Making a Druid...

[Milskidasith]

Ok, I'm new to druids, and I have no clue where to start with my build, besides taking Natural Spell and increasing wisdom a lot. We are starting at level 3, and it's core only.

My rolled stats are 16, 16, 14, 12, 11, and 10. I'm not sure what to do with the array; I could dump physical stats if I wildshape, but because I'm level 3 I really don't want to gimp myself until I hit level 5.

I'm also not sure what feats to take besides Natural Spell, or what forms are good in core. So I'm hoping you can give me some good advice.

Also, if you link a guide, please make sure you link one that is core only, or at the very least identifies which things are core and which aren't.

[sadi]

Race human? the extra feat and skill point are useful especially if you want to do summons, spellfocus conj allows augment summoning which is decent in core only.

Statwise Wis, Con, whatever, dex if you're happy with your skillpoints, int if not, you don't have a great armor choice without burning a feat (which is not recommended) so I'd stick to some sort of missle weapon/summons/ and spells and stay away from harms way till you hit wildshape.

I'd probably do something like 11 14 16 12 16 10 for stats figuring human, 6 skill points a level should let you cover the skills you want.

[Eldariel]

Summoning is nice in Core. Spell Focus: Conjuration > Augment Summoning. Other than that, some metamagic in Quicken Spell & maybe Extend Spell, and some item crafting in Craft Wondrous Items and maybe Craft Rods and Magic Arms and Armor. Uh, and get Monk's Belt ASAP along with Wild armor (depending on DM reading on whether they work together) and profit.

For forms, you'll first have to figure out how your DM reads "familiar". Deinonychus Dinosaur is awesome on level 5, for example, but may be hard to be familiar in. Other nice options include Leopard, Crocodile and the like. Flyers are obviously handy, as is Baboon. Later you'll get Black Bears and Polar Bears and Dire animals and on 12, Plants (Tendriculous is nice for example, but they're slow so mostly combat forms).


As for animal companion, honestly, go with your heart. Best ones are probably, by levels:
1. Riding Dog (War-Trained)
4. Dire Bat
7. Brown Bear
10. Dire Lion
13. Dire Bear
16. Dire Tiger

Not all trades are obvious and indeed, some prefer to keep the dog all way (grows a bond, etc.).


With your stats, I'd go 16 Wis, 16 Con, 14 Dex, 12 Int, 11 Str, 10 Cha, though it's really matter of preference. The important points are Wis, Con and Dex being high. If you want to go melee, you certainly can by putting 12 to Dex, 16 to Str and 14 to Con. Worse off defensively, but suddenly you can lay down some hurt with Shillelagh empowered Quarterstaff.

And yeah, learn the Summon Nature's Ally-tables; makes life much faster (even better, have some preferred creatures to summon with ready stat sheets. This saves you a lot of time at the table). For a solid handbook (which lists sources for everything), see:
The Druid Handbook


But really, Druids are great 'cause they are hard to screw up. No matter what you'll do, thanks to spontaneous summons and Wildshape, you have the potential to be effective. It's possible to be an ineffective Druid, but that really takes conscious effort.

Just don't forget to equip your animal companion. Some people wonder why they find ACs useless and turns out they didn't even bother to give the boor dog a Barding, let alone buff spells.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

What book access do you have? Core-only is harder than going non-core, due to losing things like Fleshraker and Natural Bond, but doable. Also, the SRD has some very nice stuff in it that's not in the core 3, may deserve a look.

For stats:
Wis 16
Con 16
Dex/Int 14
Dex/Int 12
Str/Cha 11
Str/Cha 10

Take a race with no Wis or Con penalty, preferably a bonus to either of those, or a race with a bonus feat(or a race with some form of telepathy like Ghostwise Halfling). Take a war-trained Riding Dog as your Animal Companion, prepare Entangle and, if you can, Lesser Vigor(SpC), snag Augment Summoning to boost your summons, and let them kill stuff so you don't have to. Natural Bond)CAdv) makes your AC much tougher, but there is some debate on how it interacts with the -3 penalty to Druid level for taking a tougher animal companion. Even without it, trade in your Dog for something better at level 4, either a Croc, Leopard, or if you can, a Fleshraker(MMIII).

[Milskidasith]

So I should probably do something like:

Human Druid 3

Wis 16
Con 16
Int 14 or 12
Dex 12 or 14
Str 11
Cha 10

Feats:

Spell focus: Conj (Human)
Augment Summoning (Level 1)
Natural Spell (Level 3)

Spells used: Entangle, Summon Nature's Ally (which ones are good at low levels?).

Skills: Maxed Spellcraft, Concentration, Knowledge (Nature), Listen, Spot, and Survival or Handle Animal, both if intelligence is 14. Once I hit level 5, abuse the hell out of wildshape and natural spell.

I'm not sure what other feats to take, though. I'm leaning towards focusing on Dex over intelligence, and some Metamagic seems like a good idea.

EDIT: Also, our idea of Core is the online SRD (Not crystalkeep though.). So anything in the d20SRD is fair game.

[sadi]

Natural spell requires wildshape, so you can't take it until level 6, if you're allowed craft, craft wonderous at 3 might not be a bad choice, or maybe extend spell.

I think wolf was best choice for summon 1, summon 2 was crocodile with hippogriph for tacticial options.

[Milskidasith]

Ah, I can't take it at level three. I don't think the DM wants us crafting items, but I'll look into it. Extend Spell is still pretty nice.

Barding is basically armor that works exactly like normal but fits animals, right?

[sadi]

Barding is normal armor thats sized for large creatures, if you're looking at your animal companion, you'll need to get armor proficiency feats for it to wear without the armor check penalties to hit. Your companion does get a new feat for every 3hd it has (including bonus hd for your level)

[Eldariel]

So I should probably do something like:

Human Druid 3

Wis 16
Con 16
Int 14 or 12
Dex 12 or 14
Str 11
Cha 10

Feats:

Spell focus: Conj (Human)
Augment Summoning (Level 1)
Natural Spell (Level 3)

Spells used: Entangle, Summon Nature's Ally (which ones are good at low levels?).

Skills: Maxed Spellcraft, Concentration, Knowledge (Nature), Listen, Spot, and Survival or Handle Animal, both if intelligence is 14. Once I hit level 5, abuse the hell out of wildshape and natural spell.

I'm not sure what other feats to take, though. I'm leaning towards focusing on Dex over intelligence, and some Metamagic seems like a good idea.

You can spontaneously convert Summon Nature's Allys so you don't really need to prepare them. Note that if you're the party healer, you should get party to purchase a bunch of Wand of Cure Light Wounds to heal so you don't need to burn spell slots on that. As a community investment, it's quite cheap per face and being at full HP all the time is invaluable.

As for first level spells, Entangle shines when usable (you can have some potted plants or such along to generate vegetation when needed), Faerie Fire has some excellent uses, Produce Flame can be used for decent filler when not wanting to use more than 1 spell while still doing something and as said, Shillelagh makes you a credible melee threat. That requires high Str though so if you go for high Dex-build, probably a bad idea.

At level 2, Summon Swarm is very useful (especially against opposing casters), Barkskin is excellent defensively, Fog Cloud definitely has its uses (negating Sneak Attacks/AoOs, movement, etc.). And of course, Lesser Restoration is really nice to have when you need such; you can spontaneously convert SNAII so preparing it when not needed doesn't really hurt either.


SNAs are best listed in the handbook I linked. Covering them would be too extensive right now.

Barding is normal armor thats sized for large creatures, if you're looking at your animal companion, you'll need to get armor proficiency feats for it to wear without the armor check penalties to hit. Your companion does get a new feat for every 3hd it has (including bonus hd for your level)

Not true, War-Trained Riding Dog is naturally proficient with armor (as per Animal-entry in MM and SRD - Animals proficient in no armor unless trained for war). Also, Mw. Studded Leather, and Mithril Chain Bardings have no ACP and thus no negative consequences for being unproficient wearer - the usual choice for non-War Trained (higher level) ACs, given that they often have the dexterity to match anyways.

EDIT: Forgot to mention this spell - Soften Earth and Stone is very nasty in the right environment.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Barding is normal armor thats sized for large creatures, if you're looking at your animal companion, you'll need to get armor proficiency feats for it to wear without the armor check penalties to hit. Your companion does get a new feat for every 3hd it has (including bonus hd for your level)

Pick Barding with no ACP, it doesn't have a non-proficiency penalty.

[HCL]

Desert halforc (unearthed arcana), halforc substitution levels (races of destiny)

not exactly sure for feats except for natural spell at level 6 (wildshape is a prerequisite so you can't get it any earlier). The halforc sub level gives you augment summoning for free so you can skip spell focus(conjuration) and go for multiattack, frozen wildshape, frozen summoning.

the 16s go in WIS and CON and the 14 in STR, CHA should be lowest and the DEX and INT placement depends on whether you want the skill points or the early game armor class and initiative (you will get the dex of the form you wildshape into later so I would lean towards putting the 12 in dex)

At level 1 you are just summoning wolves

crocodiles and bears are great for grappling
earth elementals can be good for melding into the dungeon walls and surprising people and scouting around
flyers are good when you need to fly
and the fleshraker is godly

[Milskidasith]

Did you read the thread? I said it was core only, and what little you said that appears to be core has already been mentioned. Also, putting 14 into strength seems a bit of a bad idea when I get Wildshape and don't intend to actually fight in melee until then.

[Eldariel]

Oh, and for skills, you can afford to skip out on Survival, at least beyond the initial 5 ranks (to always know north - even that isn't very essential). Your Wis will eventually grow so high that you'll auto-make almost all checks, and Core lacks some of the better uses of Survival anyways (such as trailblazing). Unless you actually pick up Track, I wouldn't max it out, especially since you can practically always take 10 for sufficient results.

On the other hand, you don't really need more than 4-5 ranks in Handle Animal for your AC either. Only if you plan on focusing on getting other animals would I really max it out (that or if you're interested in pushing animals a lot, especially in combat). Out of combat, you can afford to take 20 in Pushing so all you need is +5 to pull it off. So either way, you can make do with a lower score.


Also, it's worth considering cross-class ranks in skills such as Tumble and Balance as they're useful even in Wildshape (especially in combat) and not having 5 ranks in Balance can be really bad, while having Tumble can be really good. Besides, what's more awesome than a tumbling Bear? Cross-class Sense Motive isn't bad either since you tend to have so high Wis that you can actually beat those Bluff-rolls. And the half-ranks in various Knowledges and few ranks of Speak Language can both be useful.

Lots to do, though beyond Concentration, Spot, Listen and maybe Knowledge: Nature (depending on your DM's exact reading on stuff), you don't need anything. Note that Spellcraft isn't very important to Druids if you have other casters in the party, though it can be nice to have.

[sadi]

Not true, War-Trained Riding Dog is naturally proficient with armor (as per Animal-entry in MM and SRD - Animals proficient in no armor unless trained for war). Also, Mw. Studded Leather, and Mithril Chain Bardings have no ACP and thus no negative consequences for being unproficient wearer - the usual choice for non-War Trained (higher level) ACs, given that they often have the dexterity to match anyways.

EDIT: Forgot to mention this spell - Soften Earth and Stone is very nasty in the right environment.

So you're saying, that by simply stating that you companion is war trained it gets 3 free armor feats?

[Milskidasith]

No, a War Trained Riding Dog is a completely different animal from a regular dog of similar size, as far as I an tell.

[Eldariel]

So you're saying, that by simply stating that you companion is war trained it gets 3 free armor feats?

Some creatures have an entry that war-trained versions exist. Riding Dog is one of these, and Warhorses obviously the others (well, they're already distinct entries).

Such creatures indeed "gain" 3 armor feats for free - more like they took a level of Fighter. But yeah, most creatures lack the option to have "war-trained" versions, which is another feather in Riding Dog's cap.

[sadi]

ninja'd, makes a bit more sense to me now. What didn't make sense is that if you just look at a warhorse you don't see anything about it being able to wear armor, or having the feats.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

No, a War Trained Riding Dog is a completely different animal from a regular dog of similar size, as far as I an tell.

There is only one entry for Riding Dogs, with special rules for ones that are trained for war. Claim your Doberman is war-trained, with a decent Handle Animal, you can justify it.

[Eldariel]

I don't see this different war trained dog, that why I'm confused. All I see is a little paragraph saying if trained for war a riding dog gets trip.

Yeah, that's the key paragraph. It pretty much means that there are war-trained Riding Dogs and they have the exact same stats as all other Riding Dogs except they have the wolf's Trip-attack. Then animal-type has this other benefit.

EDIT: So much ninjaing, I'm just covering it all with this one line.

Also, to OP, do learn at least Sylvan and the elemental languages, 'cause being able to communicate with things you summon is of paramount importance later on when they start having abilities. Handy also to have access to Speak with Animals for the lower level summon communication.

[HCL]

Did you read the thread? I said it was core only, and what little you said that appears to be core has already been mentioned. Also, putting 14 into strength seems a bit of a bad idea when I get Wildshape and don't intend to actually fight in melee until then.

Ah sorry, didnt see the core only part. The 14 in strength assumed you were taking the halforc sub levels in which case you could bully animals using strength instead of charisma for your wild empathy checks and beat people down with a scimitar

If I was doing a core only game I would play a forest gnome. Stat priority would be WIS and CON highest, then DEX INT and CHA (cha affects the gnome spell like abilities, depends on how much you care about those), STR gets dumped

feats would be
Spell Focus Conjuration
Augment Summoning
Natural Spell
Multiattack

After that get your metamagics in no particular order: Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, Empower spell

[Eldariel]

If you pick up 14 Int, Combat Expertise > Improved Trip is actually a nice idea since many great animal forms lack Trip-attack and being able to Claw Claw Bite with Trip + Imp Grab as a bear (and its immense Str-modifier) just rocks.

Improved Grapple is also a decent option, but generally Tripping is better and more sparsely available in good Wildshape forms so I'd probably prioritise it. Also, tripping only counts your Str so you're actually ahead just about anything in Trip-checks, while Grapple cares for BAB too.


Obviously it's worth looking at Power Attack and monstrous feats too though. Monstrous feats offer Multiattack (SRD also has Improved Multiattack under non-epic feats in the epic section) and Flyby Attack. But yeah, I'd probably stick to minimalism here, and as for metamagic, Quicken at 12 is obvious and Extend now is nice, but beyond that I wouldn't take anything.

[Milskidasith]

Ok, so my feats will be (assuming I can't get flaws, which I probably can't): Spell Focus (conj), Augment Summoning, Combat Expertise, Natural Spell, Improved Trip, and then Quicken spell. If I can get flaws in there, I'd like to grab extend spell, but (even if it's mechanically worse) Improved Trip just sounds like a hell of a lot of fun.

[sadi]

I'd definitely, try to get a flaw and take improved trip at 3 and take extend at 9 if you go with both augment summoning and improve trip as your feat options.

[Milskidasith]

Yeah, it seems like I'm either going to need one or the other; plus, combat expertise is really bleh until I can get Improved Trip.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, it seems like I'm either going to need one or the other; plus, combat expertise is really bleh until I can get Improved Trip.

This order seems like the best, honestly. You'll miss out on Multiattack for a while, but overall you'll lose out the least that way.

[HCL]

Anoher advantage of the gnome I forgot to mention is that your gear is small. So if you wildshape into a baboon (at level 5) you can use your club and cast shillelagh and beat people with it without an attack penalty for using an oversized weapon.

[Eldariel]

Anoher advantage of the gnome I forgot to mention is that your gear is small. So if you wildshape into a baboon (at level 5) you can use your club and cast shillelagh and beat people with it without an attack penalty for using an oversized weapon.

...Baboon is medium.

[kamikasei]

Besides which, shillelagh doesn't increase the weapon size, "it deals damage as if it were two size categories larger". You wouldn't take any penalties in the first place.

[Milskidasith]

Ok, my DM is letting us take one flaw. I was thinking of taking unresponsive (the -6 initiative) one, but the one that drops my AC by 1 (hah!) is also a possibility. My feat order will probably be...

Feats by level 3: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Augment Summoning and Spell focus (conj).

Level 6: Natural Spell.

Level 9: Multiattack.

Level 12: Extend or Quicken.

Level 15 (probably not getting that far): The other one or maximize; by this point extend probably isn't necessary.

My DM isn't a huge fan of metamagic (and for good reason; he understands the action economy and how quicken and such can break it.), so I'm saving it for later when the build is pretty much focused on being a really powerful animal with the ability to call really powerful animals with another really powerful animal always there. Animals rule!

[Eldariel]

One flaw to consider is Weak-Willed. Between "Resist Nature's Lure", good Will-save progression and Wisdom-focus, you'll STILL be better off than probably anyone else save for Clerics. And get Quicken Spell at 12. Seriously. It doubles your actions, and even low-level summons can still Aid Another, flank, act as obstacles, etc. (oh, and Animal Growthed they can mean serious business).

Spells like Entangle, Soften Earth, Fog Cloud and company don't lose their utility until Freedom of Movement becomes commonplace either ('cause dungeons exist).


What kind of party is the rest of the party? Any specific things you'd need to cover? Well, of course you're already covering tanking, control, healing & some big skills so it's unlike that you need to cover any more, but just in case.