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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

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    Default Super broken magic item [4e]

    I don't know if this has been posted here before, but check out the Throne of Dominion from the Adventurer's Vault 2.

    (Here's the text:)
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    Throne of Dominion Level 12
    This throne is carved with ornate filigree and reliefs showing a king ruling over subjects that span the chair’s entire surface.
    Wondrous Item 13,000 gp
    Property: While you sit on the throne, when a creature you can see attempts to deceive, disobey, or betray you, it is stunned (save ends). All creatures you can see take a –3 penalty to attack rolls that target your Will.
    Power (Daily Charm): Standard Action. Make an attack: Ranged sight; Charisma + 5 vs. Will; on a hit, the target is dominated until the end of your next turn.


    The broken-ness should be pretty obvious - what happens if the person in the throne orders everyone in the room to "Surrender", "Commit suicide", or (best of all) "Act like you're stunned"? One might argue that this is clearly not an item intended for PCs, but any party with an ounce of creativity will figure out a way to steal the throne and bring it with them. (One obvious solution - Tenser's Floating Disk.)

    Seriously, Wizards, what were you thinking?
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    I'm fairly certain that it's not meant to be portable and that any attempts to move it should be met with a "no" from the gamemaster. It is in the section that is for items for the PCs home base.

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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by kjones View Post
    I don't know if this has been posted here before, but check out the Throne of Dominion from the Adventurer's Vault 2.

    (Here's the text:)
    Spoiler
    Show
    Throne of Dominion Level 12
    This throne is carved with ornate filigree and reliefs showing a king ruling over subjects that span the chair’s entire surface.
    Wondrous Item 13,000 gp
    Property: While you sit on the throne, when a creature you can see attempts to deceive, disobey, or betray you, it is stunned (save ends). All creatures you can see take a –3 penalty to attack rolls that target your Will.
    Power (Daily Charm): Standard Action. Make an attack: Ranged sight; Charisma + 5 vs. Will; on a hit, the target is dominated until the end of your next turn.


    The broken-ness should be pretty obvious - what happens if the person in the throne orders everyone in the room to "Surrender", "Commit suicide", or (best of all) "Act like you're stunned"? One might argue that this is clearly not an item intended for PCs, but any party with an ounce of creativity will figure out a way to steal the throne and bring it with them. (One obvious solution - Tenser's Floating Disk.)

    Seriously, Wizards, what were you thinking?
    Its pretty bad, but easily fixable. Remove disobey from the list of things that stun, jack up the price a bit and leave DM's common sense to sort the rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vortling View Post
    I'm fairly certain that it's not meant to be portable and that any attempts to move it should be met with a "no" from the gamemaster. It is in the section that is for items for the PCs home base.
    As written it still makes anyone invincible in their own home, which is not good.
    Last edited by Boci; 2009-08-25 at 05:02 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Its pretty bad, but easily fixable. Remove disobey from the list of things that stun, jack up the price a bit and leave DM's common sense to sort the rest.
    Of course it's fixable - that's not the point. You could also fix it by making the stun effect an attack vs. will rather than an automatic effect.

    But rather than having to fix my game system, is it too much to ask for it to not have this kind of ridiculous stuff in the first place?
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    If a standard team meets a big bad with that thing, problems could arise.

    But invincibility?
    No.

    Why?
    It gives a -3 to stuff targetting your WILL.
    The fighter can still pound your face in.

    Granted, the stunning is overpowered to an extend, but if you go into some overlord lair and the worst thing that happens to you is STUN the DM is doing it rong.
    Last edited by Dixieboy; 2009-08-25 at 05:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dixieboy View Post
    If a standard team meets a big bad with that thing, problems could arise.

    But invincibility?
    No.

    Why?
    It gives a -3 to stuff targetting your WILL.
    The fighter can still pound your face in.
    Xemnas on the Throne says a command as a free action. Fighter is stunned.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Homeslice View Post
    Xemnas on the Throne says a command as a free action. Fighter is stunned.
    No, I don't even have to explain anything.
    Just, no.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    As written it still makes anyone invincible in their own home, which is not good.
    Unless I'm reading it wrong, it hardly makes you invincible. It's a daily charm that can possibly dominate a single foe for one round; that's powerful, but it's not exactly game-breaking. And, as Vortling pointed out, it's not like the thing is portable.
    Last edited by FoE; 2009-08-25 at 05:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Homeslice View Post
    Xemnas on the Throne says a command as a free action. Fighter is stunned.
    Wizard uses Invisibility and a power that slides. Xemnas is no longer on his Throne, Rogue sits on it and commands Xemnas to stab himself repeatedly. Xemnas is stunned.
    Last edited by Mando Knight; 2009-08-25 at 05:13 PM.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    I guess it wasn't quite obvious enough - let me clarify the broken part.

    While you sit on the throne, when a creature you can see attempts to deceive, disobey, or betray you, it is stunned (save ends).
    Getting people to disobey you is pretty easy. Thus, you can stun people as a free action, as giving an order (talking) is a free action.

    There's basically no way around this, other than immunity to stun - even if you do manage to escape, the throne-sitter can just stun you again the next round.

    The penalty to defense and the charm effect are chump change in comparison.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    Wizard uses Invisibility and a power that slides. Xemnas is no longer on his Throne, Rogue sits on it and commands Xemnas to stab himself repeatedly. Xemnas is stunned.
    Where's that wizard getting the action to cast Invisibility? Xenmas has a sign (or a Magic Mouth, if you're classy) that says "Drop your weapons, don't move or speak" above his throne.
    Last edited by kjones; 2009-08-25 at 05:17 PM.
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by kjones View Post
    Of course it's fixable - that's not the point. You could also fix it by making the stun effect an attack vs. will rather than an automatic effect.

    But rather than having to fix my game system, is it too much to ask for it to not have this kind of ridiculous stuff in the first place?
    If all errors were like that (i.e. blatantly obvious and easily fixable), I would be happy. Yes it is annoying they do not notice these things but its preferable to errors less easy to fix.

  12. - Top - End - #12
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    Wizard uses Invisibility and a power that slides. Xemnas is no longer on his Throne, Rogue sits on it and commands Xemnas to stab himself repeatedly. Xemnas is stunned.
    Its still a problem because now the PCs are abusing it. And wouldn't the BBEG ready an action to talk + have slide resistence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Face Of Evil View Post
    Unless I'm reading it wrong, it hardly makes you invincible. It's a daily charm that can possibly dominate a single foe for one round; that's powerful, but it's not exactly game-breaking. And, as Vortling pointed out, it's not like the thing is portable.
    Thats not the problem. The problem is the auto stun affect.

    BBEG readies an action to orders all PCs to kill themselves as soon as they eter the room.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dixieboy View Post
    No, I don't even have to explain anything.
    Just, no.
    He is just pointing out that that is how it works as written.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjones View Post
    I
    Where's that wizard getting the action to cast Invisibility? Xenmas has a sign (or a Magic Mouth, if you're classy) that says "Drop your weapons, don't move or speak" above his throne.
    I think action points allow it. Not that that justifies it, but there are ways.
    Last edited by Boci; 2009-08-25 at 05:23 PM.

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    Milskidasith's Avatar

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Also, an invis'd wizard would obviously be deceiving him, so he'd still be stunned.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    Also, an invis'd wizard would obviously be deceiving him, so he'd still be stunned.
    Ok, so the fighter tries to bullrush/Tide of Iron him off the throne!

    But wait! The king quickly makes friends with the fighter, thus turning his attack into a savage betrayal, and the fighter is stunned!

    If it weren't so prone to abuse, this throne could yield a lot of hilarity. (Or maybe abuse is just a different kind of hilarity...)
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    You need to be able to see the target, so the invisible wizard wouldn't be stunned.

    Really, any respectable BBEG should have the Throne surrounded by glass walls and ceiling, as you cannot be pulled, pushed or slid through objects.

  16. - Top - End - #16
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by kjones View Post
    Where's that wizard getting the action to cast Invisibility? Xenmas has a sign (or a Magic Mouth, if you're classy) that says "Drop your weapons, don't move or speak" above his throne.
    He planned ahead, casting Invisibility before he entered the room. With Xemnas unable to see him, he is unaffected by the throne's power.

    ...Or if it's a level 26 or higher campaign, the party divine character can revere Bahamut, and summon a bunch of canaries to allow him to bull rush the guy off of his throne anyway...
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  17. - Top - End - #17
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by kjones View Post
    Ok, so the fighter tries to bullrush/Tide of Iron him off the throne!

    But wait! The king quickly makes friends with the fighter, thus turning his attack into a savage betrayal, and the fighter is stunned!

    If it weren't so prone to abuse, this throne could yield a lot of hilarity. (Or maybe abuse is just a different kind of hilarity...)
    This is were you hope your DM can employ common sense. Betrayal means the target must be allied o the BBEG, invisibility does not count as deciete, ect

    Quote Originally Posted by Myshlaevsky View Post
    You need to be able to see the target, so the invisible wizard wouldn't be stunned.
    "Everyone who isn't my minnion kill themselves" still affect an invisible target.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myshlaevsky View Post
    He planned ahead, casting Invisibility before he entered the room. With Xemnas unable to see him, he is unaffected by the throne's power.
    Yes he is. See above. And just because I am curious. are you actually arguing that power wise this item is fine?
    Last edited by Boci; 2009-08-25 at 05:29 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post

    He is just pointing out that that is how it works as written.
    Except it doesn't really work like that.

    I'll go find you a bit that says just why that wouldn't work.
    BRB.

    Edit: Cannot find it, will be back after sleep.
    Last edited by Dixieboy; 2009-08-25 at 05:37 PM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    You're just failing to see the loopholes.

    I would argue that the throne would only affect a traitor if they were serving you to begin with. I can't "betray" someone to whom I never pledged allegiance. It's a great tool for keeping your henchmen in line (Vecna's probably saying "where was this thing when I was alive?"), but unless that group of assassins hired to kill the possessor of the throne were previously on the PC's payroll, I would rule as the DM that the throne is useless against them. Ditto for that mob of marauding orcs who just broke into the palace or ragtag bunch of rebels out to depose a ruthless tyrant.

    I suppose they could still lie to you, but I wouldn't rely on the trolls currently circling your throne suddenly confessing that they'd rather be knitting.
    Last edited by FoE; 2009-08-25 at 05:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    The thing is, it says "disobey" not "betray." Disobey can mean not obeying you at all.

    I wonder how this interacts with scrying or other ways to "see" people. It would make a great method of DM railroading; the guy on the throne is constantly scrying the party and if they go off the rails, BOOM, stunned. :P

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by Face Of Evil View Post
    You're just failing to see the loopholes.

    I would argue that the throne would only affect a traitor if they were serving you to begin with. I can't "betray" someone whose allegiance I never recognized. Therefore, it's a great tool for keeping your henchmen in line, but unless that group of assassins hired to kill me or mob of marauding orcs who just broke into the palace were previously on my payroll, I would rule that the throne is useless against them.

    I suppose they could still lie to you, but I wouldn't rely on the trolls currently circling your throne suddenly confessing that they'd rather be knitting.
    "Disobey" is much harder to work around though.

    The Throne of Dominion is definitely a broken item, but it's easily fixable. Even in with it in an unfixed state it's possible to overcome it with invisibility and stealth.

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Aren't there methods to detect invisibility pretty easily?

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by Myshlaevsky View Post
    "Disobey" is much harder to work around though.

    The Throne of Dominion is definitely a broken item, but it's easily fixable. Even in with it in an unfixed state it's possible to overcome it with invisibility and stealth.
    Its very vague though. If I have writting on the wall commanding you to not harm me and you do, have you disobeyed me? Or do I have to voice it?

  24. - Top - End - #24
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    Milskidasith's Avatar

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    The magic knows, even if you don't. It's magic.

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    "Everyone who isn't my minnion kill themselves" still affect an invisible target.
    No, it doesn't, unless he can see through invisibility.

    Property: While you sit on the throne, when a creature you can see attempts to deceive, disobey, or betray you, it is stunned (save ends).
    (Emphasis mine)

    Thus, if he can't see you, you can kill him. Ways to do this include blinding him, using invisibility, knocking him unconscious...

    ...Ooh! Invisibility + Orb of Ultimate Imposition + Sleep.
    Last edited by Mando Knight; 2009-08-25 at 05:33 PM.
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  26. - Top - End - #26
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    The ability to give out orders implies authority. A parent can order a child, a master can order a servant and a commander can order a solider. But authority is just an illusion. No one can truly command another person's allegiance unless they allow it.

    Also, the Invisibility trick works as advertised.
    Last edited by FoE; 2009-08-25 at 05:38 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by Face Of Evil View Post
    The ability to give out orders implies authority. A parent can order a child, a master can order a servant and a commander can order a solider. The king has no authority over the assassin who's come to slit his throat.
    You're reading into things in an effort to say this isn't broken. It is. Nothing in the rules supports this definition of disobedience regarding the Throne of Dominion.

    This is the kind of thing I would institute where I to give it to a BBEG in one of my games. I'd have it conditional on a pledge of obediance or similar act.

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    No, it doesn't, unless he can see through invisibility.

    (Emphasis mine)

    Thus, if he can't see you, you can kill him. Ways to do this include blinding him, using invisibility, knocking him unconscious...

    ...Ooh! Invisibility + Orb of Ultimate Imposition + Sleep.
    Okay I missread that, but the item is srill broken, because there is a way to get around it, assuming invisibility is used. This is problomatic on so many levels. The wizard has to cast invisibility, and it must remain intact. What if you do not know invisibility?

    You cannot honestly argue that a 13K item that makes you auto win unless the enemy takes specific actions is balanced in any way shape or form. Name an equally powerful example.
    Last edited by Boci; 2009-08-25 at 05:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Bring your own chair. Problem solved.

    ...

    Okay, problem amplified. But it's not your problem anymore.
    • Chameleon Base Class [3.5]/[PF]: A versatile, morphic class that mimics one basic party role (warrior, caster, sneak, etc) at a time. If you find yourself getting bored of any class you play too long, the Chameleon is for you!
    • Warlock Power Sources [3.5]: Making Hellfire Warlock part of the base class and providing other similar options for Warlocks whose powers don't come from devils.

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    Default Re: Super broken magic item [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Okay I missread that, but the item is srill broken, because there is a way to get around it, assuming invisibility is used. This is problomatic on so many levels. The wizard has to cast invisibility, and it must remain intact. What if you do not know invisibility?
    You fill the room with smoke. Any number of things. It's not broken.

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