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Thread: Epic Moments

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    Default Heroic Moments

    Heroic Moments

    Trinity: How did you do that?
    Neo: Do what?
    Trinity: You moved like they do. I've never seen anyone move that fast.
    Neo: Wasn't fast enough.
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    Heroic moments are similar to criticals/fumbles, in so much as a special die roll is needed to invoke one. How they differ is that unlike criticals/fumbles, that die roll is not on the extremes, but at the point of failure/success. That's what makes them heroic, too; the fact that character has walked the edge of a knife and succeeded.

    Heroic Moments
    You have learned to push yourself to the edge, and make the most of every moment. Blows your opponents expect to miss still hit, the shock causing them to stare in confusing for a brief moment. Your reflexes are beyond prediction. Your presence of mind opens up tactical options when resisting your enemy's tricks.
    Prerequisites: Character Level 6
    Benefits: The Heroic Moments feat enables several new opportunities, each of which requires your roll to equal the required roll for success.

    Heroic Strike: Whenever your attack roll is equal to your opponent's AC and he takes damage from your attack, he also becomes dazed for 1 round.

    Heroic Dodge: Whenever an attack roll fails against your AC by 1(if your AC is 30, the roll must be 29), it is considered an heroic dodge. Whenever you make an heroic dodge against an attack from an opponent that you threaten, that opponent provokes an AoO from you. Whenever you make an heroic dodge against an opponent whom you don't threaten(or you choose to not use your AoO against that foe), you gain a +5 to AC against attacks made by that opponent until the end of their next turn. This effect is cumulative.

    Heroic save: Whenever you make a save by matching the DC, its an heroic save. Whenever you make a heroic save against an ability that would ordinarily prevent you from attacking, the caster of that spell can not take actions against you and is considered flatfooted against you until the end of your next turn.

    Special: Fighters may take this a bonus feat.
    Special: Heroic Moments can be used in place of Dodge to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. If you already have Dodge when you select Heroic Moments, you can choose to lose the Dodge feat and gain a new feat in its place. You must meet the prerequisite for
    the new feat.
    Last edited by Godskook; 2009-10-01 at 03:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Epic Moments

    I think you should find a different name. I feel wrong taking them before level 20 this way.


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    Default Re: Epic Moments

    i too would change the name so as to avoid confusion with level 21+ games. also, the wording on the second feat is confusing.

    Whenever you make an epic dodge against an attack that is in your AoO range, that opponent provokes an AoO from you.
    change that, to something like this:

    "Whenever you make an epic dodge against an opponent that you threaten, that opponent provokes an AoO from you."
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    Default Re: Epic Moments

    Yeah, I didn't know of any better way to label them aside from epic. Maybe I'll go look up a thesaurus or something.

    Also, fixed the second feat.
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    Default Re: Epic Moments

    Glorious... Unreal... Heroic... Insane... Fatefull Dodge/Attack...

    I'm sure you could think of some other adjectives. Yeah, it sounds cool with the word of "epic" in it, but it also makes the characters sound more... epic... than they actually are. What happens when they start to get to a higher level? There's nothing better than epic...
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    Default Re: Epic Moments

    They seem very niche to me, as how often can you really expect to hit exactly or be missed by exactly 1? I'd give a range of numbers, honestly, sort of like a crit range, so that these actually occur. What to base it off of, I have no idea.

    I'd move to change the name to Critical Strike and Critical Dodge, which means similar but I suppose that can be just as confusing with the game terms, though less so than having them called Epic without requiring Epic levels to take.

    EDIT: Ninja'd by Lycan with the better adjective. C'est la vie.
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2009-08-26 at 01:46 PM.
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    Default Re: Epic Moments

    I think these would both function better as mere house rules, filling a similar niche to criticals--adding excitement and style.

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    Default Re: Epic Moments

    I agree with Zovc. While I like the idea, no-one would want to spend a feat on these.
    Last edited by Elfin; 2009-08-26 at 03:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elvenblade View Post
    While I like the idea, no-one would want to spend a feat on these.
    Yeah, that's what I was trying to say.

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    Default Re: Epic Moments

    Rename them as Uber, and have the range for Uber Strike be based off your stat modifier to your to hit (if you hit with your Strength bonus or lower for melee, Dexterity for ranged ranged doesn't threaten, does it?) and have the range for Uber Dodge be based of your Dexterity modifier to AC. Modified by Max Dex of course.
    Last edited by The Dark Fiddler; 2009-08-26 at 03:46 PM.
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    Default Re: Epic Moments

    I tend to agree with the "houserule" idea. If you really want to keep them as a feat, I think you might need to roll a bunch of them into one. Otherwise, it just wouldn't be worthwhile for a PC to take.

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    Default Re: Epic Moments

    Heroic Moments
    You have learned to push yourself to the edge, and make the most of every moment. Blows your opponents expect to miss still hit, the shock causing them to stare in confusing for a brief moment. Your reflexes are beyond prediction. Your presence of mind opens up tactical options when resisting your enemy's tricks.
    Prerequisites: Character Level 6
    Benefits: The Heroic Moments feat enables several new opportunities, each of which requires your roll to equal the required roll for success.
    Heroic Strike: Whenever your attack roll is equal to your opponent's AC and he takes damage from your attack, he also becomes stunned for 1 round.
    Heroic Dodge: Whenever an attack roll fails against your AC by 1(if your AC is 30, the roll must be 29), it is considered an heroic dodge. Whenever you make an heroic dodge against an attack from an opponent that you threaten, that opponent provokes an AoO from you. Whenever you make an heroic dodge against an opponent whom you don't threaten(or you choose to not use your AoO against that foe), you gain a +5 to AC against attacks made by that opponent until your turn. This effect is cumulative.
    Heroic save: Whenever you make a save by matching the DC, its an heroic save. Whenever you make a heroic save against a spell that would ordinarily prevent you from attacking, the caster of that spell is considered flatfooted against you until the end of your turn.
    Special: Fighters may take this a bonus feat.
    Look any better?

    --------------------------------

    Also, part of the reason I don't want to make it a house rule is that this is something inspired by main characters, heroes, and its not something that every two-bit character should be walking around with. To sum up, O-Chul has it, Miko doesn't. That leaves only two design areas to put it in. Either its a feat, or its a class feature. Since I don't have enough inspiration for a class, I'm left with a feat(Besides, part of the design goal is to make it class inspecific).
    Last edited by Godskook; 2009-08-29 at 09:59 PM.
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    Default Re: Epic Moments

    Quote Originally Posted by Salvonus View Post
    I tend to agree with the "houserule" idea. If you really want to keep them as a feat, I think you might need to roll a bunch of them into one. Otherwise, it just wouldn't be worthwhile for a PC to take.
    The feat as written looks pretty powerful actually...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    The feat as written looks pretty powerful actually...
    I just changed it from 2 feats to 1, and added what would've originally been a third feat. I updated the first post to reflect the newest version.
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    Default Re: Epic Moments

    Powerful? It requires an exact roll on a d20 (5% chance at best, if it's even possible) for an effect that is generally very minimal.

    As written, it's still not particularly good.

    As an example, Epic dodge allowing you to make an AoO is a 5% chance. Robiler's Gambit allows you to always take an AoO on people attacking you 100% of the time. The other minimal benefits of the heroic thing just aren't worth the rarity it's useful.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2009-08-29 at 09:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Epic Moments

    Heroic Moments
    You have learned to push yourself to the edge, and make the most of every moment. Blows your opponents expect to miss still hit, the shock causing them to stare in confusing for a brief moment. Your reflexes are beyond prediction. Your presence of mind opens up tactical options when resisting your enemy's tricks.
    Prerequisites: Character Level 6
    Benefits: The Heroic Moments feat enables several new opportunities, each of which requires your roll to equal the required roll for success.
    Heroic Strike: Whenever your attack roll is equal to your opponent's AC and he takes damage from your attack, he also becomes stunned for 1 round and takes damage as if you had hit him with a critical with a +2 to your critical multiplier, and (if applicable) the save for massive damage is increased by your character level.
    Heroic Dodge: Whenever an attack roll fails against your AC by 1(if your AC is 30, the roll must be 29), it is considered an epic dodge. Whenever you make an epic dodge against an attack from an opponent that you threaten, that opponent provokes an AoO from you that automatically succeeds as a critical hit. Whenever you make an epic dodge against an opponent whom you don't threaten(or you choose to not use your AoO against that foe), you become completely immune to all attacks and actions made by that opponent until your next round, and any action they take in an area you threatened provokes an AoO that does not count against your AoO total for the round, even if the action normally does not provoke an AoO (including casting quickened spells, moving towards you, or attacking you again).
    Heroic save: Whenever you make a save by matching the DC, its an epic save. Whenever you make a heroic save against any spell, the caster is stunned for Spell Level rounds (even if they are immune to stunning) and all attacks you make against them are considered critical hits. Up to 1d4+1 buffs on the caster are dispelled at random (no check required).
    Special: Fighters may take this a bonus feat.
    This new version is usable; it allows you to get some absurd, almost encounter defining powers if you get an absurdly close roll.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2009-08-29 at 10:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Epic Moments

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    This new version is usable; it allows you to get some absurd, almost encounter defining powers if you get an absurdly close roll.
    Ugh. That really looks disassociated from the flavor I'm shooting for.
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    Default Re: Epic Moments

    I'm not sure what the flavor is; you get something really epic to happen when you walk at the knifes edge. Getting "I attack normally after dodging a quarter of an inch from death" seems like far less of an epic moment than "I really, really hurt this guy after barely escaping with my life."

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    I don't have much input besides a cool quote I think that fits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    I'm not sure what the flavor is; you get something really epic to happen when you walk at the knifes edge. Getting "I attack normally after dodging a quarter of an inch from death" seems like far less of an epic moment than "I really, really hurt this guy after barely escaping with my life."
    Because to me, epic isn't 'I obliterate the other guy by so much that he can't possibly respond'(It can be, I guess, but not in a way relevant to this feat). It is more like 'victory and defeat are mere sides of the razor blade, and I've managed to tilt it to my favor'.

    Look at the examples given. Neo is dodging bullets, but barely(unlike later on) and not stopping them midair(even later on). Some of the most interesting fighting, imho, of the trilogy happens as Neo begins his ascension and demonstrates 'just barely cutting it' abilities. After the first movie, watching him fight in the matrix is comparatively boring, since the emphasis is far more 'overpowered' than anything else.

    In the Bleach example, Ichigo(while he admittedly outmatches the lieutenants, he's playing at a disadvantage) is nearly hit by the fencer dude.

    I guess its hard to explain, but I'd rather raise the power of the feat by increasing the number of areas where it gives a bonus rather than doing too much to increase the bonus given from the individual effects.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    This new version is usable; it allows you to get some absurd, almost encounter defining powers if you get an absurdly close roll.
    That version looks pretty good; otherwise, it really is too weak.
    Last edited by Elfin; 2009-08-29 at 10:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    Because to me, epic isn't 'I obliterate the other guy by so much that he can't possibly respond'(It can be, I guess, but not in a way relevant to this feat). It is more like 'victory and defeat are mere sides of the razor blade, and I've managed to tilt it to my favor'.

    Look at the examples given. Neo is dodging bullets, but barely(unlike later on) and not stopping them midair(even later on). Some of the most interesting fighting, imho, of the trilogy happens as Neo begins his ascension and demonstrates 'just barely cutting it' abilities. After the first movie, watching him fight in the matrix is comparatively boring, since the emphasis is far more 'overpowered' than anything else.

    In the Bleach example, Ichigo(while he admittedly outmatches the lieutenants, he's playing at a disadvantage) is nearly hit by the fencer dude.

    I guess its hard to explain, but I'd rather raise the power of the feat by increasing the number of areas where it gives a bonus rather than doing too much to increase the bonus given from the individual effects.
    That's the thing; no matter how many advantages you add in, when they are all worse than existing feats in both terms of what they do and the fact that it's incredibly inconsistent, this feat is going to be terrible.

    Just make it a LA 0 template you give your heroes for doing particularly heroic things, maybe even for only making it on the cutting edge once or twice. A feat with a 5% chance of doing anything is only going to be useful as a prerequisite for something good or on builds where that 5% increase can be stacked with other things to make it really good.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2009-08-29 at 10:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    That's the thing; no matter how many advantages you add in, when they are all worse than existing feats in both terms of what they do and the fact that it's incredibly inconsistent, this feat is going to be terrible.

    Just make it a LA 0 template you give your heroes for doing particularly heroic things, maybe even for only making it on the cutting edge once or twice. A feat with a 5% chance of doing anything is only going to be useful as a prerequisite for something good or on builds where that 5% increase can be stacked with other things to make it really good.
    Well, I was thinking of a improved heroics feat, which would work similarly to improved critical.

    Also, a 5% bonus, admittedly doesn't seem like much, but compare it to the ever-horrible feat dodge or even its upgrade from ToB(speaking of which, I've been meaning to give this a 'counts as dodge' addition). This is applies to more rolls, and the bonus when applicable is greater. Sure, this isn't on par with things like metamagic feats, but I don't really think that's possible without invoking extreme forms of magic. In its current form, it is provably better than some existing feats, but worse than others. It may still need a power boost to be viable, but I'm not off what things currently are.

    The heroic dodge feature does need a boost when not provoking an AoO though, since as written, it doesn't actually help too much, but I'm not sure how to do it in a way to fit the theme.

    Finally, I like the template idea, but the problem with that is that would relegate this to only games I DM(rather than play), since most DMs are against giving the players bonuses for no cost.
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    Default Re: Epic Moments

    Actually, if the villains also got it, it would benefit them more than the players, since in the course of a campaign the PCs will get hit more than any villain.

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    See, the thing is, being better than crappy feats nobody else will ever take isn't an accomplishment. This feat is a crappy feat nobody will ever take, it's just (slightly) better than other really terrible feats; if they want the AoO for people attacking, they'll take Robiler's gambit, if they want to stun people with attacks they'll just take warblade levels (They have something that does that, right? I could have sworn I saw it somewhere), and if they want to make spellcasters flat footed (which isn't very useful anyway) then... I don't know how to do it, but it isn't exactly useful anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    if they want to stun people with attacks they'll just take warblade levels (They have something that does that, right? I could have sworn I saw it somewhere)
    Not that I've found(just looked), unless its a maneuver, which isn't really comparable. Most comparable thing is stunning fist, that I can think of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    and if they want to make spellcasters flat footed (which isn't very useful anyway) then... I don't know how to do it, but it isn't exactly useful anyway.
    Sneak attack. Easier guaranteed power attack against a foe denied their dex bonus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    Not that I've found(just looked), unless its a maneuver, which isn't really comparable. Most comparable thing is stunning fist, that I can think of.



    Sneak attack. Easier guaranteed power attack against a foe denied their dex bonus.
    Stunning can be done by a load of things. Granted, most of the things I can think of need a save (and I guess Warblades don't have a stunning attack), but a save is better than a 5% chance of something actually working.

    As for the sneak attack thing: It's a 5% chance that, for one round, you can get a wizard to lose their dex bonus to AC. While a -2 or -3 to AC isn't terrible, a wizard generally won't even be in range to be hit by you.

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    Improved Heroics
    Your heroics have pushed to new heights.
    Prerequisites: Heroic Moments
    Benefits: Your threat range for heroic rolls is increased by 2. You also gain +1 to all saves, to AC, and to attack rolls.
    Special: Fighters may take this a bonus feat.
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    But see, there would be no reason to invest in two feats for this. Maybe roll this into the first feat...but otherwise, there are enormously better uses of two precious feat slots.
    And feat slots really are precious; there's no room to waste any.
    Last edited by Elfin; 2009-08-30 at 12:16 AM.

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    Default Re: Epic Moments

    Wow, feats sure have improved in value!

    Heroic strike:
    A 5% chance to stun an opponent on any attack roll; and it will almost never occur on a critical, so you have less chance of wasting the effect. (Target misses next turn and drops object held).

    I would have thought that would be good enough for a feat on its own, particularly for a monk.

    Heroic dodge: somewhat less useful

    Heroic Save: Caster SoD's you with a 9th level spell. Totally worth it just to have them standing around for 9 rounds waiting for you to wail on them. Of course they'll just contingency teleport, so maybe not so good.


    Edit:
    Seriously, improved heroics is a waste of a feat? These two feats mean you only need 7 attacks to get an average of over 1 stun per round. The only problem is that the feat is going to be self-nerfing because of the ease with which a party with two characters with these feats could stun-lock any boss that hasn't got immunity to stun.

    Edit 2: Actually, the heroic defense can be better than the 'gambit'. Sure, you don't get the 100% chance of an attack of opportunity, but you don't get the associated drawbacks either, and against multiple enemies with large numbers of attacks the 5% chances stack up.

    Question: If a dragon attacks you with an attack bonus that exceeds your AC and rolls a 1, do you still get the benefit of the feat? If so, not only have you stopped 2-5 other attacks, but you have gotten a free attack as well. Simmilarly with the attack rolls, does a character still get the stun chance for an attack that only hits because of the natural 20 rule?
    Last edited by Rainbownaga; 2009-08-31 at 05:09 AM.

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