[3.5/Diablo II] Secret Cow Level

[HasegawaTakumi]

I'm going to run the "secret cow level" of Diablo II for two players (you can find it as a web enhancement here)

But, it's not going to be that simple for them... I modified the Hell Bovines 'a bit'... they're now CR20, with stats as follows:

Large Magical Beast
HD 26d10+231 (374)
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Init: +0
AC 10 (+8 natural, -1 size, -3 dex, -4 rage)
BAB +26
Attack Poleaxe +35 (1d10+9/20/x3)
Full-Attack Poleaxe +35/+30/+25/+20
Space 5 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks: Trample, Smite Good 1/day, Pounce
Special Qualities DR 10/--, DR 10/magic, Cold&Fire Resistance 20, Darkvision 60ft, Fast Healing 5, SR 25
Saves Fort +22 Ref +12 Will +11
Abilities Str 28, Dex 4, Con 26, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 6
Feats Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Toughness, Reckless Rage, Improved Initiative, Endurance, Steadfast Determination
Challenge Rating 20
Alignment Lawful Evil

Note: they're considered to be always raging

They have good offensive capabilities, but the players are going to hit them with every attack because of their AC of 10...

At which level should the players be for this to be an appropriate one-shot encounter? Keep in mind they're 2 (maybe 3) against one thousand...

[Lolzords]

How many cows do you intend them to fight at one time?

[Temet Nosce]

At which level should the players be for this to be an appropriate one-shot encounter? Keep in mind they're 2 (maybe 3) against one thousand...

What classes, and what level of optimization?

[Spiryt]

I'm not good at it, but they seem way too weak for CR 20.

Fighting with thousands of them might be rather hard anyway though.

[elfmanmagic]

Needs a boss that counters every attack with lightning damage and is immune to cold and electric damage.

[Cieyrin]

Special Qualities DR 10/--, DR 10/magic

Why do they have both DR/- and DR/magic, of the same value, nonetheless? Everybody and their brother is gonna have magic weapons by this point, so why bother? Is it just from advancing them as Magical Beasts? I'm guessing not, as they'd need a quite a couple more hit dice to be CR 20s for that, at least according to the d20 SRD.

Also, considering the beasties originally came in herds of 100 at a time, I think upping their CR individually would be a be bit much when they come in those numbers, not to mention slow to run.

[HasegawaTakumi]

Why do they have both DR/- and DR/magic, of the same value, nonetheless? Everybody and their brother is gonna have magic weapons by this point, so why bother? Is it just from advancing them as Magical Beasts? I'm guessing not, as they'd need a quite a couple more hit dice to be CR 20s for that, at least according to the d20 SRD.

Also, considering the beasties originally came in herds of 100 at a time, I think upping their CR individually would be a be bit much when they come in those numbers, not to mention slow to run.

They normally have DR 10/--, but I applied the fiendish template to them.

They do come in herds of 100, so it's not like they're actually facing 1000 cows at the same time, but it's also a one-shot encounter without safe places to regroup...

We're not great optimizers, but I was thinking of asking the CharOp experts for some help... One player is almost surely going to be a meleer (probably with ToB), one of the others will probably a caster, while the third I don't know... Also, we're using gestalt.

[Cieyrin]

You'd have to gestalt to stand a chance with 3 20th level PCs against a horde of 100 CR 20s, at least, even if they are a tad underpowered still. I assume you put Feral on them, as well, to get the Fast Healing and Pounce?

[HasegawaTakumi]

You'd have to gestalt to stand a chance with 3 20th level PCs against a horde of 100 CR 20s, at least, even if they are a tad underpowered still. I assume you put Feral on them, as well, to get the Fast Healing and Pounce?

Yeah, they're feral too... and I was aiming more at the 30+ level range...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No immunity to Mind-Affecting and low Will save = dead cows. Or worse, enslaved cows to kill other cows. And nothing stops the whole Cloudkill scenario either.

Their damage output is... pathetic. No, really. 1d10+9? Any level 20 party can just wade through them. Easily. Heck, they don't even have magic weapons, so half the caster PrC's out there will simply ignore their damage output completely.

With them coming in the hundreds, the best way to do this is something like Chain Dominate Monster or something. Warlock would also carve them up en masse since their reflex save sucks too.

Really, the only real way TO harm them would be zerging, because no other way are you going to be able to much affect any party.

Heck, for that matter, how are they supposed to *REACH* most of the party, which will by that time be flying and probably invisible?

[HasegawaTakumi]

No immunity to Mind-Affecting and low Will save = dead cows. Or worse, enslaved cows to kill other cows. And nothing stops the whole Cloudkill scenario either.

Well, then I'm going to make them Corpse creatures (BoVD)

Their damage output is... pathetic. No, really. 1d10+9? Any level 20 party can just wade through them. Easily. Heck, they don't even have magic weapons, so half the caster PrC's out there will simply ignore their damage output completely.

How about giving each cow 220.000gp of equipment?

Heck, for that matter, how are they supposed to *REACH* most of the party, which will by that time be flying and probably invisible?

That I don't know... true seeing and flight for them too?

[Innis Cabal]

Then it ceases to be a "Cow Level". What your really trying to do is make a mass creatures attack...which would work with lots of printed creatures. Heck throw 100 advanced Drowned on them. Problem. Solved.

There is no way even the above will do much.

[Baron Corm]

Make the Secret Cow Level a plane where no spells work except for Evocation and Necromancy, and the most any damage can be reduced is 50%, thanks to evil auras or something.

[Cieyrin]

Make the Secret Cow Level a plane where no spells work except for Evocation and Necromancy, and the most any damage can be reduced is 50%, thanks to evil auras or something.

Why not just make the demiplane a dead magic zone? That probably works the best towards what the Secret Cow Level intended.

[paddyfool]

A few suggestions:

1) Give the cows big magic poleaxes. +5 Wounding should be fun, and reach works well with mob tactics.
2) Give them slightly faster move - say 40
3) Make it a no fly, no invisibility zone with limited space to run. For "no fly", you could make it a demiplane that's only 15' high, with 5' of that being the ground beneath your feet, and that's only a few hundred feet in diameter with uneven edges. To cancel invisibility... well, there's probably some spell that'll do it. Maybe just treat the whole area as being under invisibility purge permanently.
4) Don't tell the players too much about what to expect when they go through.
5) Stat up a big boss cow, and give him some really fancy loot.
6) Have a recording of the "moo"s from the original secret cow level.

[HasegawaTakumi]

Why not just make the demiplane a dead magic zone? That probably works the best towards what the Secret Cow Level intended.

I prefer the only evocation and necromancy option, since one of my players is probably going to be a caster... he could be a blaster, I know they're underpowered, but it's a one-shot encounter. And besides, fireballing those would surely be fun. Also, I'm thinking of using the Ultimate variants of some classes (at least the Sorcerer and Wizard), limiting the spells to 7th-level and lower.

1) Give the cows big magic poleaxes. +5 Wounding should be fun, and reach works well with mob tactics.
2) Give them slightly faster move - say 40
3) Make it a no fly, no invisibility zone with limited space to run. For "no fly", you could make it a demiplane that's only 15' high, with 5' of that being the ground beneath your feet, and that's only a few hundred feet in diameter with uneven edges. To cancel invisibility... well, there's probably some spell that'll do it. Maybe just treat the whole area as being under invisibility purge permanently.
4) Don't tell the players too much about what to expect when they go through.
5) Stat up a big boss cow, and give him some really fancy loot.
6) Have a recording of the "moo"s from the original secret cow level.

1) I'll give them 220.000 gp of equipment. +5 Keen Vicious Poleaxes of Speed? Con damage may be too much without healing magic... They're one thousand cows, after all...
2) I'm considering how to rebuild them differently. Either different templates or some magic items will solve that problem.
3) See above
4) & 6) That's obvious
5) Some suggestions? Maybe when they defeat all the cows, believing they've finally made it, he show up? "Loot" doesn't really matter, since it's a one-shot. As for the build, an 8th level Disciple of Dispater with a greataxe and Improved critical?