[3.5] The Death Penalty

[PId6]

One aspect of 3.5 I really dislike is the fact that you lose a level after death. From a player's perspective, having to retread old ground and lose the Cool Things^TM you gained last level is annoying and disheartening, especially if it's from some freak critical hit off of a random encounter or an annoying critical failure on a saving throw.

From a DM's perspective, you have to rebalance your encounters to avoid TPKs when that happens, especially if the one killed had some important role in the party (like wizard or cleric). Plus, a lower level character is even more likely to die, so the cycle could continue repeatedly with the same person dying again and again. You could do your best to avoid killing off anyone each encounter, but that requires very careful balancing and may lead to DM fiat just to keep someone alive.

So, any solutions to this? If you eliminate the level loss though, would that also make death too much of a revolving door? 5000 GP is steep at low levels, but it quickly becomes pocket change as level goes up. What would be some way to remove the level loss but still keep death from losing its frightful aspect? I suppose an escalating GP cost can work, or perhaps an XP cost that's still lower than losing a whole level. Or possibly a penalty to something. I know 4e gives a -1 penalty to attack/skills/saves, but that feels like a slap on the wrist to me. What are some good alternatives to this?

[arguskos]

My method is to make death permanent, at least permanent enough to require a long involved quest to retrieve the soul of a dead comrade.

Basically, you can't just *BING!* rez someone in my games. You have to earn it, either by talking to their god, finding their soul, or bargaining with eldritch powers. Death was meant to be a big deal, and so it is now.

Course, I bet that's not the answer you wanted, was it?

[sadi]

You could always implement the original 1st version of - 1 con per death with permanent death once you've been raised a total of your starting con score. I've never liked the level loss myself, but I tend to play a smart caster so when I died the whole party got wiped and we're all boned anyhow.

[vrellum]

I agree with PId6. Permanent or nearly permanent death is the best solution imo.

[Faleldir]

I suggest ability burn. It can only be restored by resting, so even when the spell becomes cheap, it's a major inconvenience that could make you fail your quest.

[JonestheSpy]

So, any solutions to this?

Um, take levels in Expert and the Craft(Shoes) feat and stay home where it's safe?

Seriously, death has to have some consequence. Characters (and their players) should fear death, in my humble opinion.

[PId6]

My method is to make death permanent, at least permanent enough to require a long involved quest to retrieve the soul of a dead comrade.

Basically, you can't just *BING!* rez someone in my games. You have to earn it, either by talking to their god, finding their soul, or bargaining with eldritch powers. Death was meant to be a big deal, and so it is now.

Course, I bet that's not the answer you wanted, was it?

That works for certain types of games, but you really can't go on epic soul-hunting quests when you're only level 7 or 8 or something. Permanent death can work if you've the right group, but if players put a lot into their characters and take the time to write long backgrounds, taking all that away with an unlucky crit is really just mean. And you can bet they're probably not going to put as much effort into their next backstory if their previous one was killed off in the first session.

I suggest ability burn. It can only be restored by resting, so even when the spell becomes cheap, it's a major inconvenience that could make you fail your quest.

Problem with that is, as long as you're not in any kind of urgent situation, that's really no hindrance at all. Just wait it out.

Seriously, death has to have some consequence. Characters (and their players) should fear death, in my humble opinion.

Which is exactly what I'm asking: how to make death still relevant without keeping level loss. I've listed problems to the normal mechanic; the point of the game is to have fun, and if someone dies multiple times and ends up with a level 4 character in a level 9 group, they're probably not having much fun.

[Jack_Simth]

What are some good alternatives to this?

There really aren't any good solutions for this.

Cheap death makes death... cheap. Expensive death (a long drawn-out quest for a resurrection) means the player is sitting on the sidelines for one or more sessions. Permanent death just means a replacement character ... making death cheap again.

When it comes down to it, it's "okay, how much do we want death to sting". Loss of a level? Reduced XP, and a negative level until your XP reaches your level? Ability point reduction? Strange changes to the character? Roll up a new character? But that's a preference, so you the best you can hope for online is fodder to see something that triggers an "ooh, that looks good" reaction from you.

[PId6]

But that's a preference, so you the best you can hope for online is fodder to see something that triggers an "ooh, that looks good" reaction from you.

Yeah, pretty much what I'm going for. Just looking for some suggestions or idea that might work and picking it up if I like it, possibly spurring some discussion in the process.

[Roland St. Jude]

...taking all that away with an unlucky crit is really just mean...

Then don't let this happen. Given that you've mentioned this twice now as the key problem that makes it feel bad, this is the part to avoid. (So this advice is tailored to that perceived problem - the pointless death dictated by fickle dice.) Fudge to avoid empty deaths. Reserve death for instances where the character intentionally stood in and took the extra blows or otherwise sacrificed themselves (heroic death) or where they played poorly or stubbornly or otherwise earned it (deserved death). I've played games like this. They do lessen the sting of death but also dampen the thrill of victory and sense of danger. But at least we knew we weren't going to die a pointless death and that our characters would live long if they lived smart and could pick their place to make a stand and risk it all.

But really, I agree that it's a dangerous world out there. As long as the DM isn't purposefully gunning for someone's character, I think people should accept that death is a major risk in an adventurer's life. Not every would-be hero gets to make it to world-renowned hero. That's what makes it so sweet for those that do.

[mikej]

Seriously, death has to have some consequence. Characters (and their players) should fear death, in my humble opinion.

Agreed, if the consequences of death are minor than it takes away a lot of the dangers and trills of adventuring.

[Fizban]

Jack Smith got the one I like the looks of: permanent negative level until the next time you level up. In some ways it's worse, since the -1 attacks and saves is probably more than you would have lost from the level, but you get to keep your class abilities. Instead of losing all your 5th level spells when being res'd at 9th, you instead lose one per day. Enough to hurt, but not enough to cripple if you had more than one. For non-casters, you won't lose your bonus feat or sneak attack dice or other features.

As for making death matter, while I'm open to any kind of game, I usually assume that as players our characters are the designated heroes and get to do stuff like come back from the dead if needed. Partly because I just play for fun and partly because the spells for it are already in the rules. Since you're looking for options I think it's pretty clear you want resurrection magic to be around, so I think the above would work.

[josh13905]

How about this to trigger the that looks good reaction:

Keep the Standard death penalty, but add a twist, when the character israised then a deity/devil/eldritch power meets his soul right before it is sent back to his body and tries to make a deal with him, something like this maybe:

You are being raised as but a shard of your former self, I can restore you to your full power, but you must make a binding pact.
Put Deal or whatever here, or write up a contract with some way of completing it

Maybe the contract could be killing an enemy of the diety/power/devil or getting an item, or something. Through in a penalty if you want say -2 to ability score until completed.

The best part, they can choose to say no and lose a level if they want.

[Kizara]

Make res spells more costly and difficult to cast. I did the following:

a) To res someone its 1000 gp + 1000 gp per level, in diamond dust or what-have-you.

b) The casting time is in days, instead of minutes. It takes 1 day + 1 day per level.

c) It costs 500 xp + 250 xp per level.

d) True Ressurectino costs half as much but takes twice as long as the above. It also doesn't need a body etc.

e) Reincarnation also costs half as much, but also takes half as long as the above.

Note: The per-level in the above points refers to the level of the ressie, in case there was any confusion.

Now, as its far more expensive to get ressed, you balance the lack of level loss with a hit to general party resources. If you feel that the party is now under-wealthed, simply be generous in the next dragon horde.

OPTIONAL RULE:

The above costs can be cut in half with Spellcraft check from the caster in question (DC= 20 + spell level + level of person being ressed), however this leaves the recepient ressie shaken, tormented with nightmares etc as his soul was quickly yanked through the negative energy plane. It also leaves him with 1d6+2 permanent ability drain, per ability. This drain can be removed by spells such as Greater Restoration, as normal (and when this is done, the nightmares and such generally subside, but its still a lasting trauma).

[JonestheSpy]

Which is exactly what I'm asking: how to make death still relevant without keeping level loss. I've listed problems to the normal mechanic; the point of the game is to have fun, and if someone dies multiple times and ends up with a level 4 character in a level 9 group, they're probably not having much fun.

Well, there's always starting a new character.

I know folks get attached to characters, myself included, but I just don't think that it's a net benefit to the game if people feel they have some kind of entitlement to surving the entire campaign relatively unscathed.

Heroes in books and movies almost always survive, but they don't KNOW they're going to. Players shouldn't feel they're THE heroes - maybe it turns out they're part of that "Countless seekers have undetaken this quest only to fail horribly..." contingent.

The one practical suggestion I can think of is to strip the character of EVERYTHING - all treasure, all magic items. Might be hard to justify if the other players say "But we brought his stuff with us! It's right here". Maybe the gods demand it in payment and the newly rezzed must enter the owrld like unto a newborn babe etc. of course this only works in a campaign that's loot-heavy enough that it would be a real blow, but not so loot-heavy that it can all be replanished easily.

Edit: Kizara's suggestions have merit, too.

[Milskidasith]

So you essentially think the best way to lessen the sting of death is to make it so that the methods of restoring players from death make them so weak they are useless? There's a reason DM's generally don't do MDJs, but you are basically suggesting it's built into every character death.

[HamHam]

Death penalties are dumb. If you want the game to be dark and gritty and death to be a real problem, just go with perma-death. If you don't, have plenty of magic on hand to rez anyone who dies with a small fee.

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, pretty much what I'm going for. Just looking for some suggestions or idea that might work and picking it up if I like it, possibly spurring some discussion in the process.

Ah. Well, let's see... methods I've heard of in various places....

1) Reduced Level (default, we're all familiar with this one).
2) Long-term negative level: You reduce the character's XP to match what you would get, above, and inflict them with a negative level (-5 HP, -1 to all rolls, -1 to all level-dependent effects such as caster level, -1 spell slot of your highest available spell level) that only goes away once they re-earn enough XP to be at their "actual" level again.
3) Comes back twisted. Roll a d100, and consult the following table (or make a similar one)
{table=Head]d100|Effect
1|Take a permanent -2 to Strength
2|Take a permanent -2 to Dexterity
3|Take a permanent -2 to Constitution
4|Take a permanent -2 to Intelligence
5|Take a permanent -2 to Wisdom
6|Take a permanent -2 to Charisma
7|Gain a permanent +1 to Strength
8|Gain a permanent +1 to Dexterity
9|Gain a permanent +1 to Constitution
10|Gain a permanent +1 to Intelligence
11|Gain a permanent +1 to Wisdom
12|Gain a permanent +1 to Charisma
13|Gain a 0th level spell as a spell-like ability, usable once per day (player choice).
14|Gain a 1st level spell as a spell-like ability, usable once per day (player choice).
15|Gain a 2nd level spell as a spell-like ability, usable once per day (player choice).
16-25|Nothing happens, you come back normal.
26-35|Lose a level (as death type 1, above)
36-45|Gain a long-term negative level (as death type 2, above)
46-50|Alignment shift one step towards Chaotic
51-55|Alignment Shift one step towards Lawful
56-60|Alignment Shift one step towards Good
61-65|Alignment Shift one step towards Evil
66-100|Nothing of note happens.
[/table]
4) Take a permanent -1 to Con.
5) Disney Death (you're fine!)
6) You don't come back.

[kpenguin]

Try REAL permanant death. If their character dies, kick the player out of the game. After all, they're dead and don't exist anymore.

Extra points if you get them to hang themselves from being distraught over the death.

While you're at it, promise your surviving players that if they grind long enough, you'll teach them real magic. That'll give them motivation enough to both stay alive and take risks to level.

[Milskidasith]

Why are there two nothing of notes? And what if the character is a cleric; shifting alignment would involve making his character totally useless.

And when you say permanent, are you talking "it can never come back" permanent, or could something powerful (like wish/miracle) bring it back?

[Jack_Simth]

Why are there two nothing of notes?

Because I was running out of ideas and needed fill space.

And what if the character is a cleric; shifting alignment would involve making his character totally useless.

And? It's one step. If you start your character out at your deity's alignment, it takes two unlucky deaths to violate your alignment restrictions.

And when you say permanent, are you talking "it can never come back" permanent, or could something powerful (like wish/miracle) bring it back?

Permanent permanent.

Try REAL permanant death. If their character dies, kick the player out of the game. After all, they're dead and don't exist anymore.

Catch: You'll quickly run out of players in most areas if you do this.

While you're at it, promise your surviving players that if they grind long enough, you'll teach them real magic. That'll give them motivation enough to both stay alive and take risks to level.

A promise is only a useful motivator if it's credible.

[Roland St. Jude]

Death penalties are dumb. If you want the game to be dark and gritty and death to be a real problem, just go with perma-death. If you don't, have plenty of magic on hand to rez anyone who dies with a small fee.

That's a false dichotomy, though. What if you want something in the middle?

As for the OP, if what you want is non-empty deaths, I think you have to handle that as a judgment call in the first case by not letting those deaths happen, rather than by rule penalties attached to resurrection. And I guess if what you want is a penalty less harsh than a lost level, a negative level until your next level gain seems simple enough. Or some other penalty that lingers. I think an argument could be made for a minor penalty to any of the attributes that just takes a while to shake off (Charisma, oddity of the afterlife effects personality or merely others perceptions; Constitution, the taxing nature of the journey leaves it's mark, etc.)

[kpenguin]

Catch: You'll quickly run out of players in most areas if you do this.

Then obviously you play with pansies. If Marcie lets Blackleaf die then its her fault and nobody elses and she deserves to be punished for it.

A promise is only a useful motivator if it's credible.

Who says its not?

[Milskidasith]

I still find it a bad idea to give alignment shifts for the fact that you get raised... it can completely invalidate the mechanical and roleplaying reasons for playing a character.

[kpenguin]

I still find it a bad idea to give alignment shifts for the fact that you get raised... it can completely invalidate the mechanical and roleplaying reasons for playing a character.

Mechanical perhaps in certain cases, but an alignment shift can make for an interesting and rewarding roleplaying experience.

[Milskidasith]

Mechanical perhaps in certain cases, but an alignment shift can make for an interesting and rewarding roleplaying experience.

Sure, it could, or you could also have a specific character in mind that's, say, very good and somewhat chaotic... and then be shifted down to Neutral, and there goes all that roleplaying.

[Seffbasilisk]

Get True Ressurection to avoid mechanical penalties, make it an arduous quest to acquire the diamonds if you want it more difficult plot-wise.

[HamHam]

That's a false dichotomy, though. What if you want something in the middle?

You shouldn't, because everything in the middle is dumb. Either the penalty is high enough that your character now sucks, which means you might as well make another one (unless that would also include penalties which make you suck, in which case the party just become worse and worse and you need to rewrite the campaign or you end up with a TPK, and it's no fun along the way). Or it's low enough that you basically just need to grind for a while to make it up which is bad because grinding is boring and dumb.

There's no middle ground there. Death has enough other problems associated with it (such as failing your mission or wasting in game time which may let the bad guys do bad things) that having a mechanical penalty on the dead character pointless and ultimately just detrimental to having fun.

Furthermore, it is unfair to certain classes over others. Tanks have to be in danger of dying in order to fulfill their role in the party. As do all other melee characters. Casters one the other hand can be well out of danger behind various defenses while killing things.

[AslanCross]

Death penalties are dumb. If you want the game to be dark and gritty and death to be a real problem, just go with perma-death. If you don't, have plenty of magic on hand to rez anyone who dies with a small fee.

As has been mentioned above, throwing resurrection completely out the window has the possibility of actually cheapening death: "Oh, I guess that's it for Fergus the Flammable. Sigh. Oh hey, I have a backup character prepared that I've been dying to use..."

In fact, I once had a guy in my group who wanted to get his character killed because he screwed up the build and didn't know what he was doing the first time.

The negative level sounds like a good compromise---getting pulled back into the realm of the living hurts, but if you work hard enough you can get back into shape without losing all the goodies you've already gotten.

[Skorj]

That's a false dichotomy, though. What if you want something in the middle?

As for the OP, if what you want is non-empty deaths, I think you have to handle that as a judgment call in the first case by not letting those deaths happen, rather than by rule penalties attached to resurrection. And I guess if what you want is a penalty less harsh than a lost level, a negative level until your next level gain seems simple enough. Or some other penalty that lingers. I think an argument could be made for a minor penalty to any of the attributes that just takes a while to shake off (Charisma, oddity of the afterlife effects personality or merely others perceptions; Constitution, the taxing nature of the journey leaves it's mark, etc.)

If you want something in the middle, do what many MMOs do: have a non-permanent penalty for death. You operate at a serious penalty for some time after death.

Games should be fun. In a level-based game, perma-death pretty much means the player needs to join a new group, as he'll be basically useless with a new level 1 character (unless the party is still 1-2, or course). That's about as "not fun" as you can get. Permanent death penalties are bad in the same way, just not to the same extreme. Die a few times, instead of once, and it's time to find a new gaming group.

I run brutal campaigns. Life is cheap. Death had better be cheap too, or no one would enjoy the game. In my longest campaign (ran for 5 years, and the players seemed happy with how it worked), being raised from the dead by any means mean you're hors de combat for two weeks game time. No spells, no combat, but you can stagger around, observe what's hapening, and participate in diplomacy. In practice this worked just right. Players feared the death of their characters, and only deliberately risked death in battle in circumstances where heoism of that sort was appropriate (avoiding a TPK or slaughter of innocents), but no one ever quit the group because of character death.

Of course, if you allow players to bring in replacement characters at the same level as the party, that's the ultimate cheap death, and there's hardly any reason to have any sort of rez. That sort of campaign can be fun for a while.