A Wizard with only One School

[CheshireCatAW]

If Wizards were limited to only one school of magic to cast from, would that make them unplayable or would it balance the playing field? How about making a "general" school of magic (which would probably include most divinations) all wizards have access to, but otherwise have them limited to one other school?

Will they still completely overshadow the non-magic types?

[Doc Roc]

I can probably crack your game in half with just conjuration.

[Random832]

The problem is, the schools aren't really balanced to have all of them have equal value. It's just less noticeable when you have access to six of them than it would be with only one.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I can probably crack your game in half with just conjuration.

Sadly, this is probably true.

Still, it would go a long way towards balancing them. The only problem is that then it further magnifies the discrepency between the schools. Conjuration would be a definite winner, while no one would pick Evocation or Divination.

Edit: Ninja'ed.

[Doc Roc]

Sadly, this is probably true.

Still, it would go a long way towards balancing them. The only problem is that then it further magnifies the discrepency between the schools. Conjuration would be a definite winner, while no one would pick Evocation or Divination.

I don't know that it would go terribly far towards balancing them, but it'd help a bit, I guess?

[Indon]

With some school rebalancing (split Conjuration and a couple others into different schools, merge others), it could work out okay.

[CheshireCatAW]

But wouldn't it be easier to balance the schools if they were separated like this since you wouldn't have to think of how, say, conjurations spells worked with Illusion spells and what possible loopholes there might be there? You could focus more on individual schools and it'd be easier to focus on how to fix things or balance them.

By no means am I implying that it'd be easy to fix but making the job "bite size" so to speak, might make it easier to do.

But, back to my actual question, you guys are saying they would probably still be a few tiers above most martial characters, but it wouldn't be as bad as it currently is?

[Morty]

I don't think it would work. Sure, it would make wizards weaker, but also boring and perhaps too weak on low levels unless they choose Conjuration. But since half of the Conjuration school shouldn't exist, it might not be that much of a problem. But it's not a good idea anyway.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I don't know that it would go terribly far towards balancing them, but it'd help a bit, I guess?

Eh, I'd say a good amount. You are, after all, eliminating about...maybe 1/2 to 3/4 (depending on the school selected) of the problem spells. The only issue is that a 50% reduction of a Wizard's versatility still puts him at Tier 1 or 1.5. So he's down by a good bit, but not enough to really matter.

[valadil]

I think it would be interesting if DnD had been designed that way to begin with, but adding that to 3.5 as it is now would result in a silly, broken game.

[CheshireCatAW]

I think it would be interesting if DnD had been designed that way to begin with, but adding that to 3.5 as it is now would result in a silly, broken game.

This, pretty much. I think it'd be cool to have a group of wizards who wouldn't be carbon copies of eachother.

While it might be a difficult job to make work, I can see it making sense thematically.

I mean, we have how many Martial classes? They each have a specialty and for some reason the wizard (which concievably COULD be a few different classes in and of himself) is one class who can use just about every facet of arcane magic.

[Lapak]

I've actually been toying with this as part of my implementation of deities in an E6 campaign - I've been attempting to model them more mythological/traditional, where Thor is an actual physical being, and so is Apollo, even if he does drive the sun around every day. Basically I've been working up various kinds of superhuman level advancement (superhuman for E6) and this is one of methods I've been considering to limit what they can do. Thanks for asking the question!

Something to think about at high levels: there are a number of effects that would allow your casters to work around these limits - people rightly point out Conjuration as covering a lot of ground, there are Shadow Conjurations and Shadow Evocations that jump the divide, Wish and Limited Wish both sidestep the gap - basically, there are strictly superior choices for a wizard either because of the number of options a school gives outright or because one school might allow them to duplicate or imitate other schools. I think that it's a very good idea, but if you're going to make it the rule for all casters you'd have to put some work into balancing the schools a bit.

[Xenogears]

I think a sorcerer would make a good generalist wizard if you implement this idea since they get access to every school but only a few spells. (assuming no method of increasing spells known beyond the basic amount is allowed)

[Thespianus]

I can probably crack your game in half with just conjuration.

Well, Read Magic is Divination, so you might have a problem preparing your spells. ;)

[Indon]

Well, Read Magic is Divination, so you might have a problem preparing your spells. ;)

Even if you restricted cantrips, Wizards get 1 spell every 2 levels, and I'm pretty sure a decent Spellcraft check can be used to read magic.

[Thespianus]

Even if you restricted cantrips, Wizards get 1 spell every 2 levels, and I'm pretty sure a decent Spellcraft check can be used to read magic.

Well, perhaps. It might be a misunderstanding on my behlaf. I thought you needed to be able to cast Read Magic to prepare your spells, but I read through the PHB part about preparing spells, and it doesn't mention this. So I'm probably wrong, I usually am in these matters. ;)

[Random832]

Read Magic would be the first candidate to move to Universal under this system anyway (fun fact: in 2nd edition, Universal was called Lesser Divination)

[bosssmiley]

If Wizards were limited to only one school of magic to cast from, would that make them unplayable or would it balance the playing field? How about making a "general" school of magic (which would probably include most divinations) all wizards have access to, but otherwise have them limited to one other school?

Oh, you mean like the Birthright Magician class? (A Diviner/Illusionist double school specialist, with level 1-2 only access to all other schools) Yeah, they were fun. Almost qualified as a self-imposed challenge class.

[Eldariel]

Sadly, this is probably true.

Still, it would go a long way towards balancing them. The only problem is that then it further magnifies the discrepency between the schools. Conjuration would be a definite winner, while no one would pick Evocation or Divination.

Edit: Ninja'ed.

I do think Divination would be worth picking; it's got a lot of completely irreplaceable abilities (such as Contact Other Plane, Scrying, True Seeing, Greater Prying Eyes, Foresight, Moment of Prescience, etc.) so while it lacks in terms of traditional Wizard-mojo, in combination with some other primary focus, it would still be great. Really, I find Divination to be up there in terms of school simply on back of the power of exclusive effects.

[Bang]

I mean, we have how many Martial classes? They each have a specialty and for some reason the wizard (which concievably COULD be a few different classes in and of himself) is one class who can use just about every facet of arcane magic.

The Wizard is designed to have acess to every facet of arcane magic. It's kind of their schtick.

If you want to create diversity between casters while reducing their power, try basing them on the Warmage model. It's easy to slap together this sort of homebrew: choose two casting stats, choose a list of thematic spells (dropping any which aren't consistant with the power level you want to see in your game), throw a few related class abilities into the mix. Work with players -- let chime in with the abilities they want to see and what sorts of spells they'd like to use.

[Myrmex]

Transmutation is another terrific school. Conjuration is borked 'cause of Gate and Planar Binding.

[Godskook]

Eh, I'd say a good amount. You are, after all, eliminating about...maybe 1/2 to 3/4 (depending on the school selected) of the problem spells. The only issue is that a 50% reduction of a Wizard's versatility still puts him at Tier 1 or 1.5. So he's down by a good bit, but not enough to really matter.

If sorcerers are tier 2, 1-school wizards shouldn't be any higher, and are probably slightly lower. I'd say 2.5.

[CheshireCatAW]

The Wizard is designed to have acess to every facet of arcane magic. It's kind of their schtick.

Yes, but it's only their schtick because the game says so. In my limited perception of the rules, it seems to be a major reason for why the Wizard is oodles of rungs above and beyond it's competitors.

[Kobold-Bard]

Beguiler - Enchantment/Illusion
Dread Necromancer - Necromancy
Warmage - Evocation
Savant - Abjuration/Divination
Summoner - Conjuration
Rearranger - Transmutation

Bottom three courtesy of arguskos. Of course for these to work you need to ban Wizards as PC classes, otherwise there's no reason to play any of these.

[Myrmex]

Yes, but it's only their schtick because the game says so. In my limited perception of the rules, it seems to be a major reason for why the Wizard is oodles of rungs above and beyond it's competitors.

It wouldn't be a problem if there weren't so many overpowered spells.

But a wizard's daily spell load out and a sorcerer's spells known looks surprisingly similar.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Well, as the beguiler, dread necromancer, and warmage show, limiting spell selection to a thematic grouping can work rather well. The key word here is a thematic grouping--just because Conjuration spells are all in the same school doesn't mean they have anything in common beyond that (web and orb of electricity, summon monster IV and teleport, etc. are similar in effect and method, but wildly different in "theme").

[Yuki Akuma]

I can crack your game in half as a Gnome who only has Illusion.

Because then I get two and a half schools! >.> <.<

(Yes I do love Shadowcraft Mages. And, for that matter, Shadow Evocation and Shadow COnjuration.)

[arguskos]

Beguiler - Enchantment/Illusion
Dread Necromancer - Necromancy
Warmage - Evocation
Savant - Abjuration/Divination
Summoner - Conjuration
Rearranger - Transmutation

Bottom three courtesy of arguskos. Of course for these to work you need to ban Wizards as PC classes, otherwise there's no reason to play any of these.

YAY! I'm getting attention!

Anyways, I do think that school-based casters are quite nice and enjoyable. They're around Tier 3 in practice, which is totally fine, and is the sweet spot of D&D 3.5, in my opinion.

[Myrmex]

I can crack your game in half as a Gnome who only has Illusion.

What if there are no gnomes in my game?

[CheshireCatAW]

Beguiler - Enchantment/Illusion
Dread Necromancer - Necromancy
Warmage - Evocation
Savant - Abjuration/Divination
Summoner - Conjuration
Rearranger - Transmutation

Bottom three courtesy of arguskos. Of course for these to work you need to ban Wizards as PC classes, otherwise there's no reason to play any of these.

This is a good example of what I'm thinking of. Has anyone used them and noticed that the Wizard was closer in power levels to the rest of the group? Or perhaps that they have fallen behind?

Well, as the beguiler, dread necromancer, and warmage show, limiting spell selection to a thematic grouping can work rather well. The key word here is a thematic grouping--just because Conjuration spells are all in the same school doesn't mean they have anything in common beyond that (web and orb of electricity, summon monster IV and teleport, etc. are similar in effect and method, but wildly different in "theme").

Now, this logic might work when you're a Necromancer trying to find any way to make more undead or the like, but these are Wizards. The primary thing that differenciates them from Sorcerors are that they can go to school! I mean, when I see a Wizard school in my mind, I see Conjuration 101. The theme for each class would, in fact, be the school.

Hmm... interesting thought. Perhaps while Wizards are restricted to single schools, Sorcerors could be restircted to themes? A good bit harder to put together, but it has the option to be more diverse initially and still be limited.