(3.5) [Discipline] Falling Anvil v.2 (P.E.A.C.H.)

[industrious]

You still don't have Paper Thin Disguise up. Moving Duck Season/Rabbit Season to the tactical maneuver was a really good idea.

[DracoDei]

Thank you very much for your time. I know I don't have "Paper-Thin Disguise" up, and "Dust Cloud Melee" still isn't finished. Also, I am probably going to add some banana-peel based maneuvers at SOME point...

But IF you were implying that that is keeping people from PEACHing, I don't think it should.

[Debihuman]

Well, I can't tell whether or not it is balanced. I can say that it probably doesn't matter because it's too darn funny to matter.

Are you planning on finishing this? I hope you are because I'd love to see it completed.

Debby

[DracoDei]

Sorry if this comes off as snappish... I am not actually angry, just in a WEIRD mood.

Well, I can't tell whether or not it is balanced. I can say that it probably doesn't matter because it's too darn funny to matter.

Well, I care about balance issues, even with humorous stuff (well except for my Acid Classes, but that is an entirely different kettle of fish). If other people don't care so much, then I GUESS I could proceed, but I really would like to get it balance-checked.

Are you planning on finishing this? I hope you are because I'd love to see it completed.

Well, I consider it to be in playable shape now given the number of maneuvers it has... but yes, I am planning on continuing work on it at some point... probably going to put a higher priority on it now that the thread is out of the "necro zone" again, and interest has been shown in it by the "Age of the Warriors" project.

It was the lack of PEACH that was a large part of getting me discouraged about continuing it quite frankly... hopeful people will second your opinion, or will PEACH it since I am specifically saying I DO care about balance...

[Debihuman]

I'm really sorry that you are getting discouraged by the lack of feedback. It could just be that Tome of Battle wasn't a popular supplement. That's one of the drawbacks of homebrewing with supplemental material.

The bigger question about balance is what should this be balanced against? There really isn't anything to compare it to. Humor campaigns fill a different niche from serious campaign. Also, what may be overpowered in a serious campaign might be appropriate to a humorous one. Think Paranoia or Toon.

Debby

[DracoDei]

I don't think that I was consciously thinking about what it should be balanced against. But since you ask, I think I am wanting to balance this against the existing Sword-Sage Disciplines.

[DracoDei]

If people don't care about balance, then I guess I can live with that. It DOES make the job easier since I don't have to worry about evaluating people's critiques in that area (whereas before I thought that I first had to GET said critiques and THEN take them into account).

Ok, Paper Thin Disguise is now complete (although it is still a "first draft").

I am considering dropping it down a few levels (to what-ever the previous level that it makes sense to have a Sword-Sage getting a new stance), and/or making it so you can chose for Sense Motive to be the opposed skill, rather than Spot (or even have them have to roll whichever they have the lower total modifier to?).

How muddy/clear is what I have so far for Dust Cloud Melee to people? Note that it is lacking the rules for how individuals exit the melee and MAYBE some stuff about targeting/sneak attack.

Banana Peel based maneuvers may be coming soon (then again they may not).

[elliott20]

Looking at this, I feel that trying to theory-craft the balance might difficult as of this time. I won't worry too much about the balance, since so far it doesn't seem like any of these are game breaking by themselves.

I say we put this out as is, and just let people play test it.

[DracoDei]

Interesting... I would think that since MOST of them have FAIRLY standard effects from a mechanical point of view(electricity damage or blinding for instance) , and thus that it wouldn't be that hard to figure the balance... then again some of the combinations are a bit odd... AoE damage that coverts squares to rough terrain for example (although Deep-Stone sentinel may have something that does that...). Stuff like Zany Dodge, Giant Slingshot, or Fine China Drop are oddball enough that I could see them being noticeably harder. "Dust Cloud Melee" is probably among the hardest ones to balance without play-testing...

Anyway, if we can get some play-test that would be best of course. We can probably leave out the ones that do Sanity damage from that process at least at first BTW...

[Saintheart]

Ohmygod this was funny.

I call dibs on building a homebrewed monster for this discipline. Coming soon, Dathy Duck, the Drake of Doom.

[DracoDei]

Go for it, but I might also do something myself... eventually... (and for all I care other people can too).

[alchemyprime]

Hey, Draco: Mind if I make this work with the Prime20 bard? They can get a little bit of martial maneuvers. I'm also thinking Ranger should get it.

[elliott20]

Interesting... I would think that since MOST of them have FAIRLY standard effects from a mechanical point of view(electricity damage or blinding for instance) , and thus that it wouldn't be that hard to figure the balance... then again some of the combinations are a bit odd... AoE damage that coverts squares to rough terrain for example (although Deep-Stone sentinel may have something that does that...). Stuff like Zany Dodge, Giant Slingshot, or Fine China Drop are oddball enough that I could see them being noticeably harder. "Dust Cloud Melee" is probably among the hardest ones to balance without play-testing...

Anyway, if we can get some play-test that would be best of course. We can probably leave out the ones that do Sanity damage from that process at least at first BTW...

The simple stuff won't require too much thought, it's really the effects and boosts that tends to break things. That's why I say we should just get the material together, and just do an alpha in the fashion of d20r that Fax is doing right now.

[DracoDei]

Hey, Draco: Mind if I make this work with the Prime20 bard? They can get a little bit of martial maneuvers. I'm also thinking Ranger should get it.

1.) I am honored, and you may.
2.) You are going to be type-casting your variant if you include this as anything other than an optional rule. EDIT: And now that I have looked at your thread,

bards being less spoony, more "Freddie Mercury meets the Music Meister".

and looked up "The Music Meister" on Wikipedia, I guess it DOES fit pretty strongly into your vision... nothing like Freddie Mercury though... and I think this qualifies as pretty "spoony"... but maybe I have a different definition than you do.
3.) Why would a RANGER get it? Fudd is the closest thing I can think of off hand that Looney Tunes has to a ranger, and he is a target dummy for these sorts of things, not their practitioner.

That's why I say we should just get the material together, and just do an alpha in the fashion of d20r that Fax is doing right now.

I don't know what Fax is doing... I don't tend to keep up with system re-writes very closely. That having been said... sure if it is working for him it should work for this.

[elliott20]

his approach was pretty simple. Basically, just set the material out for everyone, and ask for people to do theoretical optimization, practical optimization, casual optimization, and such, just to show case what the system can do.

Basically, he's inviting everyone to break his system.

[DracoDei]

The three Banana Peel based maneuvers are now up : Banana Peel Drop, Banana Bunch Peel Toss, and Rain of Banana Peels. They are currently levels 1, 3, and 7 respectively, although I might consider bumping the last one up to level 8 (and prehaps increasing the radius). I do note that since they are simple trip attempts, rather than rough terrain or AoOs, that that last one actually makes a half-way decent defense against War Master's Charge. I need to go edit in some clarifying language about it not counting as an AoO, and also the increasing DCs for the later two. EDIT: That SHOULD be done now.

This pushed the character count too high, so I had to split the maneuvers over two posts now (which are right next to eachother since I reserved the first when I made the thread).

Also, for anyone who missed it, Paper Thin Disguise was finished a few days ago.

[DracoDei]

It has just occured to me that there is an entire source that might be perfect for this discipline, and which I am imperfectly acquanted with... then again it might just fall under rediculous skill levels in Craft (Trapmaking) and such things...

SPY VS SPY!

Having not read those hardly at all, I don't know if I could do it justice, but if anyone has suggestions about whether to include it, and how to do it if so, I would be glad to hear them...

Then again, I wonder if that should be an entire other discipline, given the number of maneuvers this is getting up to... although that MIGHT just argue in favor of increasing the pre-requisites for a lot of them.

EDIT: Also, I have been wondering for a long time about a "hallway of many doors"/"Wack A Mole" stance.

[zerombr]

Misfire:

Plunk, Boom!

When Initiated, the character makes a Melee Touch Attack to plug the end of the opponent's weapon/put his finger on the arrow. If successful, the effect is resolved against the attacking character, though they gain evasion against spell effects from fouled wands and the like.

I think it should work on certain spells too, but the thing is, no good ranger or mage'll fall for this, but Elmer Fudd is hardly a good ranger.

here's how I think it could be worded.

Reaction: when a cast spell, or ranged attack provokes the character, the character may make a touch attack against the offender. if successful, the damage that would've been inflicted to the character is reflected back towards the caster/attacker.

this'd be much akin to someone firing a bow at you, putting your finger in front of the arrow, and having the bow spring backwards.

[DracoDei]

Actually I already wrote up my version of that Counter, which works a bit differently. If people would like to see this version in there AS WELL (or for some reason think my version should be removed) then just tell me...

[DracoDei]

Very small tweak to "Banana Peel Drop", and added some more to "Dust Cloud Melee".

Also, this discipline is now part of The Age of Warriors project. It isn't posted over their, just going to be integrated into the PDF...

[DracoDei]

Note to self: Move Paper Thin Disguise to a lower level, and consider abusability of combining Be Wary Wary Quwiet with Shadow hand maneuvers to save on skill points when creating higher level characters.

[DracoDei]

Made a tweak to the Banana Peel Drop (and by extension the rest of that series) to handle people trying to jump over the square. Still haven't added rules for disposing of them with a long-spear or whatever.

[Fable Wright]

ever seen 'animaniacs'? that's a great show for comedy ideas. One being the stance "I'm baaaaack.", basically dimension door back to the spot you were before you were bull rushed/thrown off a cliff/shot of against will in giant slingshot? maybe as part of tactical feat "Where are you?" along with maybe the skill slomo-speed; everyone else moves in slow motion, a standard and a move action each taking a turn, but the time can only be used for the third skill, 'provoke', in which your character draws a funny mustach/whatever on target, and target is treated as ragin aginst characers, who gain a dodge bonus to AC. provoked target is prone to picking up and throwing characters. Also, class does seem a little broken. Maybe for things like anvil strike, it would be an opposed reflex save, loser takes the damage.

[DracoDei]

Thanks for the ideas. I don't have a TV at the moment so it may be hard to do that research, but I can certainly try to work with what you give me.

The damage values may need some tweaking, but I think that that specific strike is the ONE strike I KNOW is balanced. To see the reason for this look at the summary section for the Desert Wind strike it imitates. The only mechanical difference is that it does bludgeoning rather than fire damage. Fire resistance/immunity is pretty common, but not as common as DR (EDIT: Or at least I didn't THINK it was... someone in the PrC contest chat thread just said the opposite, if so, dropping it down to 5d6 might be appropriate...), and fire stops a lot of Regen..,. so I have to say that that SPECIFIC maneuver is balanced. The ones before and after it in the sequence might or might not be.

As one example of one that I am less sure about: Brick drop does less damage than a longbow in the hands of an archery focused character, has shorter range, but it IS a touch attack. You can't Rapid Shot or Full Attack with it, and ranged focused characters have a lot easier time getting off full attacks.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Still trying to get used to how to make stances and maneuvers, but here are suggestions if you want to get to them before me.

Knocked Loopy
I'm thwee years old!
Whenever you take bludgeoning, force or damage from something falling upon you, you can instead choose to take 1 point of wisdom damage. Energy attacks, explosions, or any of the above that would deal enough damage to kill you, instead leave you Dazed.

Where'd He Go?
Something screwy going on here...
You can use a full-round action to always stay directly behind your opponent. You make a bluff check against his spot and add your base speed to the check. If successful are effectively invisible, and move as he moves, always flanking him. If you take any other action the stance ends, but your target is flat-footed when you act it.

Flat As A Pancake
If you hit by a bludgeoning object or by a falling item, such as an anvil, you can choose to take no damage but are squashed flat. Your size is effectively reduced to Tiny, and you can fit through horizontal spaces 4 inches wide or wider. While in this condition your speed is quartered, to a minimum speed of 10 ft. This condition lasts for a number of rounds equal to the HD of damage dealt.

Pancake Blow
As Flat As A Pancake except you may cause this condition on another.

[DracoDei]

Knocked Loopy
I'm thwee years old!
Whenever you take bludgeoning, force or damage from something falling upon you, you can instead choose to take 1 point of wisdom damage. Energy attacks, explosions, or any of the above that would deal enough damage to kill you, instead leave you Dazed.

Sounds like an improved version of Stance of the Looney. Might make it a feat with that stance as a pre-requisite. Maybe Improved Toughness and/or Great Fortitude too since the wisdom damage doesn't scale with level... making the damage into burn (like stance of the Looney is) would be a potentially serious nerf to keep it under control at higher levels.

Where'd He Go?
Something screwy going on here...
You can use a full-round action to always stay directly behind your opponent. You make a bluff check against his spot and add your base speed to the check. If successful are effectively invisible, and move as he moves, always flanking him. If you take any other action the stance ends, but your target is flat-footed when you act it.

Probably not adding your full speed in feet... maybe +1 for each square in your full speed? Sounds like a weird stance that you can only initiate when adjacent to a foe and has the full-round action maintenance cost as well as a full-round initiation... either that or a similar Boost... the Boost would be the more powerful option of course, since stances are usually more important than boosts I think (if you can't use a boost in a given round that is no big deal, but losing your stance can often be critical and is usually annoying).

Flat As A Pancake
If you hit by a bludgeoning object or by a falling item, such as an anvil, you can choose to take no damage but are squashed flat. Your size is effectively reduced to Tiny, and you can fit through horizontal spaces 4 inches wide or wider. While in this condition your speed is quartered, to a minimum speed of 10 ft. This condition lasts for a number of rounds equal to the HD of damage dealt.

Needs a few more penalties spelled out, like "can not attack physically or use spells or abilities with somatic components", but otherwise it is great for getting into places, and if the fighter can turn you on edge and roll you like a quarter, it works for vertical cracks too. Just keep Anvil Drop on your maneuver's known list and you are good to go...

Pancake Blow
As Flat As A Pancake except you may cause this condition on another.

Needs to allow a Fort save probably, since otherwise "Anvil Drop" just became a low level, touch attack fight-ender against anything that relies on most things other than psionics to get the job done. 6 rounds to "surround and pound" with them at quarter speed? Almost anything would rather be slowed... in fact, maybe the repeated saves of Hold Person, but Fort, rather than Will are in order here. I could turn it into a Boost that only works with this discipline's "________ Drop" maneuvers... it does make "Viking Longboat Drop" absolutely devastating... maybe say that since they share the load-bearing, each creature gets +1 to its fort save(s) against the effect for each other creature struck by that same effect?

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Ah... well, here's the thing. I like, really, really suck at combat rules. If you notice almost everything of mine is caster/manifesting/etc based.

I'm just throwing those ideas out.

Working on my own maneuvers/stances for a PrC in my campaign. Trying to get the hang of it.

[DracoDei]

Well, the core concepts are worth-while, usually just the numbers and such need changing (and usually in pretty simple ways)... and some gaps got filled in of course, but you knew THAT.

You learn something (not much necessarily... I don't feel very certain myself...), and I get to say I actually managed to teach the great VT something.

[DracoDei]

Bumping these two threads (this one, and the maneuvers-by-level one) because:

1. Created two new feats, which each enhance a specific set of Falling Anvil maneuvers in some way.
2. I split "Give Bundle of Dynamite" (which did 20d6 damage) and was at 7th level, into two different maneuvers. A 6th level one that kept the old one's name but now does 15d6 damage, and the new one "Give Box of Dynamite" which does 22d6 damage and is 8th level.

I shall reproduce all of these below, since I am informed by someone in authority is the polite way of doing things (When bumping one's own thread when it is past the necro-zone, which I am further informed is not something it is necessary to ask permision before doing):

Eye for Comedy (A rough draft before I forget the idea)
Having keen eyes to find humor even at long ranges, you can inflict hilarious injury and insult from a greater distance.
Prerequisites:
-Two Falling Anvil Strikes that each meet one of the following requirements: deal bludgeoning damage from a falling object or electricity damage or create banana peels.
-Spot 7 ranks
Benefits: The range on all your Falling Anvil strikes that deal bludgeoning damage from a falling object or electricity damage or create banana peels doubles.




Hot Potato (A rough draft before I forget the idea)
"Hey! Catch!"
Prerequisites:
-Dexterity 13 OR Strength 13
-BAB +5
Benefits: For purposes of the Give Bomb, Give Bundle of Dynamite, and Give Box of Dynamite strikes treat your reach, and the reach of your target as being tripled and you add the higher of your dexterity or strength modifier to your bluff checks involved in such maneuvers.



Give Bundle of Dynamite
Falling Anvil (Strike) [Chaos]
Level: Swordsage 6
Prerequisite: 3 Falling Anvil maneuvers, non-lawful alignment
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Target's reach or yours, whichever is greater
Target: One Creature
Duration: Instantaneous

"Fire in the hole!"

A bundle of 7 sticks of dynamite with a lit fuse leading out from it appears in your hand. As part of this maneuver you may attempt to give it to an opponent whose reach you are within, and/or who is within your reach. At the very least they must free up an appendage to take it if they have such an appendage, dropping an object to the ground in their space if necessary. Make an opposed bluff check against the target. The loser takes 15d6 fire damage as the bomb explodes in their grasp (or on top of their head if they have no manipulative appendages). The target of this ability must have a charisma score.
This maneuver is a supernatural ability.


Give Box of Dynamite
Falling Anvil (Strike) [Chaos]
Level: Swordsage 8
Prerequisite: 3 Falling Anvil maneuvers, non-lawful alignment
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Target's reach or yours, whichever is greater
Target: One Creature
Duration: Instantaneous

"Here... hold this just a sec... I insist."

A moderately sized wooden box with many sticks of dynamite with lit fuses sticking out of it haphazardly from it appears in two of your hands. As part of this maneuver you may attempt to give it to an opponent whose reach you are within, and/or who is within your reach. At the very least they must free up an appendage (if at least 1 size catagory larger than you) or two (if the same size class as you or smaller) to take it if they have such a(n) appendage(s), dropping one or more objects to the ground in their space if necessary. Make an opposed bluff check against the target. The loser takes 22d6 fire damage as the box explodes in their grasp (or on top of their head if they have no manipulative appendages). The target of this ability must have a charisma score.
This maneuver is a supernatural ability.




Note that the damage increment on the second one still probably leaves it behind the curve since more and more things will be immune, but it is also much more useful for disarming since it requires two hands.




So... P.E.A.C.H. away!

[ryleah]

It seems like the character using these abilities would wind up deader than a doornail rather quickly. Most of the other disciplines give you ways to mitigate or negate damage, whereas your seems to actively put it's user into harm's way.

Not Looking Down

Spoiler

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Falling Anvil (Stance) [Chaos]
Level: Swordsage 8
Prerequisite: 3 Falling Anvil maneuvers, non-lawful alignment
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

By not looking down you can willfully ignore the effects of gravity. This grants the effects of Air Walk as long as you avoid looking down, however you can only climb 5' for every 20' of horizontal motion. Unfortunately this means that all creatures that do not have at least some part of their body at least 5' above you are effectively invisible to you.
This maneuver is a supernatural ability.

Cool, Fluffy, Terribly weak for an 8th level maneuver, not to mention it would probably get you very quickly killed by "invisible" opponents.

Giant Slingshot

Spoiler

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Falling Anvil [Chaos]
Level: Swordsage 4
Prerequisite: Two Falling Anvil maneuvers, non-lawful alignment
Initiation Action: 3 full round actions
Range: 200 feet per initiator level
Target: You and up to 1 allied creature per 3 initiator levels (familiars do not count against this limit)
Duration: Instantaneous

"I recommend ACME brand giant slingslots!.... Waaahoohooey!!!!!"

A kit appears in front of you. You may select an aim point, then spend all your actions for the next 3 rounds constructing a giant slingshot on any surface solid enough to walk on. The requisite number of people may load themselves into the slingshot on the third round and you may fire yourselves to the aim point with miss rules as if you each were a catapult stone fired from a catapult (You may substitute Bluff for Profession(Siege Engineer) if you wish). Note that the range is potentially much greater than the range of even a heavy catapult. You all take 1d6 damage per 500 feet or fraction there-of traveled and fall prone on landing. Half this damage (rounded down) is non-lethal, the rest is lethal. Natural and magical flight, Featherfall and all other abilities that could alter the passengers' path of travel or reduce the damage are inactive until after they land. A few notes:

* This is NOT a teleportation effect, thus you MUST have a half-plausible ballistic path to the target area.
* You yourself MUST be one of the passengers or the device will not function, and the catch is designed to be released from the cup of the slingshot.
* The size of the passengers is completely irrelevant. It is entirely possible to load yourself, a druid, a paladin, the paladin's warhorse, and the druid's dire elephant animal companion into the slingshot and launch all of you successfully. (And, perhaps more importantly, it is ridiculously funny to boot... for bonus points fill up any unused slots you have by having your party members summon the largest creatures they can.)

The summoning and vanishing of the materials created by this effect is a supernatural effect, but their use is not.

Hilariously Awesome, WILL eventually cause a party wipe

Stretchy Dodge

Spoiler

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Falling Anvil (Stance) [Chaos]
Level: Swordsage 3
Prerequisite: 2 Falling Anvil maneuvers, non-lawful alignment
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

While in this stance you may take no actions except ending this Stance (usually by switching to another one) and making the attacks it grants you. This prohibition includes, but is not limited to, actions granted by White Raven Maneuvers performed by your allies and attacks of opportunity. It does NOT include Counters that do not allow movement or anything else that might be considered offensive including attacks. You replace your armor class (including flat-footed, touch, etc) with your 10 + total modifier to Bluff Checks and gain the Mettle, Slippery Mind, and Improved Evasion abilities. For every third attack(including spells that cause you to roll a saving throw and such like) by a true foe or someone under the influence of a Dominate spell by a true foe that fails to have any effect on you you, you may make one attack at an opponent who has missed you within the last round. This count carries over from round to round for as long as you maintain this stance, but once you earn an attack you must make it immediately or it is wasted. This attack may be an attack action, or any maneuver or offensive spell that may be performed as a Swift, Immediate, Free, or Standard Action. There is no limit to the number of actions you may make in this way per round.
This maneuver is a supernatural ability.

Making one attack per 3 attacks made against you is a very good way to get yourself killed, even with a slightly higher ac

Basically, what this school needs for balance is some better defensive options. That said, I'm playing a half troll swordsage with this school at the next opportunity I get.