollo: Black and white, oddly enough.
    Last edited by tribble; 2009-08-22 at 01:59 PM.
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    Every dictatorial government in existence - Black and White.

    Rorschach - Black and Blue (ruthless and spiteful of lack of education in New York; in this case, ignorance leading to 'liberal, scandalous ways'), black and red (a ruthless emotional wreck of a vigilante), or Black and White (a ruthless crusader). I go for the latter.
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2009-08-22 at 02:06 PM.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    Black/red is the most selfish combo. Raynor is far from selfish. I don't know what is his colour (because, frankly, Magic colors are too specific to encompass all personalities, or even most of them), but there surely don't seem to be any black in there.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    Raynor seems White/Red. Impulse, altruistic rebel.
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    These characters are of ASOIAF
    Jaime Lannister, later on in ASOIAF, is white-red. He really tries to do the best for everyone, but his emotions and the perception of him thwart him at every turn. In the beginning of the series he's black red, a completely selfish creature that wants to fulfill all of his desires
    Cersei Lannister is black red in every sense of it. She thinks she's blue, but she's very much out of anyone's control, much less her own.
    Petyr Baelish is pure blue. He plays the game in order to play the game. He doesn't care about social positions, lives, or anything, as long as he's playing the game of wits, which he's cheating on anyway. At the end of the day, Petyr plays because he enjoys knowing more than anyone, and manipulating everyone. He may have a tiny bit of red in him, because his glee in the game is so completely obvious.
    Varys is blue, but much calmer. Varys simply knows. He plays the game for survival, knowing that he's better off than in any other way he'll live his life. He doesn't play for fun, or for power, but for life. He has tinges of both white and black, because he's playing for himself, but in playing, his goals are for the community to thrive.
    Now, if I were to say Order of the Stick characters...
    Roy is undoubtedly white. He's a good example of white.
    Haley is "good guy" black. Haley does what's good for her and her family, with no intention of assisting others for nothing. However, she wants to save the world from destruction (Probably because otherwise she'd be destroyed along with it).
    Belkar is black red. Chaotic Evil doesn't get much more chaotic or evil than him.
    Durkon is also white, but in a different way from Roy. Roy is the more altruistic side of white, while Durkon is the loyal side.
    Vaarsuvius started as blue, but went black for a bit, and is now more white than s/he was at the beginning of the strip.
    Elan is red. Simple.
    Redcloak is a great example of a white villain, much more than Watchmen Villain ever was. He wants the best for his people, and is willing to do horrible things for it.
    Xykon is a red villain. He's not black, because black would imply some responsibility on his part for his actions. Xykon does what he wants because he feels nice. He never planned ahead in the entire series, and is perfectly happy to just leech on to Redcloak's scheme.
    Last edited by pita; 2009-08-22 at 03:17 PM.
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    Roy is the more altruistic side of white. Haley is "good guy" black. Vaarsuvius started as blue, but went black for a bit, and is now more white than s/he was at the beginning of the strip. Redcloak is a great example of a white villain, much more than Watchmen Villain ever was. He wants the best for his people, and is willing to do horrible things for it.
    Or simply, Roy is white/blue while Durkon and Miko are both white/green (Miko descends to White/Red later on). Roy applauds logic, tactics and decisiveness (probably why he became leader), while Durkon is much more traditionalist and priestly. Potential to be 'Good guy black' translates to the traditionalist white/black in my book (feel for the character, understand their problems and perhaps root for them, like the godfather), and that's what Haley would be (she intends to the right thing, as long as she can watch out for herself at the same time... 'cause she's good at that and stuff, y'know?).

    Varsuuvius was blue at the beginning, but when you say 'turned to black', I'd argue 'blue/black' since he still had a concern with tracing down all knowledge wherever it was hiding. According to what you say, he'd shift over to blue/white. Losing the blue is losing what pretty much defines Varsuuvius' character.

    Redcloak would be a white/black. He is selfish about helping his own people and damn everyone else (just like the godfather).

    Red/black doesn't translate to EVIL. Its raw definition is essentially passionate and ruthless, but that doesn't also mean 'inability to care about others'. Raynor is pretty darn ruthless, and that earns him a black badge in my book. And at the same time, D&D's alignments had me pitting as CG.

    Colors are great for defining personality in a character but not position in the plot (good/evil is the simplistic method of defining protagonist/antagonist borders). It works especially well for PCs (who, in an open ended game, can't always predict what their position in the plot will become right off the bat) but not so much for NPCs, IMO.

    Finally, just like alignments, colors aren't meant to be extreme to any point. A character may only be slightly red but still red nonetheless. Raynor doesn't let his emotions control his EVERY action (though that often drives the plot), and yet he is still red, like Elan, who is pretty much the opposite. Similarly, a pure red character doesn't always need to be out of control and frivolous. The point is made in the interview with Red, that red can still think but his philosophy doesn't reflect thinking as a positive (not necessarily a negative either... he doesn't blatantly say THOUGHT DRAINS YOUR EMOTIONS).

    Raynor is far from selfish.
    He actually admits to selfishness in 'Queen of Blades'. Think of it this way - He leads all of his men on a goose hunt to save his girlfriend when the men are more interested in stopping the Dominion. He's lucky they don't mutiny then and there (in fact, he dreads this in 'Queen of Blades').

    Don't get me wrong, he's a like-able character though. Has a high charisma and all. He never seems to have time to look out for others, except that one time with Kerri though (and you can't blame him, the world's too violent to worry about others when YOU need to survive).

    *spoiler* Although he does make rescue attempts for strangers here and there (who wouldn't, actually), he continually fails and loses countless men. */spoiler*
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2009-08-22 at 07:03 PM.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by tribble View Post

    Kamina: RED. also awesome.
    Kamina: Red/Red. With a side of Red, and tendencies towards RED. (With a little Green deep, deep down). Also, Awesome.

    Simon: White/Red. He's looking to do what's right, but can often get in his own way with overthinking actions. Post Timeskip, he's probably more Red/Red like Kamina was. After the second Timeskip, most likely Colorless all the way. "Who the heck do you think I ... heh, nah, I'm no one, really ..."

    Yoko: Red/Blue. Definite Emotion/Thought conflict, especially post-timeskip at the school.

    Attenborough, a.k.a. Beam Spam McMuppet: Pew/Pew.

    Lord Genome: Black/White. He works to consolidate his power, and at the same time bring a certain amount of "peace" to the world.
    Lord Genome, Spiral Warrior: White/Blue. Consider for a moment the massive Xanatos Gambit he pulled off in oppressing humans in order to bring forward a new Spiral Warrior for Earth. (Unless that was fan speculation...I can't remember, but it makes sense)

    Beastmen: Black. No way around it.

    Viral: Red/Black. He shows individualism and motivation that the other beastmen don't really demonstrate.
    Viral, Post Timeskip: Red/Green. Simon's hotheadedness has rubbed off on him, so he keeps his Red affinity. However, his "terrorist" actions and desire to become more human (See: Viral's dream sequence) suggest a new affinity for the growth and development of Green.
    Last edited by AlterForm; 2009-08-22 at 11:11 PM.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by AlterForm View Post
    Kamina: Red/Red. With a side of Red, and tendencies towards RED. (With a little Green deep, deep down). Also, Awesome.
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    Black and Blue is all you need. You even get to make a horrible joke about what shape you're going to leave your opponent in based on your deck color.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by imp_fireball View Post
    Or simply, Roy is white/blue while Durkon and Miko are both white/green (Miko descends to White/Red later on). Roy applauds logic, tactics and decisiveness (probably why he became leader), while Durkon is much more traditionalist and priestly. Potential to be 'Good guy black' translates to the traditionalist white/black in my book (feel for the character, understand their problems and perhaps root for them, like the godfather), and that's what Haley would be (she intends to the right thing, as long as she can watch out for herself at the same time... 'cause she's good at that and stuff, y'know?).
    Good guy black is still black, I think. Haley watches out for herself first and foremost. She wants to help Elan because she loves him, so she acts like more of a good guy around him. I don't think Haley is white at all. Black can also want to do something that's right if that something helps him, and not getting destroyed by a super monster is generally a good start in the whole "helping yourself" thing. The closest she came to white in the series was not killing Bozzok.
    Roy is pure white. Just because someone understands tactics it doesn't make them blue. If you've played a mono-white soldier deck in MTG, you'll notice that there are far more tactics involved in playing that deck than in most blue decks. Knowledge is not one of Roy's goals. Yes, he uses his brains, but all well written characters do. I don't think any of the main characters are green, especially not Miko. Green implies a sort of willingness to live in peace with the world, which is not known amongst Miko's many character attributes.
    Varsuuvius was blue at the beginning, but when you say 'turned to black', I'd argue 'blue/black' since he still had a concern with tracing down all knowledge wherever it was hiding. According to what you say, he'd shift over to blue/white. Losing the blue is losing what pretty much defines Varsuuvius' character.
    I meant blue/black and blue/white. heh.
    Redcloak would be a white/black. He is selfish about helping his own people and damn everyone else (just like the godfather).
    Redcloak's goal is for equality. He wants the goblins to be an equal to all other races. His goal is not selfish at all. I'd give him some sort of shift after the end of SOD but I don't know what color would suit it. Black isn't prone to deluding itself.
    Where exactly is redcloak black? He's evil, definitely, but he's white evil.
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by pita View Post
    Redcloak's goal is for equality. He wants the goblins to be an equal to all other races. His goal is not selfish at all. I'd give him some sort of shift after the end of SOD but I don't know what color would suit it. Black isn't prone to deluding itself.
    Where exactly is redcloak black? He's evil, definitely, but he's white evil.
    I would say he's not black because he's evil, but more like he's black because he really only cares about Goblinoids and would like for them not to be treated as equal, but as superiors. It's hard to say he doesn't, since Redcloak grew up in a world were his people were beaten and stomped to death for the XP, and history told us what happens to these people.

    Besides, he serves the Dark One, and the Dark One wants everyone dead to begin with.

    Also, Xykon? Totally Black/Red.
    Last edited by Random NPC; 2009-08-23 at 02:35 AM.
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by pita View Post
    Now, if I were to say Order of the Stick characters...
    Roy is undoubtedly white. He's a good example of white.
    Haley is "good guy" black. Haley does what's good for her and her family, with no intention of assisting others for nothing. However, she wants to save the world from destruction (Probably because otherwise she'd be destroyed along with it).
    Belkar is black red. Chaotic Evil doesn't get much more chaotic or evil than him.
    Durkon is also white, but in a different way from Roy. Roy is the more altruistic side of white, while Durkon is the loyal side.
    Vaarsuvius started as blue, but went black for a bit, and is now more white than s/he was at the beginning of the strip.
    Elan is red. Simple.
    Redcloak is a great example of a white villain, much more than Watchmen Villain ever was. He wants the best for his people, and is willing to do horrible things for it.
    Xykon is a red villain. He's not black, because black would imply some responsibility on his part for his actions. Xykon does what he wants because he feels nice. He never planned ahead in the entire series, and is perfectly happy to just leech on to Redcloak's scheme.
    I pretty much agree with these. I'd put V as Blue/Red. S/he's red because he loves blowing stuff up, its his/her default solution to problems. I'd also put Xykon as Red/Black. Black doesn't imply taking responsibility for your actions, that's primarily white. He's an undead, selfish, power hungry necromancer. Those are all black. I might put Redcloak as Black/White, he enjoys the some of the horrible things he does too much, but he's primarily white.

    Now for the Linear Guild!

    Nale: Black
    He tries very hard to be a cliche, card-carrying villain. His flair for the theatric might make him red/black
    Sabine: Black
    She's a Demon or Devil and shows it. either of those are very black. (As a sidenote, magic has some fallen angel cards, but has anyone seen a risen demon?) She might be red/black also, as she tends to be very hedonistic.
    Thog: Red
    Acts almost entirely on impulse.
    Leeky Windstaff: Green
    Archetypical Evil Druid. Not much more to say here.
    Yok-Yok: White?
    Hard to say. He wasn't around very long. All we saw about him was the family vengeance thing, which tends to be white, but isn't at all out of place in any other color
    Pompey: Green? Black?
    Same problem as above. He primarily summoned bugs, which are usually green or black, but that's pretty tenuous.
    Hilgya: Red
    Rebellious fire mage. Possibly Red/White on account of being a cleric (usually white or black) and using healing and protection magic.
    Yik-Yik: Red
    Basically same temperament as Belkar.
    Zz'dtri: ???
    Zz'dtri's quiet and used an ice spell. Not a lot to go on.

    Other OotS characters:
    Hinjo: White, for the same reasons as Roy.
    Celia: White/Blue
    She's a lawyer (white/blue), a semi-pacifist (white-ish), and an air creature (blue)
    Miko: White, then crazy
    MitD: Green
    He doesn't think much and relies mostly on instinct.

    Miscellaneous
    Harry Dresden: White/Red, but he thinks he's Black.
    Harry Potter: White/Red (mostly red)
    Garfield: Green/Black
    Captain Jack Sparrow: Red/Black/Blue
    Batman: White (Ruthless in the pursuit of justice, with an unbreakable moral code)
    Superman: White

    Anyone want to take a shot at Calvin and Hobbes? I canít place them.

    Also, remember Batman's Alignment Poster? Who would work for a MTG color version?
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    I'd put Calvin in at Blue/Red, archetypical colors for highly imaginative characters with a rather disorderly approach toward life. (He'd make a great Izzet guildmage if he can deal with Niv-Mizzet's ego.)

    Hobbes, despite being an animal, seems to have a great deal more sense at times. I'd put him more at blue/green.


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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Random NPC View Post
    I would say he's not black because he's evil, but more like he's black because he really only cares about Goblinoids and would like for them not to be treated as equal, but as superiors. It's hard to say he doesn't, since Redcloak grew up in a world were his people were beaten and stomped to death for the XP, and history told us what happens to these people.

    Besides, he serves the Dark One, and the Dark One wants everyone dead to begin with.

    Also, Xykon? Totally Black/Red.
    Redcloak wants equality for all races. He's stated that several times in SOD. He believes that, given an even footing, goblinoids could create a society to match that of mankind, and have a world utopia.
    We don't know anything about the motives of the Dark One, except for what Redcloak said about him. And Redcloak didn't say he wants everyone dead.
    Xykon could be black, but I really like to think of him as the example of a mono-red villain. Although, if he continues what he's doing, I may have to consider the facts inevitable.
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    Where exactly is redcloak black? He's evil, definitely, but he's white evil.
    But RC is doing his thing for survival, mainly (survival of his race is a 'hey, yah, that too... that'd be really nice'). He is less willing to help Xykon because of this (Xykon being order, the leader, the guy that keeps it all together), so that would not make him as white as you think.

    Anyone want to take a shot at Calvin and Hobbes?
    Calvin - Red/Black. Calvin is stubborn and emotional, often in it for himself.
    Hobbes - White/Red. Hobbes often worries about the feelings of others, but he also loves to gloat.

    MITD - Acting on instinct = Red. Having a tea party because its fun = Red. :P

    Also, how does being an air creature make you blue? Unless you want law to progress in a state (although blues are often about efficiency as well). There's some political activists out there that would like to see things purely 'progress' by a social standpoint. Really, it's hard to place those people in a given color (Red/Blue or White/Blue possibly... being blue doesn't make you non-delusional or un-political, imo... although blues often ignore the feelings of others as they often think ahead).

    Xykon could be black, but I really like to think of him as the example of a mono-red villain.
    Xykon's pretty cliche actually. Although there's plenty of mono red villains already. What about sabretooth from xmen?

    Michael Myers (a deranged man that chases people and murders 'em when there's cops swarming all over isn't too concerned about their own survival)?

    Hobbes, despite being an animal, seems to have a great deal more sense at times. I'd put him more at blue/green.
    Hobbes really is a nature guy (forgot about that). Though he definitely isn't blue. It's always Calvin posing the philosophical questions, with Hobbes merely responding in kind. Hobbes could be white/green or red/green.

    Also, Calvin probably does suit red/blue more, although I did imagine him as sort of an emotional dark lord (black/red) - except maybe that was more 'emotional mastermind'.
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2009-08-24 at 03:32 PM.

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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    I just found another article for MTG colors. Just saying.
    http://wizards.com/magic/magazine/ar...om/daily/mr335
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    ...and I was thinking about a thread on Dragons or Slaad (black and red = evil, etc)...
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2009-09-28 at 04:07 AM.
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    Default Re: The Ultimate Color Debate

    Ah, a classic.

    I think the Simpsons went: Marge/white, Lisa/blue, Homer/red, Bart/black, and Maggie/green. It's a classic five-way split. I would also call Spock pure blue.

    Quote Originally Posted by imp_fireball View Post
    Black isn't really entirely ambitious in my mind.
    According to WOTC's definition, what Black really wants is omnipotence. It doesn't get much more ambitious than that.

    For that matter, blue wants omniscience, white wants stability, green wants growth, and red wants freedom.

    Going for Watchmen, I'd say Manhattan/blue (this one is really obvious), Roschach/white (he is an excellent example of how white isn't always good), Comedian/red (duh), Silk Spectre/green (I suppose), and Ozymandias/blue and white again (blue method, white motivation). Nite Owl I find hard to pin down, but mostly white. Overall, Watchman makes a good show of displaying various kinds of white and why they don't always get along. Note that no color automatically gets along with itself, anyway.

    ASOIAF. Jaime starts as red (never black, that was never his motivation) and slowly turns to white. Cersei, on the other hand, is simply black. She's not red at all (doesn't care about freedom) and not blue either (since she's too emotional for that, and frankly not smart enough). Petyr is blue, no argument there. On the other hand, Eddard is very white, Catelyn is green, and Robbert is very red. Stannis is also extremely white, whereas Tywin is black, and Tyrion is probably red.

    Order of the Stick. Roy is pure white, no argument there, as is Durkon. Elan is also obviously white, he's the stereotypical heroic bard. Haley is very red, and not black at all since she lacks both the motivation and the method. Belkar is also red since he mostly cares about "doing whatever I feel like"; he lacks the ambition to be black, and no, evil isn't always black. Vaarsuvius is purely red; while he talks a lot, he acts almost entirely on impulse, and blows things up rather than thinking them through. He likes to think he's blue, but he's not, and has never been.

    Xykon is as black as they get, and not just for being a lich: he literally wants omnipotence. So does redcloak, who is also very black. The MITD is, of course, green. Miko started white and took a turn for the black: her motivation is never about red/freedom. Hinjo is simply white, and Celia is blue (and not just because of her element).

    Regarding the Linear Guild. Sabine is obviously black, and Thog is obviously red. Nale feels like red/black, which makes him a nice opposite for Elan's white. Hilgya and Yikyik are red, and Zz'tdri is probably blue or black, but talks so little that it's hard to tell. Leeky is green, Pompey is mostly black, and Yokyok is white.

    Harry Potter is white by definition (whereas Ron = red and Hermione = Green). Garfield is also red, since he really cares only about his whim. Jack Sparrow is very red as well. Superman is the definition of white, whereas Batman depends on his interpretation. Calvin is extremely red, Hobbes is mostly green.
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