Lightsaber combat forms for SW 2nd ed.?

[didub]

I just finished studying the Star Wars Roleplaying Game 2nd edition, and I was disappointed by the lack of lightsaber combat styles. This seems like a pretty important aspect of being a jedi, so I was wondering if anyone else was interested in helping develop them.

You can read about the styles here under the header The Seven Forms: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat

[Dienekes]

Too be fair in the movies there really isn't any difference between styles. They all just sort of jump around a lot (new trilogy) or use very basic sweeping motions (old trilogy)

[lsfreak]

While it is certainly a different system and would need to be balanced, here's the forms you can use in KotOR2. Blast bolt deflection is simply an opposed attack roll; I don't play SW so I don't know the analogous action.

Form I - Shii-Cho (Determination)
Attack +1
AC +1
AC versus target you attack -3

Form II - Makashi (Contention)
Attack when enemy is weilding lightsabre +3
Damage +3
Blast bolt deflect -5
Saves versus Force powers +2

Form III - Soresu (Resilience)
AC versus target you attack +2
Blaster bolt deflection +4
Critical threat range -1

Form IV - Ataru (Aggression)
AC -2
AC versus target you attack +5
Blaster bolt deflection -5
Critical threat range +1

Form V - Shien (Perseverance)
Attack +2
AC versus target you attack -5
Blast bolt deflection +2
Critical multiplier +1

Form IV - Niman (Moderation)
Attack +1
AC +1
Blaster bolt deflection +1
Saves versus Force powers +1

Form VII - Juyo (Ferocity)
AC -4
AC versus target you attack +2
Saves versus Force powers -4
One extra attack per round
Critical confirmation +4

[Spiryt]

I feel sudden urge to use it in more "classic" entirely non - lightsaberic fantasy thing...

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Too be fair in the movies there really isn't any difference between styles. They all just sort of jump around a lot (new trilogy) or use very basic sweeping motions (old trilogy)

In the movies you basically see people who are old and slow and/or young and untrained (original trilogy) or who pretty much stick with Form I (prequel trilogy). The folks that use different forms in the prequel trilogy really stand out--Darth Maul uses the Sith variant of Form VII, Dooku uses Form II...Yoda, Palpatine, Obi-Wan, Anakin, all the "named" characters have their quirks. When you get to the Expanded Universe pre-Republic or post-New Temple, though, they make a big deal about the styles.

[Dienekes]

In the movies you basically see people who are old and slow and/or young and untrained (original trilogy) or who pretty much stick with Form I (prequel trilogy). The folks that use different forms in the prequel trilogy really stand out--Darth Maul uses the Sith variant of Form VII, Dooku uses Form II...Yoda, Palpatine, Obi-Wan, Anakin, all the "named" characters have their quirks. When you get to the Expanded Universe pre-Republic or post-New Temple, though, they make a big deal about the styles.

Except of course that characters who do stand out as different often have different styles than those they're supposed to be similar to, while characters that use different styles look exactly the same (I'm looking at you, excruciatingly long duel between Ani and Obi-Wan)

Also, when exactly did age start to affect the speed you can do things with the force? Ok, not gonna start nickpicking holes in Star Wars, it's too easy.

[didub]

Amusing that Juyo is and option in Knights of the _Old_ republic, considering it was invented by Windu ;) I like that, but might alter it a little so that they are feats. No time to do that right now though.

[Dienekes]

Actually that's the Vapaad variant of Juyo.

I'm not 100% sure what the difference was but Juyo itself was around a lot earlier. Hell, Maul used it and I'm sure he never studied under Windu

[chrek]

I actually have all 7 lightsaber(plus, I created 2 for form 7, and I think I covered form 8 and 9, but it's been years since I looked at the rules, and I don't recall exactly) forms with rules for them that me and my play group created based on the wiki information on them.

I don't have them on this computer, I'll re-post from home tonight assuming I can find them.

That being said, there were official forms in the "Power of the Jedi" supplement that was released, but myself and my group very much thought these forms lacked any real feeling of flavor, or relationship to the way the wiki portrayed the forms.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Except of course that characters who do stand out as different often have different styles than those they're supposed to be similar to, while characters that use different styles look exactly the same (I'm looking at you, excruciatingly long duel between Ani and Obi-Wan)

Apart from Obi-Wan "I have a weird style, let's call it Form III" Kenobi, any particular examples in mind? I mean, given that they largely came up with the styles after the characters used them in the movie...

Also, when exactly did age start to affect the speed you can do things with the force? Ok, not gonna start nickpicking holes in Star Wars, it's too easy.

Well, technically, the Force is only used to anticipate enemy movements (to let you hit their lightsaber instead of their body so you can get the cool noises!) and to leap around uselessly; two old guys fighting each other are going to be pretty much swinging sabers around like baseball bats, but they aren't going to be able to hit each other.

(Meddle not with SW fans; for every objection you have, SW canon has a contrived explanation! )

Actually that's the Vapaad variant of Juyo.

I'm not 100% sure what the difference was but Juyo itself was around a lot earlier. Hell, Maul used it and I'm sure he never studied under Windu

Essentially, Vapaad and Juyo are variations on a theme; where the Vapaad user gives in to his emotions and skirts the darkness to make his moves harder to predict via the Force, the Juyo user subjugates his emotions for the most part and relies on quick bursts of anger for power, making Vapaad practitioners better suited to fighting enemy Force-users than users of other styles (unless said enemies have plot armor) while Juyo practitioners can hold off many enemies, taking them down one by one.

[chrek]

Found'em!

And to respond to Pair's comments. The forms were discussed well before Episode II, and perhaps even before Episode I when we actually saw them in use.

Although that might not be true of all the forms, I know atleast the first 4 were canon before we saw much use of them.

All forms require the Force-Sensitive, weapon focus (lightsaber) feats and atleast Jedi Level 7th, unless listed otherwise.

Form I
Requirements: Control, lightsaber Defense, Deflect (Defense) +2
Benefit: You gain and additional +2 to your AC against blaster-wielding opponents and cannot be flanked by them.

Form II
Requirements: Control, Weapon Finesse, Dodge.
Benefit: You gain a +3 dodge bonus to your defense against the opponent that is the focus of your Dodge feat, as long as he and you are both wielding Lightsabers.

Form III
Requirements: Control, Lightsaber Defense, Combat Reflexes. Force User level 10th
Benefit: You may make more than a single attack of opportunity on an opponent in a round, to which gain a +2 to hit. You also only take a -2 penalty to hit while fighting defensively, and gain an additional +2 to defense when using the full defense option, on a successful hit you only take half vitality damage.

Form IV
Requirements: Control, Mettle
Benefit: You gain a +2 to your battlemind check (This does not stack with the bonus from form VIII), though your vitality expenditure becomes 2x your force bonus and you must take the result of your roll. You now add that bonus to damage as well as to hit.

Form V
Requirements: Control, Attuned, Power Attack
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on your enhance ability check for Str only. You may add 2 1/2x your str mod into damage, but doing so subtracts half your natural str bonus from your to hit roll.

Form VI
Requirements: Sense, Link, Combat Expertise
Benefit: When fighting with your lightsaber you may use the following skills as a move equivalent action during combat: Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive.

Form VII (Juyo)
Requirements: Control, Alter, Sense, Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Atleast one other Form
Benefit: You gain a bonus of 1/4 your Force user level to hit and AC.

Form VII (Vaapad)
Requirements: Form VII (Juyo)
Benefit: You may add 1/4 your force user level to damage by spending a force point, alternatively, you may opt not to spend a force point, and instead take a dark side point.

Form VIII
Requirements: Control, Mettle
Benefit: You gain a +2 on your battle mind check (This does not stack with your bonus from form IV), though your vitality expenditure becomes 2x your force bonus and you must take the result of your roll. You now add that bonus to AC as well as to hit.

Form IX
Apparently I did not actually come up with workable rules for this form.

[Dienekes]

Apart from Obi-Wan "I have a weird style, let's call it Form III" Kenobi, any particular examples in mind? I mean, given that they largely came up with the styles after the characters used them in the movie...

Yoda and Qui-Gon used the same form apparently.

However Qui-Gon, Obi, and Ani look the same

Grievous and Dooku used similar forms, they look nothing alike.

Windu used the super awesome form 7, but also looked exactly like qui-gon, obi, and ani.

Really, the only character shown to have any form resembling Yoda's would be Sideous. However, he apparently did not specialize in that form.

Well, technically, the Force is only used to anticipate enemy movements (to let you hit their lightsaber instead of their body so you can get the cool noises!) and to leap around uselessly; two old guys fighting each other are going to be pretty much swinging sabers around like baseball bats, but they aren't going to be able to hit each other.

Tell that to Yoda. While it is debatable, I'm personally of the opinion that everything he does is pushing himself with the force. Meaning that yes, his decrepit form has no limitations on how he throws, leaps, parries, and so forth.

(Meddle not with SW fans; for every objection you have, SW canon has a contrived explanation! )

I know, I'm a fan as well. I just enjoy pointing out the inconsistencies to those who like to delude themselves that they do not exist (a certain friend of mine specifically)

Essentially, Vapaad and Juyo are variations on a theme; where the Vapaad user gives in to his emotions and skirts the darkness to make his moves harder to predict via the Force, the Juyo user subjugates his emotions for the most part and relies on quick bursts of anger for power, making Vapaad practitioners better suited to fighting enemy Force-users than users of other styles (unless said enemies have plot armor) while Juyo practitioners can hold off many enemies, taking them down one by one.

Ahh, thank you.

Also to Chrek nicely done.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

And to respond to Pair's comments. The forms were discussed well before Episode II, and perhaps even before Episode I when we actually saw them in use.

Although that might not be true of all the forms, I know atleast the first 4 were canon before we saw much use of them.

They were mentioned in the EU around when Ep I came out (near when we were getting spoilers for it), and briefly described, but as far as I can recall the in-depth descriptions (more than just "Padawans use Form I" and such) didn't come until after Ep II.

Yoda and Qui-Gon used the same form apparently.

Which makes sense, given that Yoda trained Dooku trained Qui-Gon.

Grievous and Dooku used similar forms, they look nothing alike.

Again, Dooku trained Grievous, so some overlap is expected; however, having four arms would tend to make you fight differently than someone with only two.

Windu used the super awesome form 7, but also looked exactly like qui-gon, obi, and ani.

...after we saw him for a grand total of, what, 2 minutes? Most of Vapaad's strength is of the "You can't sense what I'm doing to block" type, so the fact that he could send Palpatine scuttling back in retreat would be proof of Vapaad.

Tell that to Yoda. While it is debatable, I'm personally of the opinion that everything he does is pushing himself with the force. Meaning that yes, his decrepit form has no limitations on how he throws, leaps, parries, and so forth.

I was referring to the fight on the Death Star.

"In the first corner: Obi-Wan Kenobi! He's spent the past few decades in his Tatooine hut being horribly out of practice!"

"In the next corner: Darth Vader! Maneuvering in that suit is like trying to drive a TIE Fighter with your tongue!"

"Aaand fight! Look, a slow, choppy overhand swing from Obi-Wan! In response, a slow, choppy sideways swing from Darth! This could take all day, folks!"

I know, I'm a fan as well. I just enjoy pointing out the inconsistencies to those who like to delude themselves that they do not exist (a certain friend of mine specifically)

Oh, I know they exist, but most of the fun of being a fan of any sci-fi series is coming up with semi-plausible explanations why it is, in fact, perfectly internally consistent while the logic center of the brain is doing the mental equivalent of "La la la la I CAN'T HEAR YOU! la la la ...."

[Dienekes]

Again, Dooku trained Grievous, so some overlap is expected; however, having four arms would tend to make you fight differently than someone with only two.

That's a given. But I would expect some similarity in movement or stance.

...after we saw him for a grand total of, what, 2 minutes? Most of Vapaad's strength is of the "You can't sense what I'm doing to block" type, so the fact that he could send Palpatine scuttling back in retreat would be proof of Vapaad.

Or Palpatine was maneuvering to have Ani find them in that position. But still, it is definitely a disappointment to have the awe inspiring VII which is supposed to be crazy frantic and unblockable, be well, not crazy or frantic and very blockable.

I was referring to the fight on the Death Star.

"In the first corner: Obi-Wan Kenobi! He's spent the past few decades in his Tatooine hut being horribly out of practice!"

"In the next corner: Darth Vader! Maneuvering in that suit is like trying to drive a TIE Fighter with your tongue!"

"Aaand fight! Look, a slow, choppy overhand swing from Obi-Wan! In response, a slow, choppy sideways swing from Darth! This could take all day, folks!"

I know what you were referencing, I'm simply throwing support that this explanation makes no sense, other than the movie effects at the time wouldn't have made it work.

Also in EU Obi-Wan has been practicing his control with the force for the entire exile, this control being almost interchangeable with the ability to use the force in combat in the first place.

And Vader is even worse, since in EU he'd been developing his own, super style that combined the best aspects of all the forms. Also his parts were made with the same mechanics as Grievous.

And a note that is actually relevant to this being the Homebrew section. Chrek, those look awesome but what is Form VIII, and IX?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

We should probably start spoilering the side conversation:

Spoiler

Show

Or Palpatine was maneuvering to have Ani find them in that position. But still, it is definitely a disappointment to have the awe inspiring VII which is supposed to be crazy frantic and unblockable, be well, not crazy or frantic and very blockable.

They do a pretty good job in the EU; I guess it's just harder to make a mostly-mental/-Force style look cool in the movies.

I know what you were referencing, I'm simply throwing support that this explanation makes no sense, other than the movie effects at the time wouldn't have made it work.

Well, obviously that's the real explanation, but...la la la I can't hear you...

Also in EU Obi-Wan has been practicing his control with the force for the entire exile, this control being almost interchangeable with the ability to use the force in combat in the first place.

And Vader is even worse, since in EU he'd been developing his own, super style that combined the best aspects of all the forms.

Well, how far "lots of meditation" and "developing a super-style" would help, given Vader's huge reduction in potential and Obi-Wan's crushing guilt, is up for debate.

And a note that is actually relevant to this being the Homebrew section. Chrek, those look awesome but what is Form VIII, and IX?

It looks like VIII is supposed to deal with Battle Meditation somehow. There are indeed more forms than the seven that are taught to pretty much all of the jedi, but they aren't officially placed into the numbered progression.

[IcarusWings]

Anyone willing to stat out Djem So, Vapaad, Jar'kai, Sokan, trispzest, trakata, Adi Gallia's style or any of the fast, medium or strong styles?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Anyone willing to stat out Djem So, Vapaad, Jar'kai, Sokan, trispzest, trakata, Adi Gallia's style or any of the fast, medium or strong styles?

Most of these can be represented with existing feats or mechanics:

• Djem So--Add Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit to Form III.
• Vapaad--Get more attacks at full BAB somehow.
• Jar'kai--Basically TWF
• Sokan--Not well represented mechanically; just use difficult terrain and height a lot.
• Trispzest--Get a fly speed.
• Trakata--Doesn't work with a regular sword very well.
• Fast--Add Combat Reflexes to Form IV.
• Medium--Add Combat Expertise to Form VI.
• Strong--Add Power Attack and Leap Attack to Form IV.

[Dienekes]

Wow... upon looking up Trakata I've actually found a complete BS, but semi logical reason why the duel between Vader and Ben in the original series looked so slow.

Obi-Wan Kenobi used Tràkata when facing Darth Vader during their duel on the first Death Star. Obi-Wan kept his former apprentice at bay by quickly switching his blade on and off while parrying. Wary of a lightning-fast strike to his torso or arms, Vader was forced to keep his distance and advance slowly on his former mentor, instead of rushing in and use his superior height, girth and strength.

Well... fine. I concede that this totally contrived reasoning does in fact make a kernel of sense. Not much, but at least it's a reason.

Now to do it, I'd guess it'd just be a re-fluffed Improved Feint and Quick Draw into 1 feat.

[chrek]

Sorry for not responding, the weekend ate all my 'net time.

And a note that is actually relevant to this being the Homebrew section. Chrek, those look awesome but what is Form VIII, and IX?

I looked the forms back up and it looks like the references to the numbering for the extended list of forms has been changed. I'm assuming there was fiction that gave them names that I've since missed instead of just referring to them being numbers.

As I recall form 9 was a dual wielding form, and I don't recall what form 8 was.

I intend to revisit these someday as I work on recreating the SW d20 system for a set of house rules to the new d20 system I've been working on.

Anyway, if anyone uses these let me know how they work out please. I've seen pretty limited use of them, mostly forms 3 and 5. Shortly after I created these we pretty much stopped playing SW all together.

[didub]

Those are awesome Chrek! With a little fluff, they could totally be publishable. Exactly what I wanted ;)

[Hawriel]

I just finished studying the Star Wars Roleplaying Game 2nd edition, and I was disappointed by the lack of lightsaber combat styles. This seems like a pretty important aspect of being a jedi, so I was wondering if anyone else was interested in helping develop them.

You can read about the styles here under the header The Seven Forms: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat

There is a lot of D20 mechanics talk about the D6 edition game