[3.5] Being Tiny

[EnnPeeCee]

So, I'm looking into some things about making a tiny sized character, and had some questions about some things.

A tiny creature has no reach, which means they must enter the opponent's square to attack.
- Does a tiny creature wielding a reach weapon have a normal 5ft reach?
- Would you still be able to attack the opponent with the reach weapon if you occupied their square?
- Are there other ways to gain that reach with melee weapons?

- Are there any tiny sized races that are playable as a player (IE, not playing as a monkey)

- Are there any better ways to reduce a small character to tiny than by using a permanent reduce person?

[Thajocoth]

Psuedodragon and Grig Sprite, both LA +3

[Ganurath]

Any Small standard race playing a psionic character with the Reduction power. You probably want a halfling with throwing weapons as a psychic warrior to get the most out of size and Dex bonuses.

[EnnPeeCee]

Psuedodragon and Grig Sprite, both LA +3

Ah, so there is. Although I would prefer to play a humanoid, I'll keep Grig in mind.

[EnnPeeCee]

Any Small standard race playing a psionic character with the Reduction power. You probably want a halfling with throwing weapons as a psychic warrior to get the most out of size and Dex bonuses.

Right now I'm not using any psionics, but if I do, a good method.

[Salt_Crow]

- Does a tiny creature wielding a reach weapon have a normal 5ft reach?

I'm not sure about this one. Reach weapons work as doubling your natural reach (which is 0) not adding +5ft iirc.

- Would you still be able to attack the opponent with the reach weapon if you occupied their square?

If the previous question did indeed allow one to make the increase in reach, I'd say no. Your reach is in 5-ft. square around you and not the square you occupy/share.

- Are there other ways to gain that reach with melee weapons?

Abberant Reach (LoM), 3rd level Warshaper (was it 2nd?) etc. Those add flat +5ft to reach iirc.

- Are there any tiny sized races that are playable as a player (IE, not playing as a monkey)

Tibbit from Dragon Compendium can turn into a tiny cat with some items retained. There's a Ring of Reduction in LoM that permanently (as long as you have the ring on) reduces your size by one category regardless of your type.

- Are there any better ways to reduce a small character to tiny than by using a permanent reduce person?

Ring of Reduction, a spell in ECS w/ Giant type creatures (return to nature or something?) etc. The latter gives an instant reduction in size for creatures with Giant type. If it can be stacked, Fine size is not impossible. What a fine giant you will be!

[EnnPeeCee]

I'm not sure about this one. Reach weapons work as doubling your natural reach (which is 0) not adding +5ft iirc.


If the previous question did indeed allow one to make the increase in reach, I'd say no. Your reach is in 5-ft. square around you and not the square you occupy/share.


Abberant Reach (LoM), 3rd level Warshaper (was it 2nd?) etc. Those add flat +5ft to reach iirc.


Tibbit from Dragon Compendium can turn into a tiny cat with some items retained. There's a Ring of Reduction in LoM that permanently (as long as you have the ring on) reduces your size by one category regardless of your type.


Ring of Reduction, a spell in ECS w/ Giant type creatures (return to nature or something?) etc. The latter gives an instant reduction in size for creatures with Giant type. If it can be stacked, Fine size is not impossible. What a fine giant you will be!

I was afraid about that with the reach weapons.

Is abberant reach the only flat bonus?

Must look into this Tibbit and Ring...

[EnnPeeCee]

Another option, any ways to gain the ability to use reduce person aside from just taking levels in a caster?

[Eloel]

Wand of Reduce Person & ranks in UMD.

Use Eternal Wand for 3 (4?) /day wand with infinte charges.

[EnnPeeCee]

Wand of Reduce Person & ranks in UMD.

Use Eternal Wand for 3 (4?) /day wand with infinte charges.

Oooh, I had no idea eternal wands existed.
Its 2/day uses, for roughly the same price too.

[Starscream]

Other Tiny races include Imp, certain Wyrmling dragons, and Petal.

Not a lot to choose from. If you want a race that's always tiny, I'd go with Grig or Petal myself. They are fey, but at least they are interesting.

If you don't mind using magic, I'd just get one of those rings and pick something Small. Tons of great small races to choose from, barely any tiny ones.

[EnnPeeCee]

Ok, been looking at some things.

Warshaper would be difficult for me to get, and eats 3 levels for the reach.
Inhuman Reach looks possible, but eats 2 feats and applies a -1 to attacks.

I couldn't find the ring of reduction.

[EnnPeeCee]

Other Tiny races include Imp, certain Wyrmling dragons, and Petal.

Not a lot to choose from. If you want a race that's always tiny, I'd go with Grig or Petal myself. They are fey, but at least they are interesting.

If you don't mind using magic, I'd just get one of those rings and pick something Small. Tons of great small races to choose from, barely any tiny ones.

Yeah, I think I'm going to need to go with a small character. I just need to find the best way to make myself tiny when I need to.

[Johel]

Yeah, I think I'm going to need to go with a small character. I just need to find the best way to make myself tiny when I need to.

Background "curse" with DM fiat ?
Some custom cursed items could do it.
Or simply a Wish that backfired. Effrits can be jerks

After all, the benefits from being Tiny aren't that great and there are several drawbacks

[EnnPeeCee]

Background "curse" with DM fiat ?
Some custom cursed items could do it.
Or simply a Wish that backfired. Effrits can be jerks

After all, the benefits from being Tiny aren't that great and there are several drawbacks

I'm planning on using things like Confound the Big Folk so that I could potentially stand under a creature as small as medium.

[Irreverent Fool]

There is a Desert Wind maneuver in the Tome of Battle which increases your reach by 5 feet for one round iirc. Tome of Battle is also great as a tiny character thanks to Insightful Strike which allows you to do damage equal to a Concentration check (ignoring your normal weapon modifiers). There are a number of other maneuvers that grant bonuses against opponents larger than you as well.

My warblade once critically hit a guard for 63 damage while polymorphed into a rat.

obnoxious
sig

[Thurbane]

There's the Jermlaine in MM2.

[Johel]

My warblade once critically hit a guard for 63 damage while polymorphed into a rat.

obnoxious
sig

"-My eye !! It's burrowing through my eye !! Oh the pain !! Get it off !!"

[Fax Celestis]

My Pixie lance gives a Tiny creature 5' reach.

[Irreverent Fool]

"-My eye !! It's burrowing through my eye !! Oh the pain !! Get it off !!"

I was afraid the enemies might employ the holy hand grenade.

On the subject of reach: While the general rule in the SRD states that

most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach

specific weapon entries say such things as

a glaive has reach. You can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe.

The SRD mention that tiny creatures

typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally.

So, by the RAW, a tiny creature either must ALWAYS enter a creature's space to attack in melee OR a tiny creature with a longspear has a reach identical to a medium creature with a longspear.

Naturally, both of these interpretations are ridiculous. By RAMS, a tiny creature's reach is extended to 5' with a typical reach weapon, but while using such a weapon it is unable to attack into its own space.

obnoxious
sig

[Fixer]

My warblade once critically hit a guard for 63 damage while polymorphed into a rat.

Awakened Rabbit with Warblade Levels... VORPAL BUNNY!

[Optimystik]

Or simply a Wish that backfired. Effrits can be jerks.

"Do you really think I asked for a 10-inch pianist?"

[Cieyrin]

Awakened Rabbit with Warblade Levels... VORPAL BUNNY!

It's unfortunate that Vorpal is such a lackluster enhancement. It's thematic at best, a waste of a +5 enhancement at worst.

So anyways, make that awakened Rabbit take some levels of Kensei to magic up those incisors and we may get somewhere!

EDIT:

My Pixie lance gives a Tiny creature 5' reach.

I feel slightly disappointed I can't see the mentioned Tiny Knight mentioned in the Pixie Lance thread, though it's understandable as an old thread but still.

[Salt_Crow]

Ring of reduction is from LoM page 130. That book's got many hidden gems in very odd places (like mindsight for example).

[woodenbandman]

Be a Kobold. The web enhancement gives them slight build, meaning they count as tiny for a lot of things. If you couple that with an augmented Reduction, you could shrink yourself down to diminutive, counting as fine for many things.

[Fax Celestis]

I feel slightly disappointed I can't see the mentioned Tiny Knight mentioned in the Pixie Lance thread, though it's understandable as an old thread but still.

I lost the sheet when RPGWebProfiler died, but the Tiny Knight was an modified Awakened Skiurid (MM-IV) Knight 12//Scout 4/Ranger 8 with Natural Bond, Combat Expertise, the Riposte scout variant, Swift Hunter, and Deadly Defense.

Picture a squirrel from the plane of Shadow riding a bald eagle with a two foot long lance, screaming loquacious insults (said to a succubus: "Stars above, woman, do you ever cease your fornications?") and being generally impossible to hit due to his insane AC (+4 size, +4 dex, +6 armor, +3 shield, +2 deflection, +1-5 Combat Expertise, +2 riposte, at minimum) and all-good saves.

[EnnPeeCee]

Be a Kobold. The web enhancement gives them slight build, meaning they count as tiny for a lot of things. If you couple that with an augmented Reduction, you could shrink yourself down to diminutive, counting as fine for many things.

Would slight build count for things like Underfoot Combat?

Edit: My understanding is that it wouldn't. It only says that it effects size modifiers, squeezing, and using smaller weapons.

[EnnPeeCee]

Another quick unrelated question:
Is there another class or something somewhere that has an ability like the Knight's Bulwark of Defense? It's the one that makes squares you threaten count as difficult terrain.

[Darrin]

Another quick unrelated question:
Is there another class or something somewhere that has an ability like the Knight's Bulwark of Defense? It's the one that makes squares you threaten count as difficult terrain.

Well, kinda. Deepstone Sentinel, AKA "The Dwarven Defender that Doesn't Suck", in ToB. It has a Mountain Fortress Stance that makes adjacent squares count as rough terrain. Otherwise, any Stand Still/Lockdown build turns any threatened square into a "stop moving" square.

[EnnPeeCee]

Well, kinda. Deepstone Sentinel, AKA "The Dwarven Defender that Doesn't Suck", in ToB. It has a Mountain Fortress Stance that makes adjacent squares count as rough terrain. Otherwise, any Stand Still/Lockdown build turns any threatened square into a "stop moving" square.

Unfortunately that class won't work for this character because of the requirements, as well as the fact that I don't use ToB usually.