Tome of Battle: Maneuvers and Stances, and all that jazz

[PumpkinEater]

Okay, I was just introduced to the Tome of Battle, and, as I was told, it seems like one of WoTC's better books. It all looks very interesting, but it's also kinda confusing. I was just wondering if any of you could give me a quick summary about it? I understand a few things, like how stances can be active as long as you're conscious, or how each martial whatever class has a different way of recovering maneuvers, but... there are a few things I still don't quite get. Like, are you allowed to pick from maneuvers, etc. from different disciplines like a wizard is able to choose from different unrestricted schools of magic?

[Mongoose87]

Okay, I was just introduced to the Tome of Battle, and, as I was told, it seems like one of WoTC's better books. It all looks very interesting, but it's also kinda confusing. I was just wondering if any of you could give me a quick summary about it? I understand a few things, like how stances can be active as long as you're conscious, or how each martial whatever class has a different way of recovering maneuvers, but... there are a few things I still don't quite get. Like, are you allowed to pick from maneuvers, etc. from different disciplines like a wizard is able to choose from different unrestricted schools of magic?

The Martial Adept class you belong to determines the maneuvers you may choose.

[Hat-Trick]

It's a melee casting system. I know, it's initiator levels and martial adepts, but a casting system by any other name is a casting system. Basically it's for caster lovers who want to do melee.

Anyway, answering questions:

Different martial adepts classes can learn from different disciplines. Swordsages are the only ones with access to Desert Wind, Setting Sun, and Shadow Hand. Warblades are the only ones with access to Iron Heart and Crusaders hold Devoted Spirit as their own. Every one of them has access to Stone Dragon. Diamond mind is shared by swordsages and warblades, and White raven is only for Crusaders and Warblades.

Initiator level is determined by adding the levels in one martial adept class together with half of all other levels. Example is fighter 4/warblade 2 equals warblade 4 for what maneuvers and stances he has access to.

... Blarg.

[PId6]

It's a melee casting system. I know, it's initiator levels and martial adepts, but a casting system by any other name is a casting system. Basically it's for caster lovers who want to do melee.

They're similar in structure and in the number of options a character can perform, but the execution ends up feeling very different. For one thing, having your maneuvers usable per encounter rather than per day and refreshable makes things wholly different from the X/day vancian casting. If by "caster lover" you mean anyone who doesn't want to just say "I full attack" every round, then yes, call me caster lover.

But back to the OP, the automatic maneuvers and stances gotten by the three martial adept classes (crusader, swordsage, warblade) are based on the class themselves. Crusaders pick from Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, and White Raven disciplines. Swordsages pick from Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw. And warblades have Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven.

You can also take the feat "Martial Study" to receive any maneuver from any discipline, as long as you have the prerequisites for it. "Martial Stance" does the same thing for stances. Even non-martial adept classes, like the normal fighter, can take Martial Study and Martial Stance, as long as their initiator level is high enough to take the maneuver/stance they want and they qualify for the prerequisites of the maneuver/stance.

[Godskook]

Basically it's for caster lovers who want to do melee.

Actually, its for melee lovers who don't want to be casters.

[Draz74]

Okay, I was just introduced to the Tome of Battle, and, as I was told, it seems like one of WoTC's better books. It all looks very interesting, but it's also kinda confusing. I was just wondering if any of you could give me a quick summary about it? I understand a few things, like how stances can be active as long as you're conscious, or how each martial whatever class has a different way of recovering maneuvers, but... there are a few things I still don't quite get. Like, are you allowed to pick from maneuvers, etc. from different disciplines like a wizard is able to choose from different unrestricted schools of magic?

The most confusing thing to work through in the book is that sometimes Stances count as maneuvers, sometimes they don't. Usually, they don't. But as prerequisites for other maneuvers, they do. (Most higher-level maneuvers require a certain number of maneuvers known from the same Discipline as a prerequisite, to force characters to focus somewhat on a limited selection of disciplines.)

Any other questions? Did other posters adequately clear up the confusion over Discipline selection options for you?

[Dienekes]

Meaningless quibbles.

It is a system that allows the use of abilities and simply for design and balancing purposes limits the amount of abilities that are usable in some way. This sort of system is used in numerous classes even in Core dnd by saying a certain ability can only be used x times per day.

It has its pros and cons but offers martial characters much needed flexibility even if it does break some peoples suspension of disbelief by claiming that a honed warrior can only use his muscles in a certain way once a battle.

Though, calling it "Blade Magic" in the maneuver section probably wasn't helping curb the angry melee lovers from bashing the system.

[Frosty]

Meaningless quibbles.

It is a system that allows the use of abilities and simply for design and balancing purposes limits the amount of abilities that are usable in some way. This sort of system is used in numerous classes even in Core dnd by saying a certain ability can only be used x times per day.

It has its pros and cons but offers martial characters much needed flexibility even if it does break some peoples suspension of disbelief by claiming that a honed warrior can only use his muscles in a certain way once a battle.

Though, calling it "Blade Magic" in the maneuver section probably wasn't helping curb the angry melee lovers from bashing the system.

They can basj it all they want, and they can stew with their Fighters while I enjoy versatility.

[Fishy]

The most confusing thing to work through in the book is that sometimes Stances count as maneuvers, sometimes they don't. Usually, they don't. But as prerequisites for other maneuvers, they do. (Most higher-level maneuvers require a certain number of maneuvers known from the same Discipline as a prerequisite, to force characters to focus somewhat on a limited selection of disciplines.)

Hunh? I thought Stances always counted as Maneuvers, they just don't count as Strikes, Boosts or Counters.

[Mongoose87]

They can basj it all they want, and they can stew with their Fighters while I enjoy versatility.

Meanwhile,we dip their precious fighters and steal their bonus feats!

[Draz74]

Hunh? I thought Stances always counted as Maneuvers, they just don't count as Strikes, Boosts or Counters.

No. For example, when your class gains a new Maneuver Known, you can't learn a Stance. (For that, you need to gain a new Stance Known.) Likewise, you can't swap a Stance out at an even-numbered level, or learn one via Martial Study, or learn one via magic item.

[Elfin]

I can't really add much to what the others have said, but I just wanted to congratulate you on adding ToB to your repetoire. It's a great book, and a blast to play.

[Tempest Fennac]

Also, stances are different to maneuvers due to being active perminantly, unless you change the one you're using (I agree with Elvenblade about the book being excellent as well).

[lsfreak]

No. For example, when your class gains a new Maneuver Known, you can't learn a Stance. (For that, you need to gain a new Stance Known.) Likewise, you can't swap a Stance out at an even-numbered level, or learn one via Martial Study, or learn one via magic item.

And then they do count for the purpose of prerequisites and Discipline weapon enhancements, but not martial scripts. Confusion!

[PumpkinEater]

Thank you all! =D

That was very helpful indeed.

I have just one last, meaningless question. Why do the pages of this book have such a cool background? Because that's what caught my eye at first. "Wow, the pages look cool!"

[PId6]

It's the same with Tome of Magic. I guess they just wanted something different for the "Tome" series.

Though, I should say, disclaimer: Tome of Magic is not nearly as good as ToB. The binder is cool, but the other two are nearly worthless.

[Tempest Fennac]

I never noticed that background until now. What is the symbol a reference to, if it's not just a random coat-of-arms-type thing?

[Kaiyanwang]

Though, I should say, disclaimer: Tome of Magic is not nearly as good as ToB. The binder is cool, but the other two are nearly worthless.

I've not experience with the "dreaded" Truenamer (even if I think a REAL optimizer can make a good one) but if the campaign is not so high-power, shadocaster can make some point.

We use it currently in a (paradoxically) low powered gestalt campaing. It's a "Rokugan scorpion clan" flavoured Shadocaster // Shugenja specialized in heal and control and it's a blast.

[sofawall]

I've not experience with the "dreaded" Truenamer (even if I think a REAL optimizer can make a good one)

It's called Pun-Pun.

Anyway, yeah, Item Familiars and Custom Skillboost Items make it workable, but still very weak.

[PId6]

Anyway, yeah, Item Familiars and Custom Skillboost Items make it workable, but still very weak.

Until you get to the fun no XP cost at-will Gate ability at level 20...

Truenamer's just a big bag of laughs.

[sofawall]

Oh, right, forgot about that.

Ok, weak until level 20.

[AslanCross]

I never noticed that background until now. What is the symbol a reference to, if it's not just a random coat-of-arms-type thing?

It's a stylized "D&D" symbol.

[lsfreak]

There's a few simple ways of making shadowcaster better (the writer's fixes found here and giving extra mysteries that don't fount towards bonus feats; Descent of Shadows in the Homebrew section is a complete re-outfit), and they're a better Truenaming system in the Homebrew section of the forums.

[Sinfire Titan]

Meanwhile,we dip their precious fighters and steal their bonus feats!

Warblades sappin your bonus feats? More likely than you think...

[9mm]

My biggest complaint with ToB is the distinct lack of boosts (the maneuver type), but overall it's quite useful, even if your not playing a ToB class.

[Person_Man]

It's also worth mentioning that the Tome of Battle is the basis for 4E, because ToB created the "per encounter" mechanic. Anywho, there are basically 4 different power models:

1) Daily: You have X powers, which you can use Y times per day. Examples: Spells, Rage, Smite, Stunning Fist.

2) Recharge: You have X powers. You can use each power whenever you want, but after you use it, you have to recharge it through some mechanic. Examples: Psionic Focus, most breath weapons, Tome of Battle, a few prestige classes, and a lot of homebrew work.

3) Pool: You have a limited power pool which only refills once per day. You can fuel all (or most) of your class abilities using this one pool, but when it runs out, you're out of power. Examples: Bardic music, Psionics, Factotum, spell points, a lot of Pathfinder.

4) Continuous: You can use any power whenever you want. Examples: Feats, Binder, Incarnum, Invocations.

When you look at a class, this is the first thing you should figure out about it. Continuous is the most powerful if your DM is fond of marathon game days. Daily powers are the most useful if the DM rarely railroads you with a beat the clock or trapped in a dungeon scenarios, as Daily powers tend to be written as the most powerful and you can always just retreat from a dungeon/castle/town/whatever, sleep, and return with your Daily powers recharged after every 1-2 combats.

[tonberrian]

You'll notice that the background of the pages in the Tome of Battle is the same as that in the Binder section of the Tome of Magic, the best part of that book. Coincidence? I think not.

[Hijax]

Meanwhile,we dip their precious fighters and steal their bonus feats!

meanwhile, we watch your shapr-stick poking of malevolent creatures from our private demiplanes, and laugh.

[olentu]

It's also worth mentioning that the Tome of Battle is the basis for 4E, because ToB created the "per encounter" mechanic. Anywho, there are basically 4 different power models:

1) Daily: You have X powers, which you can use Y times per day. Examples: Spells, Rage, Smite, Stunning Fist.

2) Recharge: You have X powers. You can use each power whenever you want, but after you use it, you have to recharge it through some mechanic. Examples: Psionic Focus, most breath weapons, Tome of Battle, a few prestige classes, and a lot of homebrew work.

3) Pool: You have a limited power pool which only refills once per day. You can fuel all (or most) of your class abilities using this one pool, but when it runs out, you're out of power. Examples: Bardic music, Psionics, Factotum, spell points, a lot of Pathfinder.

4) Continuous: You can use any power whenever you want. Examples: Feats, Binder, Incarnum, Invocations.

When you look at a class, this is the first thing you should figure out about it. Continuous is the most powerful if your DM is fond of marathon game days. Daily powers are the most useful if the DM rarely railroads you with a beat the clock or trapped in a dungeon scenarios, as Daily powers tend to be written as the most powerful and you can always just retreat from a dungeon/castle/town/whatever, sleep, and return with your Daily powers recharged after every 1-2 combats.

I will note that rage is for some reason limited to only once per encounter.

[Kaiyanwang]

I will note that rage is for some reason limited to only once per encounter.

You are right. Actually, the first time a "per encounter" mechanic came, was in 3.0 PH I guess..