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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer

    Since the normal LP for SEIV is coming to an end and it's been far too long since I got to play this game properly, I've decided to try doing a multiplayer Let's Play for it. First step: recruiting and game settings.

    Hello and welcome, everyone, to the multiplayer version of Let's Play for Space Empires IV. I'll be your host. If you're interested in playing, please post and vote on the game settings. I will only count votes from players in the final determination. Spectators are free to comment and discuss, but your votes will have no direct effect on the settings chosen. Want to play but don't have the game? No problem. You can purchase it for legal immediate download direct from the publisher right here for the measly price of $9.99 US.

    When we get to that point, I will set up the game on PBW and walk everyone through how to join, create your empire, and play. As this is a Let's Play, all players will be expected to take notes of what you are doing and how the game is going. This is a competitive game, however, and immediate updates could pose a problem of either keeping too much secret from the audience or revealing too much to your opponents by posting it here. In an attempt to fix this, I suggest that there will be a 20 turn delay between play and post. Keep notes turn by turn, and post each when 20 turns have passed. Regardless, be assured that I personally will put a higher priority on fun for all than on winning myself as soon as possible.

    So, on to the game settings. Players (and only players) please vote for these:
    Quadrant Type:
    The options are:
    1) Mid-Life
    2) Cluster
    3) Galactic Edge
    4) Spiral Arm
    5) Grid
    6) Ancient

    I recommend not Ancient, as that type has a much higher chance of randomly giving one or two players gigantic handicaps by filling their starting area with dead systems and black holes.

    Quadrant Size
    1) Small
    2) Medium
    3) Large

    This depends to some degree on how many players we end up with. I like having room to expand, though, and if the player base is too small we can fill in with AI players as a fall back option.

    Warp Points located anywhere in system
    1) On
    2) Off

    Without this option, naturally occurring warp points are restricted to the very edge of systems. With it on, they can be farther in, which leads to (imo) more interesting system layouts and often makes it possible to send reinforcements through your empire in less time.

    Event Frequency
    1) None
    2) Low
    3) Medium
    4) High

    Self explanatory.

    Maximum Event Severity
    1) Low
    2) Medium
    3) High
    4) Catastrophic

    I believe the only "catastrophic" event is a supernova. Planets can explode (not very often) on "high".

    Technology Cost
    1) Low
    2) Medium
    3) High

    The default and my preference is medium, a parabolic curve. For levels beyond 1 in any given technology, level X costs X*X/2 times the cost of level 1. Low is a linear progression, level X costs X times the cost of level 1. This makes normally very expensive end game technologies far too cheap in my opinion. High is simply double medium, except for the first level. The cost of level 1 of each tech is constant regardless of this setting.

    Starting Resources for Player
    1) Low (5000)
    2) Medium (20000)
    3) High (100000)

    Each player starts with the listed amount of minerals, organics, and radioactives in storage, and also gets that many research points as a bonus on turn 1.

    Home Planet Value
    1) Bad
    2) Average
    3) Good

    Bad = resource values near 80%, small planet size. Average = resource values near 100%, medium planet size. Good = resource values near 120%, large planet size. I vote good.

    Number of Starting Planets
    1, 3, 5, or 10.

    Self explanatory. I vote 1.

    Racial Points for New Players
    1) None (0)
    2) Low (2000)
    3) Medium (3000)
    4) High (5000)

    This is how many points each player can spend on customizing his race. With none, players would have to take penalties to gain points in order to be able to improve anything at all. I vote high to give more room for experimenting.

    There are some other settings, but they generally modify the game in ways I think are too drastic for the first try at this.

    One rule deserves special note: the Deeply Religious racial trait is banned. This trait is extremely overpowered to the point of being broken, and I will not allow any empire with that trait into this game. I can explain why in detail if you really want me to.

    Ready? Begin!
    Last edited by Douglas; 2009-08-26 at 08:24 AM.
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    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post

    One rule deserves special note: the Deeply Religious racial trait is banned. This trait is extremely overpowered to the point of being broken, and I will not allow any empire with that trait into this game. I can explain why in detail if you really want me to.

    Ready? Begin!
    Okay. I'll bite.

    Why?
    Remember how I was wishing for the peace of oblivion a minute ago?

    Yeah. That hasn't exactly changed with more knowledge of the situation. -Security Chief Victor Jones, formerly of the UESC Marathon.

    X-Com avatar by BRC. He's good folks.

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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    Okay. I'll bite.

    Why?
    Short version: They get a component that is broken. Not just overpowered, not just cheesy, but flat-out game-breaking.
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    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Any interest in playing, Artanis?

    The Deeply Religious racial trait gives access to, among other things, the Religious Talisman. This component makes all direct fire weapons on the same ship always hit. ALWAYS. 100% accuracy. Let's compare that with the normal situations, shall we?

    Assuming racial, cultural, and experience bonuses all cancel out, equal level combat sensors and ECM, max level armor (not really all that expensive to get), and cruiser to dreadnought sized ships. Sensors edge out ECM by 5%, but stealth and scattering armor give a 30% defense bonus with no corresponding offense. That's a net -25% modifier to hit rates.

    The normal hit rate calculation with no modifiers is 100% with a 10% reduction per square of distance to the target. Weapon range normally varies from 1 to 8. It is not possible to actually close to 0 range without ramming someone. So, accuracy varies from 90% to 20%. Add the modifier calculated above, and that goes down to 65% to 1% (hard coded minimum). Let's say about 30% or 40% at typical ranges. So, each side will hit about 1/3 of the time.

    Now give one side the Religious Talisman. That side hits with every shot. Period. Completely ignoring all other factors. The addition of this single component has tripled his firepower. If he chooses his strategy to fight at extreme range, the ratio can be considerably worse. And the cost of this powerup? 1500 racial points plus a lot of research might seem fairly significant at first glance, but... The amount of research required isn't actually all that high, and you need to consider the implications of the fact that the Talisman ignores and overrides all other modifiers - including the racial offense bonus that you can spend racial points on. Now, it's pretty standard to raise this bonus to +20% at the cost of 1000 racial points because this is a very important statistic and that's the cutoff point for drastically increased cost. The Talisman player can ignore this. In fact, he can drop it to a -20% penalty. Compared to the usual +20%, this gains him back 2000 points. The combination of this with the Deeply Religious racial trait that will allow him to better than ignore the penalty by mid game actually gives him 500 racial points as a free bonus. Instead of costing a hefty price, this choice actually gives you more free points to spend on other advantages.

    So, yeah. The benefit is far too big, and the cost is actually negative.
    Last edited by Douglas; 2009-08-23 at 11:25 PM.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    What about mods?

    Years of work have gone into improving the base game in various ways, and if it is not going to be a cutthroat game, the learning curve won't be a problem even for new players.

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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)





    Quadrant Type:
    any except cluster or grid

    Quadrant Size:
    Large

    Warp Points located anywhere in system:
    on

    Event Frequency
    medium

    Maximum Event Severity
    Catastrophic

    Technology Cost
    Medium

    Starting Resources for Player
    Medium

    Home Planet Value
    Good

    Number of Starting Planets
    3

    helps speed up slow start

    Racial Points for New Players
    Medium

    ----------------------------
    Last edited by Smight; 2009-08-24 at 03:46 PM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Question: would scores and/or tech-tree be visible?

    Also, I always play with Intelligence Projects turned off, so I've really got no idea how those work (not to mention I'd not be getting my usual extra... 800? bonus points from turning racial Cunning all the way down).

    One last question: How are we determining Victory Conditions for this game? Is there going to be a vote for that, or...?
    Last edited by Juhn; 2009-08-24 at 12:30 AM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Any interest in playing, Artanis?
    Some interest. It's a bit late at night to make a decision right now though.
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    I borrowed my Dad's copy and installed it, I am REALLY bad at this game and have never used PbE. But, I'm willing to try and at least be an easy beatdown for someone. I've only been playing for a couple of days and i still get rolled by easy PCs.

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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    I'd like to play, unfortunately I still got a week of resists and still have to buy the game (which I was planning to do anyway after reading the Let's Play), so I'll just wait for now and see what the situation is in a week.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Hmm, Ill join. though my... "ahem" Story Writing Skills Are not exactly the best,

    Quadrant Type:
    Spiral Arm

    Quadrant Size
    Medium


    Warp Points located anywhere in system
    On

    Event Frequency
    Low


    Self explanatory.

    Maximum Event Severity
    Catastrophic

    Technology Cost
    Medium

    Starting Resources for Player
    Medium (20000)


    Home Planet Value
    Good

    Number of Starting Planets
    1. Though im likely to Regret this.

    Racial Points for New Players
    High


    (This games going to last so long... )


    EDIT: Also, does it matter if i bought my game with Steam?
    Last edited by Aragehaor; 2009-08-24 at 10:52 AM.
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    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhn View Post
    Question: would scores and/or tech-tree be visible?
    I see no point in hiding the tech tree, it's not like you can't look that information up in another game or in the data files.

    Scores viewing I pretty strongly prefer keeping limited to your own score. The score breakdown reveals too much information about everyone too easily. If the new PBW works anything like the old one, though, it will be possible to have a more customizable limited score view available on the website though it won't be available in game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhn View Post
    Also, I always play with Intelligence Projects turned off, so I've really got no idea how those work (not to mention I'd not be getting my usual extra... 800? bonus points from turning racial Cunning all the way down).
    There are a number of intelligence projects that you spend points on just like research projects. When a project completes, its cost is deducted from the current progress of any counter-intel projects the target is working on, adjusted for the level of the counter-intel project. If this is enough to deplete all points from counter-intel, the attack succeeds and something happens.

    Counter-intel is pretty cost effective, so if you don't want to bother trying to go offensive with intel you can still get 500 points back for a 20% penalty without crippling your defensive strength too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhn View Post
    One last question: How are we determining Victory Conditions for this game? Is there going to be a vote for that, or...?
    Do we really need the game to tell us when to stop playing? I figure we can just debate amongst ourselves and decide when we think the game is over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celesyne View Post
    I borrowed my Dad's copy and installed it, I am REALLY bad at this game and have never used PbE. But, I'm willing to try and at least be an easy beatdown for someone. I've only been playing for a couple of days and i still get rolled by easy PCs.
    If you have any specific questions or just want general advice, I'll be happy to answer. If you want to play, please vote on the listed game settings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aragehaor View Post
    Hmm, Ill join. though my... "ahem" Story Writing Skills Are not exactly the best,
    Don't worry too much about that, just try to take reasonable technical notes. You could probably find a volunteer to spin a story for you out of them, or you can just post them as is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aragehaor View Post
    EDIT: Also, does it matter if i bought my game with Steam?
    No, that should work just fine.
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    I'm definitely interested in playing, but I'm not sure if I'll have enough time with schoolwork to devote myself both to playing and writing updates on my empire. I also only just recently got the game, so I'll need to learn the mechanics and just how to effectively manage my interstellar dominion.
    This is a pretty cool idea, given how it includes more than just one person into a LP. Hope you get it off the ground.
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    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Oh yeah, forgot to mention this earlier: I'm planning on a 48 hour turn time. That means from the moment the turn processes and shows up in your email inbox, you have 48 hours to play before you will be forced to miss the turn. Playing a single turn every two days is not a major comittment but please, take it seriously.

    And for those worried about time, there it is. Can you handle one turn every two days, taking notes on the most important events of the turn? Early on, yes we'll probably be giving minutiae about building colony ships and each individual new colony and ship and technology. Later on, we'll probably only be mentioning fleets, wars, crucial choke points, diplomacy, and such. Please do not give us lists of what each of your 50 planets built this turn. We do not need to know that Sergetti VI has completed 14 of the 23 mining facilities you queued up 14 turns ago.

    Let's see, I count 3 players including me, and 4 or 5 possible interests. We'll need some of those possible to make it definite or more other people coming in to make this a decent game.
    Last edited by Douglas; 2009-08-24 at 12:08 PM.
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Oh yeah, forgot to mention this earlier: I'm planning on a 48 hour turn time. That means from the moment the turn processes and shows up in your email inbox, you have 48 hours to play before you will be forced to miss the turn. Playing a single turn every two days is not a major comittment but please, take it seriously.
    48 hours Seems Reasonable, (Though, making me even more sure the game will be on for years.)

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Don't worry too much about that, just try to take reasonable technical notes. You could probably find a volunteer to spin a story for you out of them, or you can just post them as is.
    Good To know, Not sure where i would Find a Volunteer Though. So ill have to make due with my own Ability it seems.
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Hmm, count me as interested, though I'd probably be more interested in a SEV game (with a good mod like Balance Mod, of course) than SEIV. I'll have to see how much work my own LP ends up being, but if I can fit it in I'd love to give this a try. I have SEIV installed already, also on steam if that ends up mattering.
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    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aragehaor View Post
    48 hours Seems Reasonable, (Though, making me even more sure the game will be on for years.)
    That's the maximum. If everyone plays faster than that, the game will proceed faster. If by some fluke every player is active at the same time and we all play the turn within an hour, then the server will turn around and give us the next turn right then and there. Ideally the 48 hour limit will never come into play. Even if it does, that's still over 180 turns per year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aragehaor View Post
    Good To know, Not sure where i would Find a Volunteer Though. So ill have to make due with my own Ability it seems.
    Ask for one here?

    Hey, does anyone want to volunteer to turn a player's unembellished notes into a more story-like narrative for the LP?
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Hey, does anyone want to volunteer to turn a player's unembellished notes into a more story-like narrative for the LP?
    I could volunteer, if you'd have me.

    I'd like to join the game itself, but my near-future work schedule will have me on the other side of the country for days at a time, so I'd definitely fail the deadline repeatedly.
    Last edited by Maxymiuk; 2009-08-24 at 12:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    I don't see any reason a specific character should have to post more than just plain notes of what went on, who did it, and what turn it happened in, with maybe a few pictures if they can manage it. If they want to do more, and have the time, they can do that, but I don't think most people will have the time a lot of the time, and requiring that they take more than half an hour each turn will probably just slow the game down more than is reasonable. That said, it'd be great if we had some people, perhaps designated "storytellers", who could elaborate on what other people have done, and write little mini-stories or even a narrative, like Maxy had in his LP. This people of course don't have to be actually playing, so if they want to be involved but can't play, that's probably the best choice.

    As for absences and people leaving, if you think you won't be able to do anything for the next week or so, you can probably just ask someone else (either someone who isn't playing but wants to, or an ally you trust) to play your turns during that time, so it shouldn't be a big deal. The only bad thing would be if someone just up and left with no warning. We could have a rule were, if two of your turns in a row hit the two-day deadline, you automatically forfeit your faction to someone the next person on some waitlist. (Or your faction just capitulates, if nobody wants it )

    Anyways, count me as definitely in, at least at the start. If I do end up not having time, I'll hand my empire over to someone else.
    Last edited by AgentPaper; 2009-08-24 at 12:35 PM.
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    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxymiuk View Post
    I could volunteer, if you'd have me.

    I'd like to join the game itself, but my near-future work schedule will have me on the other side of the country for days at a time, so I'd definitely fail the deadline repeatedly.
    That could work. How much are you willing to volunteer for? Just one player, everyone, or somewhere in between?

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPaper View Post
    As for absences and people leaving, if you think you won't be able to do anything for the next week or so, you can probably just ask someone else (either someone who isn't playing but wants to, or an ally you trust) to play your turns during that time, so it shouldn't be a big deal. The only bad thing would be if someone just up and left with no warning. We could have a rule were, if two of your turns in a row hit the two-day deadline, you automatically forfeit your faction to someone the next person on some waitlist. (Or your faction just capitulates, if nobody wants it )
    We'd have to get a wait list first, but something like that could work. Two turns strikes me as a little low for kicking someone out of the game, though. I think I'd prefer three or four.

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPaper View Post
    Anyways, count me as definitely in, at least at the start. If I do end up not having time, I'll hand my empire over to someone else.
    That makes four players. Anyone else?

    Oh, and please vote on game settings.
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    That could work. How much are you willing to volunteer for? Just one player, everyone, or somewhere in between?
    Somewhere inbetween, probably - I can't make any promises as to what my free time will look like in the next few months.

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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Ask for one here?

    Hey, does anyone want to volunteer to turn a player's unembellished notes into a more story-like narrative for the LP?
    Well Theres That.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maxymiuk
    I could volunteer, if you'd have me.

    I'd like to join the game itself, but my near-future work schedule will have me on the other side of the country for days at a time, so I'd definitely fail the deadline repeatedly.
    I'd like to be one of Those Maxymiuk Writes for, (That is if he doesnt mind Writing for my Empire. )
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    We'd have to get a wait list first, but something like that could work. Two turns strikes me as a little low for kicking someone out of the game, though. I think I'd prefer three or four.


    That makes four players. Anyone else?

    Oh, and please vote on game settings.
    Well, even with just two tries, that's four days over the course of at least a week that they're wasting other people's time, without even a warning that they might not be on the next few days. Though, if we don't have a wait list up, I could see adding another two or so sessions before actually having the faction surrender itself, but I don't think it'll ever really come to that. At worst you'll lose your internet for a week or so, come back, and either beg the person who took over for you to give it back, or wait for another empire to open up.

    Oh, and as for starting, I wouldn't mind controlling 2-3 factions for the early part of the game, and then handing them off to newcomers. The early part of the game is (if my experience from SEV is worth anything) pretty boring and repetitive anyways, and it'd let more people come in later. So, if we start with 6 players and 4-6 "extra" empires controlled by the more experienced players, that'd let us eventually have a 10-12 player game. (though I don't know how many empires we want to have, 10-12 would make for a slowish game)
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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Well, I definitely want to be in. I'll be getting the game first thing monday evening. (Have experience with playing the demo)

    Guess I'll vote already then:

    Quadrant Type:
    3) Galactic Edge

    Quadrant Size
    Depends on players I guess

    Warp Points located anywhere in system
    1) On

    Event Frequence
    3) Medium

    Maximum Event Severity
    4) Catastrophic

    Technology Cost
    2) Medium

    Starting Resources for Player
    2) Medium (20000)

    Home Planet Value
    2) Average

    Number of Starting Planets
    1

    Racial Points for New Players
    3) Medium (3000)

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Oh, forgot to mention: Only option I have any opinion on is Map Type: Cluster. Choke points are fun, and if nothing else it'd be a tribute to Maxy's awesome LP.
    Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.

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    Sanzh's Avatar

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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Well if Sirro is joining, I think I will as well.

    Quadrant Type:
    Cluster

    Quadrant Size
    Large

    Warp Points located anywhere in system
    On

    Event Frequency
    Medium

    Maximum Event Severity
    Catastrophic

    Technology Cost
    Medium

    Starting Resources for Player
    Medium (20000)

    Home Planet Value
    Average

    Number of Starting Planets
    1

    Racial Points for New Players
    High (5000)
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    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
    Douglas's Avatar

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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Six players so far. That's enough to start with, though more would be better. I'll leave recruitment open a bit longer, though if it gets up to 10 I think I'll stop there immediately.

    Two of you have voted "depends on number of players" for quadrant size. That_other_guy and Sirroelivan, please change your votes on the assumption of 6 players and, if you don't vote Large, at what number of players you would change to the next size up.
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  28. - Top - End - #28
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Large is fine for me then.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Eh, I'm in. I dithered far too much with regard to Maxymiuk's game and I never really ended up showing up. I'll cast my votes in a bit, as I'm headed out the door at the moment.

    EDIT: Alright, so it's been more than a bit, but here are my votes:

    Quadrant Type:
    Cluster

    Quadrant Size
    Large

    Warp Points located anywhere in system
    On

    Event Frequency
    None

    Maximum Event Severity
    Medium

    Technology Cost
    Low

    Starting Resources for Player
    High (100000)

    Home Planet Value
    Good

    Number of Starting Planets
    1

    Racial Points for New Players
    High (5000)
    Last edited by Juhn; 2009-08-24 at 07:00 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Let's Play: Space Empires IV multiplayer? (need players)

    Seen this, and recently got SEIV off steam. I'm interested, if not necessairly skilled. (I suspect I'll probably make a nice speedbump for someone else.) ANYWAY,

    So, on to the game settings. Players (and only players) please vote for these:
    Quadrant Type:
    The options are:

    Don't remember what means what. Won't vote.

    Quadrant Size

    Medium



    Warp Points located anywhere in system
    1) On

    Without this option, naturally occurring warp points are restricted to the very edge of systems. With it on, they can be farther in, which leads to (imo) more interesting system layouts and often makes it possible to send reinforcements through your empire in less time.

    Event Frequency

    2) High

    Maximum Event Severity

    4) Catastrophic



    Technology Cost

    2) Medium


    The default and my preference is medium, a parabolic curve. For levels beyond 1 in any given technology, level X costs X*X/2 times the cost of level 1. Low is a linear progression, level X costs X times the cost of level 1. This makes normally very expensive end game technologies far too cheap in my opinion. High is simply double medium, except for the first level. The cost of level 1 of each tech is constant regardless of this setting.

    Starting Resources for Player

    3) High (100000)

    Each player starts with the listed amount of minerals, organics, and radioactives in storage, and also gets that many research points as a bonus on turn 1.

    Home Planet Value

    3) Good

    Bad = resource values near 80%, small planet size. Average = resource values near 100%, medium planet size. Good = resource values near 120%, large planet size. I vote good.

    Number of Starting Planets

    1

    Racial Points for New Players

    4) High (5000)

    Would it be possible to take Deeply Religious (Not planning on it, just curious) if you agreed not to use Religious Talisman/played with mods to that effect? Just curious.
    Last edited by Kane; 2009-08-24 at 10:40 PM.
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