i want to make a balanced 3.5 monk with good BaB

[petrefax]

basically i want to play a martial artist with less of the spiritual side of the monks abilities and a little more combat prowess (read: 1:1 or 7/8 BaB)
i want to drop almost all of the supernatural monk abilities, even abundant step :(

but yeah any help with figuring out exactly what i could trade for the BaB upgrade without frontloading the first few levels too much would be really helpful. i thought about moving the bonus feats down a level each to spread things out a bit more maybe putting still mind and purity of body down further

this is for a campaign starting at level 5 and i really want to make sure its balanced cause my freinds usually dont take the initiative to modify classes and actually figure out how to make it balanced, so ill probably get chewed out unless i make it a little underpowered

help me pleeeze

[Zeta Kai]

Honestly, giving the class +1BAB/HD is just the first step in building a balanced monk. At my table, monks get that by default, & a few other goodies too. I still don't get too many takers, though.

[vasharanpaladin]

Play a swordsage.

[deuxhero]

I would recommend dropping flurry or fast movement/giving monks pounce, as the two abilities are at complete odds with each other. If you go the first route, I recommend skirmish damage as a replacement, as it has a good synergy.

[DragoonWraith]

Well, past 10-ish, you're going to be underpowered by default if you don't have any supernatural powers. If you restrict yourself to realistic, mundane, or ya know, plausible within the laws of physics, the higher levels are just going to laugh at you. That's just how things work.

But at level 5, and for a few levels after, you might manage something. Pounce would be a great start. And full BAB should go without saying.

[petrefax]

what book is swordsage in?
do they get unarmed attacks?

so you guys really dont think that full bab is too powerful with flurry?
cause it seems a bit...crazy

[DragoonWraith]

Swordsage is in The Tome of Battle: Book of the Nine Swords. There's an Unarmed variant that's quite good.

It's also very definitely not mundane. Swordsages are supposed to be "martial wizards", literally. However, you might modify the Warblade to give them the Monk's unarmed damage progression, and end up with what is probably the best you'll ever do at an attempt at balanced mundane warrior.

[petrefax]

my character is going to be a changeling (non LA doppleganger) so not really a mundane warrior...
the idea is to be the perfect assassin (get to see the duke alone, unarmed and...)

also the internet concensus may be that monks are underpowered but that is very much not the case in my local meta, gm is not gonna give the bab upgrade for free.
also i cant get a hold of my gm right now so i havent even asked him about modifying the class yet :(

[vasharanpaladin]

gm is not gonna give the bab upgrade for free.

...If that's the case, you're better off going with either the monk as written or any other melee class. Because honestly? There's no way dropping full BAB onto the monk as written is going to break his game in half.

[Knaight]

Assassin type you say?
Rogue could work. If your not using it Monk2/Something else is a good idea. Monk 2 might still be a decent idea, it gets you improved evasion faster and saves you a feat if you have to go unarmed.

[Zeta Kai]

There's no way dropping full BAB onto the monk as written is going to break his game in half.

You'd be amazed at how paranoid some DMs get about their game balance. This usually results in myopic focus on some perceive problems, while ignoring other, more glaring flaws. For example, the guys at Paizo think that Power Attack was overpowered, but Sor/Wiz & CoDzilla needed a boost. It boggles the mind...

[vasharanpaladin]

Nothing on my group:

"Wizards are weak, play a fighter."
"No, fighters suck. If you have to go fighter, play a warblade instead."
"WTF are you talking about? Fighters are uber!"
"...Anything relying on rolls to hit AC is at a major disadvantage. Make a damn Will save. Oh, that's right, you're a fighter. In that case, you're stuck in the Negative Energy Plane for the rest of your life."
"...HAX!"

...To this day my casters still have a tendency to run into deathtraps that weren't there when the rest of the party walked through the door.

[I_Got_This_Name]

Don't bother with trying to make something equivalent to the Monk but useful.

Seriously, don't.

The monk class, as written, is just above "completely useless." A class based on the same concept but actually able to keep up with monsters looks like this.

I can second the reccomendation to make a rogue instead. Grab two-weapon fighting, pounce from somewhere (Wand of Lion's Charge should do it, although I can't remember what book that's from. Alternately, if Psionics are allowed, get a Dorje of Psionic Lion's Charge, since that's the same thing and in the SRD), and dual-wield nunchaku and you're good to go.

You can also do a wizard, sorcerer, or PHB2 Duskblade, cast a lot of self-buffs, and flavor them as martial stances and meditations (Stoneskin Focus: Your mental focus makes attacks roll off of you. Dozen Fists Style: Mirror image spell), with your offensive spells (touch spells, primarily) being special martial arts moves. Your BAB will suck, but you won't care since you're making touch attacks anyway (either with CAdv Wraithstrike or just PHB touch spells. Chill Touch is a good staple once you have a few levels under your belt, since it gives a bunch of touches). I can't promise that a Wizard or Sorcerer will be necessarily survivable doing this unless you know where to look for defensive spells, though, especially at low-levels where you don't have spells that last all day.

[petrefax]

i may have found a simple solution
what if i just take a fighter as base, trade weapon proficiency for unarmed strike
and trade armor proficiency for wisdom ac bonus. maybe find a way to fit flurry in but maybe not, i dunno

[lsfreak]

Adding something to a monk but then taking something away will just keep it pathetically weak. An easy fix would be something like full BAB, allowing you to move up to your speed at any point during a flurry, allowing weapons to do their damage or unarmed damage, and allowing them to wear light armor.

If you really want a monk, play an unarmed swordsage instead. If your DM doesn't allow that, than play a fighter. A fighter does all the things a monk can do in a fight, but better (and is still considered significantly underpowdered).

[Nero24200]

If you're trying to up the power of the monk, first thing is to increase the BAB as already said. A few of it's abilities will still need a little boost in order to be effective.

See if you can ask you DM to, as part of it's class features, to let wisdom subsitute for a few other things so that the class is less dependent on multiple ability scores.

And just a side note, others around here seem to have recommended using a swordsage instead. If you GM has issues with the monk, I honestly wouldn't bother, since at a glance the abilities seem pretty overpowering. Truthfully, I don't think Tomb of Battle classes are really that great at all, but if you're going to ask for any combat based "Fix" or some such, be prepered for alot of Tomb of Battle surgestions (even if you specifically say that's not what you're looking for).

[Myou]

Play an unarmed swordsage.

If you have to play a monk then a free full BAB is not a problem.

[Frog Dragon]

If you're trying to up the power of the monk, first thing is to increase the BAB as already said. A few of it's abilities will still need a little boost in order to be effective.

See if you can ask you DM to, as part of it's class features, to let wisdom subsitute for a few other things so that the class is less dependent on multiple ability scores.

And just a side note, others around here seem to have recommended using a swordsage instead. If you GM has issues with the monk, I honestly wouldn't bother, since at a glance the abilities seem pretty overpowering. Truthfully, I don't think Tomb of Battle classes are really that great at all, but if you're going to ask for any combat based "Fix" or some such, be prepered for alot of Tomb of Battle surgestions (even if you specifically say that's not what you're looking for).

Swordsage? Overpowered? No really, it's not. It's just functioning melee. You still can't fly or shove people into another plane and maneuvers are generally vastly weaker than spells with the unfortunate exception or two (Iron Heart Surge, I'm looking at you!). This seems to be kind of DM who takes things as written and even if your unarmed swordsage is leagues above the Monk, he won't ban it.

[Godskook]

Honestly, I'm jumping on the 'play a swordsage' bandwagon for you. Your assassin would have:

3/4 BAB
6 + Int skill points(upgrade from the monk
50% miss chance(Child of Shadows Stance)
Higher Initiative(Class feature)
Various maneuvers(They're very useful, but depends on what you grab)
No alignment or multiclass restrictions or issues.

The higher skill points mean you can better focus on your relevant assassin skills, the 50% miss chance means you shouldn't be getting hit too often in combat. Add weapon finesse/shadow blade, and now you're using dexterity to attack and damage rolls, reducing your MAD some. You can also qualify for Desert wind Dodge almost by default, and while it isn't a great feat, its far better than the regular dodge, in case you need to take one to qualify for a prestige class(Like Master of Nine, to get, say, iron heart surge).

[petrefax]

well the swordsage seems crazy good, i dunno though if its worth trading the +4ac chain shirt in for unarmed strike though so i might just play a shadow hand swordsage with a spike chain.
or i might just play a fighter2/rogue3 with two kukri or somethin
i still want to find an unarmed combat class with 1:1 bab though

[Godskook]

Mithral Chain Shirts have no ACP, and thus, you don't need proficiency to wear them, as far as I know.

[vasharanpaladin]

well the swordsage seems crazy good, i dunno though if its worth trading the +4ac chain shirt in for unarmed strike though so i might just play a shadow hand swordsage with a spike chain.
or i might just play a fighter2/rogue3 with two kukri or somethin
i still want to find an unarmed combat class with 1:1 bab though

Play a warblade, and take Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike.