New class, The Squire.

[raszmo]

So this is the squire, i'ts an idea for a campain wer having, so it might not be universally balanced. It has been through some amount of changes but im sure it can handle some more, so have at it.




Squire

A squire is a knight’s servant, student, protector. Always with him, not only making sure the queen can see her image in his armor clear as day, but there with him at the castle, the war - watching, aspiring.
A true squire is ever loyal and devoted to his master, valuing his life over his own. Above all but his masters urging wishes, a squire is dedicated to the dream of one day being dubbed a knight, a moment of honor and glory. A squire is always training to be the ultimate soldier even in the only few hours he gets for himself. He needs to be good enough; else he knows he will be cleaning up after a horse forever. A squire has gained knowledge of martial weapons and armor and has a unique insight from both the crafting and mechanics aspects, and the insight gained from their destined full use in battle. In battle a squires duty is to carry his knight flag with his insignia, always riding next to the knight his priority to prevent any harm coming to his master, always shielding the knights side turned to the enemy archers. Other than his master, who’s relationship with the squire cannot always call friendship, the squire has not many friends in these delicate teenage years of a young man’s life. The horses fill this void in a deep meaning that eventually grows in to the mystique. All in all a squire can be handy to ride out with, but deadly to ride against, and impossible to ride away from if you hurt his horse, but not bad enough...


Alignment
Any lawful

Hit Die
d10.

Starting age: Generally very young.

Skills: A squire chooses two skill sets. 2 + Int skill points per level, x4 at first level.

Prowess: A squire gains 6 points of prowess per level.


Squire
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|

+1

|

+2

|

+0

|

+1

|Bonus feat

2nd|

+2

|

+3

|

+0

|

+1

|Martial eq experience, Armor mastery(medium)

3rd|

+3

|

+3

|

+1

|

+2

|Mounted combat

4th|

+4

|

+4

|

+1

|

+2

|Bonus mounted combat feat, Squires mount

5th|

+5

|

+4

|

+1

|

+3

|Shield ally*, Shield block +1

6th|

+6/+1

|

+5

|

+2

|

+3

|Bonus mounted combat feat, Armor break

7th|

+7/+2

|

+5

|

+2

|

+3

|Trusting aura

8th|

+8/+3

|

+6

|

+2

|

+4

|Martial eq experience +2

9th|

+9/+4

|

+6

|

+3

|

+4

|Prove manhood, Armor mastery(heavy)

10th|

+10/+5

|

+7

|

+3

|

+5

|-

11th|

+11/+6/+1

|

+7

|

+3

|

+5

|Shield block +2

12th|

+12/+7/+2

|

+8

|

+4

|

+6

|Armorgeddon

13th|

+13/+8/+3

|

+8

|

+4

|

+6

|Bonus feat

14th|

+14/+9/+4

|

+9

|

+4

|

+6

|Martial eq experience +3

15th|

+15/+10/+5

|

+9

|

+5

|

+7

|-

16th|

+16/+11/+6/+1

|

+10

|

+5

|

+7

|Prove manhood 3/day

17th|

+17/+12/+7/+2

|

+10

|

+5

|

+8

|Inspiring aura

18th|

+18/+13/+8/+3

|

+11

|

+6

|

+8

|Bonus feat

19th|

+19/+14/+9/+4

|

+11

|

+6

|

+8

|Shield block +3

20th|

+20/+15/+10/+5

|

+12

|

+6

|

+9

|Martial eq experience +4, Prove knighthood.[/table]


Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons as well as one exotic weapon of their choice. and with all armor and shields (including tower shields).

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the squire.

(((( everything is optional in a way of course but this in particular ))))

(((( "squire without EQ is no squire" In addition to any starting capital or gear, roll a D% to determine if a former master has given you a masterwork melee weapon your are proficient with, or a masterwork medium armor

"Looking darn good in this" In addition to simply looking dashly in armor on a steed, a squire can put half an hour’s work putting a shine on his armor and gear that lasts 24 hours giving him/her a +1 charisma modifier bonus towards all somewhat civilized life forms (yes orcs included..) when wearing it. +2 when mounted, ))))



"Martial equipment experience" At level 2 a squire is so used to handling his masters and his own weapon and armor that, if given options in choosing his weapons and time to customize handles, refit and/or add straps to armor or weapons to his own style, strength and size; these weapons are regarded as +1 to attack and damage roll, armor's max dex mod is raised by +0/+1/+1/+2, armor check penalty reduced by 1, and saddles, reins etc gives the squire +1 to ride, the squire is also given +4/+8/+12/+16 to appraise checks on weapons and armors he is proficient with. At level 8 all the +1 bonuses above are increased to +2, at level 14th to +3 and level 20th to +4 or otherwise mentioned. This also applies to someone whose every fighting aspect the Squire has excessive knowledge of, with few exeptions this would be his master knight if having served under him for a significant period of time, but could also be someone the squire has fought with extensively or studied for other reasons, although at -1 (minimum +1 bonus) from the gear the squires customizes for himself. Although they must be of equal or higher level than when the squire acquires this ability to gain the benefit (+2,+3 and +4 levels to get those benefits as well).

"Squires mount" A long service as squire, never quite reaching knighthood is common. During long years of mopping horse **** a deep bond is often formed between a squire and the horses he cares for, in the sorrow of losing a close friend in arms such as your warhorse, the Squires mount ability is born. Out of fear of having to suffer this pain again, the squire can summon an immortal mount from the spirit realm, For all intense and purposes "Squires mount" is treated as a paladins "special mount"

Armor Mastery (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, you are able to wear your armor like a second skin and ignore the standard speed reduction for wearing medium armor. Starting at 9th level, you ignore the speed reduction imposed by heavy armor as well. When running in heavy armor, you move only triple your speed, not quadruple.

Shield Ally (Ex): Starting at 6th level, as an immediate action you can opt to absorb part of the damage dealt to an adjacent ally. Each time this ally takes damage from a physical attack before your next turn,
You can take half this damage on yourself. The target takes the other half as normal. You can only absorb damage from physical melee attacks and ranged attacks, such as an incoming arrow or a blow from a sword, not from spells and other effects. Also, a squire can add his shield's AC against ranged attacks made against an ally if they are positioned so that the squire's threatened squares are in the ammunitions flight path, the attack must be made from at least 50 feet and assuming that the squire has knowledge of the archers presence, forsaking the use of his shield for any other use including AC bonus for himself until the end of his next turn, this can be used as an immediate action combined or without the use of shield ally.

Shield Block (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, you excel in using your armor and shield to frustrate your enemy’s attacks. During your action, designate a single opponent as the target of this ability.
Your shield bonus to AC against that foe increases by 1, as you move your shield to deflect an incoming blow, possibly providing just enough protection to turn a telling swing into a near miss.

"Prove manhood": At level 9th the squires desire to show everyone that he and not only his masters are devastating on the battle field shines through, aiming to put down a foe with one furious strike he yells a battle cry and attacks. With a swift action you can channel your strength to enhance one attack you make that round, your opponent is freezed by your battle cry and loses equal to your (Cha) modifier to his AC until the end of your turn and damage roll is given a +1d6 per three CLASS levels. The squire takes -2 to his ac until his next turn. This ability can only be used 2/day at level 9th or 3/day if he has the willpower - (Wis) mod >= +3. Starting at level 16th increases to 3/day / 4/day

"Prove knighthood": At level 20th the squires desire to show everyone that he has now become the master shines through, aiming to put down a foe with one furious strike he yells a battlecry and attacks. With a swift action you can channel your strength to enhance one attack you make that round, your opponent is freezed by your battle cry and loses equal to your (Cha) modifier to his AC untill end of your turn and damage roll is given a +1d6 per two CLASS levels. The squire takes -2 to his ac until his next turn. The squire can use this ability 3/day or 4/day if he has the willpower - (Wis) mod >= +3.

"Trusting aura": At level 6 the Squire's mere presence (while mounted) inspires any horses he has bonded with to try harder. Any horses befriended (traveled with for 1 day or otherwise cared for or ridden for 2 hours) by the squire within 30ft is given 2 bonus + squires(Cha) modifier to attack and damage rolls(max 4, no limit for the squire's mount), they are imune to fear and given +10 bonus to speed

"Inspiring Aura": At level 17 the Squire's mere presence (while mounted) inspires any horses he has bonded with to try harder. Any horses befriended (traveled with for 1 day or otherwise cared for or ridden for 2 hours) by the squire within 40ft is given 4 bonus + squires(Cha) modifier x2 to attack and damage rolls (max 6, no limit for the squire's mount) they are immune to fear and given +20 bonus to speed

"Armor break": The squire may attack worn armor to ruin it, you only have to substract half the armors hardness to your damage and are given +5 damage per attacks you would normally have to mail and plate armors due to design exploits. Using knowledge of the armors design, you need to use a full round action to slash at the correct spots. After sundering the armor, the armor still provides half its original AC bonus, but at another -2 to armor check penalty (unless it is light armor) and -2 to max dex modifier (unless it is light armor).

"Armorgeddon": The squire may attack worn armor to ruin it, you may ignore the armors hardness and you are given +8 damage per attacks you would normally have to mail and plate armors (chain shirt included) due to design exploits. Using knowledge of the armors design, you need to use a full round action to slash at the correct spots. After sundering the armor, the armor still provides half its original AC bonus, but at another -2 to armor check penalty (unless it is light armor) and -2 to max dex modifier (unless it is light armor).



* - If the subject of shield ally is a knight, cavalier or a paladin, the shield ally will work as improved shield ally, meaning full damage absorption.




Other notes



Bold stuff is made up stuff.

Nobody limits your Roleplaying, I for one will not play as someone's servant, but rather use that part of squire for background. And play a young man aspiring to be a knight. you don't have to be the class knight to roleplay being a knight in some order of whatever.


Additionally, I should add that this campain houserules Shields to be +2 AC for light, +4 for heavy and +6 for towershield. also adding a shield ability that everyone can use. the balance of this ability has not been tested alot..

Shield Bash: When making a charge with a shield equipped you can use your momentum to slam your shield into the victim of the charge. If the bash hits (attackroll +2), the target has to make a DC 10+(½attackers character level + Str mod + Size mod) Fortitude save or become Dazed for 1 round.(until just before your next action) The targets size mod applies to the save. A shield
gives him a +2 circumstance bonus on the save. The attacker may not make an attack against the target.

Improved shield bash (Feat) Pre req: Base attack bonus +6: When making a charge with a shield equipped you can use your momentum to slam your shield into the victim of the charge. If the bash hits (attackroll +2), the target has to make a DC 12+(½attackers character level + Str mod + Size mod) Fortitude save or become Dazed for 1 round (until just before your next action). The targets size mod applies to the
save. A shield gives him a +2 circumstance bonus on the save. The attacker may also make a attack against the target at his full base attack bonus(but does not gain +2 for the charge)

NOTE: Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be dazed.

This is because I think shields suck in the original rules and, to do something more with a shield you should not have to twoweaponfightingfeats+shieldfeats specc your char completely.

The effects of the ability is born from all those movie/book scenes we all know where hundreds of footsoldiers charge eachother on a field, then their shieldwalls clash and there is a big kaboom and everyone starts dying. Now imagine your self in the first line, without a shield.. at the precise moment the shields make big boom headon collision... ugghh!

[Frog Dragon]

is this D20r? It has Skill Sets and Prowess. What does Fax think?

[Killer Angel]

So this is the squire, i'ts an idea for a campain wer having, so it might not be universally balanced.

mmm...
I know it's not the answer you're looking for, but...
Why on earth one would like to play a squire? Usually, a player wants to shine by himself, not to be someone's servant.
A squire of 20th lev.... well, i don't know. I cannot imagine it.

What kind of campaign is yours?

[raszmo]

Well I use d20r, so when i make up a class i'm going to use d20r rules. It is in no way an involuntary addition to anyones creation. This is for everyone to use as they see fit. All creds for d20r as he originally created it goes to Fax.

[Jallorn]

I dunno. Level 20 seems kinda high for a squire. I'd think this'd be a 5 level base class and when you take level 6, you take a knight class.

[raszmo]

I dunno. Level 20 seems kinda high for a squire. I'd think this'd be a 5 level base class and when you take level 6, you take a knight class.

There is also the Cavalier prestige class. would fit nicely

[Tiak]

well in real life some squires never became knights (usually for money reasons) and they stayed squires for they're entire lives. so in that respect a 20th level squire makes sense.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

well in real life some squires never became knights (usually for money reasons) and they stayed squires for they're entire lives. so in that respect a 20th level squire makes sense.

Well, real-life people work out to around 5th level in D&D terms, so a person who spends their whole life as a squire would be well-represented by a 5-level base class.

[Tiak]

well none of the people i've played with have ever made it past level 5 without muliclassing anyway (or dying). but you do have a good point. however if you think of squires from works of fiction (Sancho from The Man of La mancha) there could be someone who would want to gain mastery of being a squire and therefore go to at least level 10 (unless i'm just missing you're point )

edit:level 20 might be too high for the squire (now that i think about it), but i still believe the idea of a 20th level squire is plausible if you look to history and literature.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

however if you think of squires from works of fiction (Sancho from The Man of La mancha) there could be someone who would want to gain mastery of being a squire and therefore go to at least level 10 (unless i'm just missing you're point )

I think you are missing the point. Anyone in the real world can be represented by a character of ~6th level or lower, so Sancho Panza, Tonto, and other realistic sidekicks wouldn't need to be above that level no matter how competent they are. 7th-10th level is getting into Hercules or Odysseus territory--legendary heroes that can accomplish superhuman feats. If you're above level 5, you're not going to be a squire.

[Tiak]

that is the main problem, until right now i had no idea of how the character level would translate into real life. based on what you just said a 20th level squire wouldn't make sense (even when compared to history and books like i said).

[PairO'Dice Lost]

that is the main problem, until right now i had no idea of how the character level would translate into real life. based on what you just said a 20th level squire wouldn't make sense (even when compared to history and books like i said).

This is a frequently-referenced essay that does an excellent comparison of real-world benchmarks with 3e mechanics and tries to dispel the "Awesomeness = 20th level" concept.

[sigurd]

I think you are missing the point.

I completely disagree.

Whats wrong with planning a 20 level squire progression?

A player that doesn't want to be a squire when they can be a knight is no different than a monk who doesn't want to be an abbot, or a paladin that doesn't want to be a patriarch.

History is full of squires that were never recognized to become knights either because they were low born or just too poor. A sixth level squire might become a fitting man at arms. He\she doesn't attend court and isn't tied to the politics of being a knight.

I think it would be a great idea to have a character who stayed adventuring and never took the oath of knighthood because they wanted to travel and not declare their loyalties.

Perhaps they reject the stature of those who offer themselves as 'Noble'. Maybe the only knight the squire will ever serve is dead or imprisoned and they will never leave service and abandon their knight? Lots of roles for wandering squires who never leave the ranks of the people.

How about this for a career breakdown.

1-3 - Traditional Squire (the wealthy or connected usually become knights)
4-7 - Squire in hard service - its a tough world and fighting is more important than promotion
8-12 - The squire is a recognized weapons master and excellent trainer of men. He\she may or may not have received knighthood as a title but nonetheless he rejects politics for combat and training new warriors.
13+ - The squire has rejected the allure of the upper crust. His 'master' is likely either a lost cause or missing for some reason - sort of like the masterless samurai.

In some ways a squire could be a much more fun character than a noble knight.

More importantly, there's always room to offer a new class progression. The worst that happens is the players depart from it - they're going to do that anyway with any class. DMs certainly appreciate them for making up NPCs - In my campaign players usually only dip into the fighter class but the progression is useful anyway. My NPCs might be high level fighters\warriors.


Sigurd

[Clementx]

In addition to confusing what power levels this archetype had, you are also confusing nobility with class choice. Anyone can take levels in Knight (PH2), and it does not come with a title. Anyone can be granted a title, in any class. What would happen to a squire who got one? Or are you forcing players to make long-term RP restrictions on how important they are based on class choice?

A lvl20 character of any class can be a social nobody. If you feel the need to use something different than Fighter, Paladin, or Knight for barely-trained servants, use Expert or Warrior.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I completely disagree.

I don't see why, because he was missing my point. If you disagree with the point itself, you quoted the wrong place.

Whats wrong with planning a 20 level squire progression?

A player that doesn't want to be a squire when they can be a knight is no different than a monk who doesn't want to be an abbot, or a paladin that doesn't want to be a patriarch.

History is full of squires that were never recognized to become knights either because they were low born or just too poor. A sixth level squire might become a fitting man at arms. He\she doesn't attend court and isn't tied to the politics of being a knight.

But what does a 6th+ level squire do? A 20th-level fighter is absolute master of the sword, a 20th-level cleric is a god's most favored servant, a 20th-level squire...? "Man-at-arms" and "guy who helps a knight put on his armor" are low-level concepts. If you have levels in a squire class and you're walking around with a 20th level party, you're either not 20th level or not a squire anymore.

I think it would be a great idea to have a character who stayed adventuring and never took the oath of knighthood because they wanted to travel and not declare their loyalties.

Perhaps they reject the stature of those who offer themselves as 'Noble'. Maybe the only knight the squire will ever serve is dead or imprisoned and they will never leave service and abandon their knight? Lots of roles for wandering squires who never leave the ranks of the people.

How about this for a career breakdown.

1-3 - Traditional Squire (the wealthy or connected usually become knights)
4-7 - Squire in hard service - its a tough world and fighting is more important than promotion
8-12 - The squire is a recognized weapons master and excellent trainer of men. He\she may or may not have received knighthood as a title but nonetheless he rejects politics for combat and training new warriors.
13+ - The squire has rejected the allure of the upper crust. His 'master' is likely either a lost cause or missing for some reason - sort of like the masterless samurai.

In some ways a squire could be a much more fun character than a noble knight.

A wandering squire can just as easily be a squire/rogue or squire bard; a trainer can be a squire/fighter; etc. The squire concept doesn't really offer anything unique after a certain point.

[raszmo]

I don't see why you are so limited in your views of this.

Even if you assume a squire character will start out in a knights employment, It could be much more than the booring picture you draw.

I can be a squire who is a brother in adventure to his master, equals on the battlefield, more in alligience to eachother than to anything else. as for playing the campain without the master, I could have been trusted to go on a mission for my master, something that could become personal sidequest for my character , or save him. or it can have nothing to do with a master.

Obviously it would be no fun if your some poor servant, so make it epic, the squire could have been trained in the art of war from a young age in some school the master knight has, or by him self. There are examples of squirelike positions in our history where a warriors closest man is skilled in his own right, and still having important, yet servantish duties.

as for why its a class at all, i just think it's more fun to figure out abilities that has some logical support from a background and i saw alot of opportunity for abilities in squire. the RP is up to you.

[Tengu_temp]

I don't see any point in this class. Why not just be a fighter, knight or another fitting martial class? What's the point in multiplying classes, creating a new one for each and every character concept, when old ones can be utilized to fit these concepts perfectly fine?

[Calmar]

I'm afraid the squire relates to figher and paladin as an apprentice relates to the wizard. It wouldn't be convincing to me, if a character with 20 levels in an "apprentice" class would be supposed to be as powerful as a lvl 20 wizard. As far as I see it the same applies to the squire compared to the fighter or paladin.

[Jergmo]

When I hear "squire" I think "level 1 commoner". Maybe if the squire does manage to prove himself over time, he can trade his commoner levels for something else? I don't feel good about the idea of insulting your work, but the class seems silly. I was given the impression the sole job of the squire is to help the knight out of that full plate (not to mention clean the fecal matter out of it, because you can't take the whole five minutes to get out of the armor (with help at that) to take a potty break, to hold his standard for special occasions, and to take care of his horse. A squire started at age 13-14, and the base adult age for a human is 15, and something like a fighter requires that you be 18 on average. So I'd think the squire would be a commoner until that age.

[Boci]

the RP is up to you.

But you've already decided that there is a RP aspect to this class. Infact, that is the only thing that makes it stand out. As soon as you play a warblade called a squire because he has servintist duties, this class ceases to have a reason to be played.

[Strawman]

I like the idea of a high level squire. Think squire - knight just like Alfred - Batman. Or Riker - Picard. There are some really impressive people that purposely stay in a number 2 position when they are capable of leading somewhere else.

The important part when rp'ing a high level squire is to have a beleivable person to be in service to. Someone truly incredible themselves, or someone symbolic of a greater ideal.

Edit- There may need to be changes to the class so that it stands out in function, and not just in rp'ing.

[Jergmo]

I like the idea of a high level squire. Think squire - knight just like Alfred - Batman. Or Riker - Picard. There are some really impressive people that purposely stay in a number 2 position when they are capable of leading somewhere else.

The important part when rp'ing a high level squire is to have a beleivable person to be in service to. Someone truly incredible themselves, or someone symbolic of a greater ideal.

Edit- There may need to be changes to the class so that it stands out in function, and not just in rp'ing.

Alfred is a level five Battle Butler. *Nodnod*

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I don't see why you are so limited in your views of this.

Even if you assume a squire character will start out in a knights employment, It could be much more than the booring picture you draw.

I can be a squire who is a brother in adventure to his master, equals on the battlefield, more in alligience to eachother than to anything else. as for playing the campain without the master, I could have been trusted to go on a mission for my master, something that could become personal sidequest for my character , or save him. or it can have nothing to do with a master.

This is very true. These characters, however, are not squires; they are competent fighting men in their own right who happen to serve in a subservient capacity.

Obviously it would be no fun if your some poor servant, so make it epic, the squire could have been trained in the art of war from a young age in some school the master knight has, or by him self. There are examples of squirelike positions in our history where a warriors closest man is skilled in his own right, and still having important, yet servantish duties.

...i.e., he's a fighter.

I like the idea of a high level squire. Think squire - knight just like Alfred - Batman. Or Riker - Picard. There are some really impressive people that purposely stay in a number 2 position when they are capable of leading somewhere else.

"Capable of leading somewhere else" = "Not a squire." A squire is defined by his incapacity to lead, fight, or otherwise perform on his own, needing a period of apprenticeship and service to a knight to finish up his learning. Alfred may be a rogue/expert/factotum/[other skilled class], but he's not a squire.

[Strawman]

I don't think it's important to base squires entirely off of their historical counterparts. Imagine if clerics or paladins were based off of their real life counterparts.

This could be something new, something that at least some people have already found interesting.

[sigurd]

Wow.

'Squire' is a name that is both part of the game and part of history. Whats wrong with another, perhaps historical, interpretation for a class? Personally, I think the viewpoint is interesting. Certainly there have been real squires that actually were poor fighters that might have taken other roles or (commonly) got on with their life but stayed a squire.

I'm not taking anything away from what other people who choose to name bits of their game world but I think its unkind to tell anyone else that their class doesn't work because that name is already taken.

If there is a way to think of something that adds to a game world I'm all in favour of people following their inspiration to express it clearly. How many classes rework monsters, or other concepts?

How literal is your game world anyway? Do your characters or NPC's walk around with labels that say '7th level Ranger'?

If your interpretation is interesting I'd like to see it.


You can follow any interpretation you want for labels 'Apprentice', 'Squire', 'Wizard', etc. etc....

Sigurd

[PairO'Dice Lost]

You can follow any interpretation you want for labels 'Apprentice', 'Squire', 'Wizard', etc. etc....

Here's the issue, though. What does a wizard do? Well, wizards work magic, which can handle concepts from beginning apprentice to archmage. What does a fighter do? He fights really well, which can handle concepts from beginning conscript to absolute master of the sword. What does a squire do? He serves a knight really well, which...doesn't handle much beyond the first few levels. Yes, squires can fight...but that's better represented as a multiclass into fighter or ranger or rogue or whatever, since there's really no "squire fighting style" like there is the "fighters are tactical" style or the "rogues are sneaky" style. Yes, squires are general handyman servants...but that's better represented as a multiclass into a skilled class, since there's really no "squire skill set" like there is the "wizards are smart" skill set or the "rogues are good with their hands" skill set.

So while squire as a concept is an interesting one, it isn't a concept that really supports a full 20-level base class.

[sigurd]

I can applaud your definitions but they are not necessarily universal.

The issue is that someone is following an idea and being told to stop because of a subjective competing idea. The written game definition of a 'squire' is certainly not the only definition in play. Your understanding of the term may deny another interpretation by you but its not a reason for someone to stop if they don't share your interpretation. Telling them so is wrong.

You may make a case for the existing squire (a level title) and not use the new class but then don't rain on someone else. I don't know if there is a logical 20 level class for the squire but if someone wants to make one I'd be interested in seeing it.


Here's the bones a class more directed at being a servant to a great house than a knight's lap dog.


A Squire Class:

Squires are the lowest level of landed gentry. They have been selected for personal service to the wealthy or powerful. Any wealth enjoyed by a squire is returned to their masters at their death. The dream of many squires is to be elevated to the role of knight. Squires are usually devoted to combat but may serve other roles as required by their masters. Most spend their life in service to their patrons will or fate. Loyal squires are trusted with sensitive matters and may command great power in the name of their lord.

Squires in service typically multiclass with great care. If they lose the support of their patron they may not advance in this class and they lose any material benefits until they find an equal or greater patron.

(In this incarnation the squire is sort of a deletant or 'secret agent' in the service of a great house. Skills and abilities might be less martial and more administrative\rogue like.)

Very rough idea of progression.

Levels 1-5 - progress as a fighter**
- 3-5 might be the normal exit to knighthood
Levels 6-10 - progress as a rogue
- Here the squire is actually attending to the politics or interests of the Patron. He has demonstrated his martial ability and must now develop his role as a leader.
Levels 11-20 - progress as a Paladin?
- This is a second sort of career, largely determined by the needs of his patron. By now they have become too useful in their leadership to simply swing a sword. He\she might be asked to research a secret or train men or .... This is usually some great task that is the lifes work of the squire.

** A class would have to smear these abilities around and distribute them smartly. In this view squires would become statesmen or spies not soldiers in the list.

S

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I can applaud your definitions but they are not necessarily universal.

The issue is that someone is following an idea and being told to stop because of a subjective competing idea. The written game definition of a 'squire' is certainly not the only definition in play. Your understanding of the term may deny another interpretation by you but its not a reason for someone to stop if they don't share your interpretation. Telling them so is wrong.

You may make a case for the existing squire (a level title) and not use the new class but then don't rain on someone else. I don't know if there is a logical 20 level class for the squire but if someone wants to make one I'd be interested in seeing it.

1) I'm not saying "Don't make this class," I'm saying "The class as it is now doesn't really justify 20 levels, so either make it shorter or add abilities that would."

2) Currently, this class is somewhat of a mix of a paladin, a marshal, a CW samurai, and someone who specializes in using and attacking armor. None of that really screams "squire," so if you were to use those mechanics and just give the class a different concept, it would probably work better.

Levels 1-5 - progress as a fighter**
- 3-5 might be the normal exit to knighthood
Levels 6-10 - progress as a rogue
- Here the squire is actually attending to the politics or interests of the Patron. He has demonstrated his martial ability and must now develop his role as a leader.
Levels 11-20 - progress as a Paladin?
- This is a second sort of career, largely determined by the needs of his patron. By now they have become to useful in their leadership to simply swing a sword. He\she might be asked to research a secret or train men or

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. If your view of the squire is a noble with plenty of expertise concerning intrigue and spying and such, you can build that with a fighter/rogue/paladin without requiring a "squire" class.