[3.5] What's wrong with the Spelltheif?

[Myou]

A recent thread reminded me of them so I looked them up. they certainly don't seem as powerful as a caster, and stuff like stealing energy resistance seems a bit weak, but at the same time, they seem to be better than the rogue in almost every way.

So why don't they see more use? Are all of their extra class features worth less than Uncanny Dodge/Evasion?

[Draz74]

*casts Summon Fax*

[Fax Celestis]

Absolutely nothing. You just shouldn't play them the same way as rogues.

[Myou]

*casts Summon Fax*

Absolutely nothing. You just shouldn't play them the same way as rogues.

That's a little creepy. xD

I'm surprised to see that you seem to have the same opinion I had about the class when I read it first last year. So given all these great abilities, why is it shunned?

Also, why shouldn't you play it like a rogue? It seems to be rogue+.

[Fax Celestis]

A rogue is a skillmonkey/trapmonkey/sneak-attacker. A spellthief isn't so much. Their shtick should be UMD and clever combat (which you can do with a rogue), but their damage output is going to be much less than a rogue--partially due to slower SA progression, partially due to sacrificing it whenever possible. The spellthief also doesn't have access to some of the better ACFs that rogues can get access to (like Arcane Deflection or Penetrating Strike).

Rather, a spellthief is going to be much more focused on inflicting status effects that render his targets eligible for sneak attack (blind, stunned, paralyzed, etc). So, in 4e terms: a rogue is a Striker, whereas a spellthief is a Controller (not really, but you know what I mean).

As far as modifications, an argument can be made for replacing their halfcasting with a bonus fighter feat every four levels (since Paladins and Rangers get the same alternative in CCham), which makes them much more capable in a stand-up fight.

[Myou]

A rogue is a skillmonkey/trapmonkey/sneak-attacker. A spellthief isn't so much. Their shtick should be UMD and clever combat (which you can do with a rogue), but their damage output is going to be much less than a rogue--partially due to slower SA progression, partially due to sacrificing it whenever possible. The spellthief also doesn't have access to some of the better ACFs that rogues can get access to (like Arcane Deflection or Penetrating Strike).

Rather, a spellthief is going to be much more focused on inflicting status effects that render his targets eligible for sneak attack (blind, stunned, paralyzed, etc). So, in 4e terms: a rogue is a Striker, whereas a spellthief is a Controller (not really, but you know what I mean).

As far as modifications, an argument can be made for replacing their halfcasting with a bonus fighter feat every four levels (since Paladins and Rangers get the same alternative in CCham), which makes them much more capable in a stand-up fight.

Hmmm, that makes sense to me. I hadn't noticed that the SA progreson was slower. :3

Thanks, Fax.

I'm thinking about playing one some time now.

[Fax Celestis]

Something I've been rolling around my head is a Carmendine Monk/Duskblade/Spellthief (and if you can, get the East Wind Training feat from the War of the Burning Sky adventure). I'm not sure I can make it work, but I may be able to rig it.

I'm just trying to figure how having both Carmendine Monk and Ascetic Mage would work.

EDIT: Monk 3/Duskblade 3/Spellthief 4/Enlightened Fist 10. Take East Wind Training, Master Spellthief, Ascetic Mage. Pump Cha. East Wind Training lets you spend a Stunning Fist attempt to cast shocking grasp as part of your attack. Stunned creatures are sneakable.

Stunning fist + shocking grasp + arcane channeled vampiric touch (or something) = sneak attacking lifedraining thieving taser fists of destiny

[Jalor]

Also, why shouldn't you play it like a rogue? It seems to be rogue+.

Because it's a control class, not a glass cannon. People treat it like a mage killer, but it's actually a mage exploiter. Yoink buff spells from the enemy Cleric and stick them on your Barbarian.

If you want to be cheesy, you can take the War Weaver PrC. You can steal spells from willing targets, and the War Weaver allows you to buff the whole party with a single-target spell. Take every single buff the Cleric and Wizard prepared and stick them on everyone. If you can get Incantatrix, that's even better; everyone's buffs will last all day.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Fun Tricks for Spell Thieves:

Trap enemy casters in antimagic shackles. Each day, have them prepare spells, then steal the best ones. You can keep them in a bag of holding with a bottle of air!

As a caster, get a Spell Thief cohort. Ever wanted to Solid Fog + Web someone at 7th level? Now its possible. If you know what spells you want them to cast ahead of time, you effectively double your spell per round output.

[Cieyrin]

Something I've been rolling around my head is a Carmendine Monk/Duskblade/Spellthief (and if you can, get the East Wind Training feat from the War of the Burning Sky adventure). I'm not sure I can make it work, but I may be able to rig it.

I'm just trying to figure how having both Carmendine Monk and Ascetic Mage would work.

EDIT: Monk 3/Duskblade 3/Spellthief 4/Enlightened Fist 10. Take East Wind Training, Master Spellthief, Ascetic Mage. Pump Cha. East Wind Training lets you spend a Stunning Fist attempt to cast shocking grasp as part of your attack. Stunned creatures are sneakable.

Stunning fist + shocking grasp + arcane channeled vampiric touch (or something) = sneak attacking lifedraining thieving taser fists of destiny

I was gonna say, Fax, why Carmedine Monk over Kung Fu Genius?

[Adumbration]

Something I've been rolling around my head is a Carmendine Monk/Duskblade/Spellthief (and if you can, get the East Wind Training feat from the War of the Burning Sky adventure). I'm not sure I can make it work, but I may be able to rig it.

I'm just trying to figure how having both Carmendine Monk and Ascetic Mage would work.

EDIT: Monk 3/Duskblade 3/Spellthief 4/Enlightened Fist 10. Take East Wind Training, Master Spellthief, Ascetic Mage. Pump Cha. East Wind Training lets you spend a Stunning Fist attempt to cast shocking grasp as part of your attack. Stunned creatures are sneakable.

Stunning fist + shocking grasp + arcane channeled vampiric touch (or something) = sneak attacking lifedraining thieving taser fists of destiny

Question: how does spellthief contribute to this build?

[Tequila Sunrise]

What's wrong with the spellthief?

It should be a PrC. Stealing spells is a pretty narrow concept, arguably more so than the paladin. But that's an aesthetic issue that doesn't seem to bother many people, so here's another: At 1st level when you're fighting mostly unclassed humanoids, the ability to steal spells sucks unless your DM goes out of his way to provide [non-pushover] caster foes. At 20th level when most foes and their mothers have at least a dozen SLAs, the ability to steal spells rocks. Arguably more than actually casting spells yourself, as you've got more skill points and other dirty tricks than the bloke you're robbing.

If the spellthief were a PrC, some really creative fluff could be attached to it and it'd bypass the low level suckitude issue.

[The Glyphstone]

Fun Tricks for Spell Thieves:

Trap enemy casters in antimagic shackles. Each day, have them prepare spells, then steal the best ones. You can keep them in a bag of holding with a bottle of air!

I suppose if you managed to steal a Dominate Person from them and hit them with their own Dominate, you could keep having them prepare a Dominate to steal and other yummy spells...but without mental control, how would you be coercing them into preparing spells just so you can steal them?

[Eldariel]

I was gonna say, Fax, why Carmedine Monk over Kung Fu Genius?

It's a strictly better feat, coming with the option of buffing your effective Monk-level for some abilities some time per day.

[lsfreak]

Question: how does spellthief contribute to this build?

Take Master Spellthief, and Spellthief and other-arcane-class-x levels stack to determine the level of spells you can steal; the spell resist stealing doesn't stack but stealing 10 should let any of your spells get through.

[T.G. Oskar]

Question: how does spellthief contribute to this build?

You'd be stealing spells as a 17th level caster, so you can use those 17 spell levels you've absorbed to cast the spells without using your own spell slots. That's one of the reasons you'd get Spellthief: if you can steal a spell and save those spell slots, you can use those spells instead of your own spell slots to power important spells. It's already bad that a Wizard can cast Wish; imagine how worse it would be if it used the spell slots of other people, and managed to get another use of Wish with three rounds and a slave of spell slots. Cheese points if it's a Sorcerer cohort, and it willingly provides those spells.

Of course, that's not the point in here, but Duskblade gets up to 5th level spells, which you can reserve by using the deadly attack to steal one spell of high level against a caster and using that to fuel other spells.

There's a build that I have tried to do with Spellthief, although it's a tad ridiculous. Mostly, it's a build based off Bard + Sublime Chord to take advantage of near 9th level spellcasting, then use Spellthief and Arcane Trickster, work the CL to be 20th (and thus take full advantage of Master Spellthief) and get the right spells to use those stolen slots. I figured it was somewhere between Spellthief 11/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Trickster 7, which would leave the character with 8th level spells, a theoretical CL 20 because of Master Spellthief, a decent amount of Sneak Attack (7d6) for whenever needed, spells such as Blink or Greater Invisibility for the spell theft (and Impromptu Sneak Attack to start the battle stealing the potentially dangerous spells), and UMD for all the needs the Spellthief can't cover. The Bard level covers a double purpose, since it grants the Sublime Chord requirement of Bardic Music (and the same 6+Int skill points for the intensive prereqs of Sublime Chord), plus the 0-level spell Mage Hand for Arcane Trickster.

It also opens the Spellthief to pull every now and then the Dragonfire Devastation if prepared for it, by attempting to max Inspire Courage as best as possible and adding that to Sneak Attack and even the Arcane Strike damage.

Feat-wise, the character would be a bit challenged. Arcane Strike for extra damage and attack bonus, perhaps Song of the Heart for pumped Inspire Courage, definitely Master Spellthief for the trick to work as intended...but afterwards, it's a bit of a challenge to determine what else (Weapon Finesse?). If going for Dragonfire Inspiration, then the prereqs for it (which are about two more feats). Perhaps even a need to stretch Open Mind in order to comply with the stringent prerequisites of Sublime Chord (which should be nightmarish to achieve, even with 6 + Int skill points).

The last quirk would be using a Gnome instead of a human, even if it's technically murder. Con would be decent, Str wouldn't be much of a necessity, and Wis can be shelved a bit.

I know it's a bit off-topic, but any assistance? I wouldn't mind it being PMed, so as to not break the topic any further. In either case, that would be pushing a bit the gimmick the Spellthief has. It has less Sneak Attack dice than a Rogue, and it doesn't eclipse the Rogue at its main job (being the skill monkey), but it compensates with its spell theft gimmick (and enhancements), and the limited spellcasting. Also, it is one of the few classes with the best limited spell list of all classes, something which the developers should have implemented with later classes and even as an errata to earlier classes (such as the Warmage). If you play it as a Rogue with some spells, it will fail at it despite the fact that eventually it'll get Blink and Greater Invisibility and most of the Wizard's defensive spells (but later on it's lifetime). If you play it as a mage-killer, even faster; you need to be very, very, very good to defeat a Wizard, and it almost always implies trying to out-initiative it and hope to hit it once before it rains death upon you, so that you can steal a crucial spell on its list (just one of the many it can steal, mind you) But, if you put the steal spell ability to good use, it should be a very good class.

So no, there's nothing particularly wrong with the Spellthief, except that you can't expect it to kill a spellcaster (only inconvenience it), and you can't expect it to replace a Rogue. But on being creative with what it steals? Count on that.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Take Master Spellthief, and Spellthief and other-arcane-class-x levels stack to determine the level of spells you can steal; the spell resist stealing doesn't stack but stealing 10 should let any of your spells get through.

Furthermore, Master Spellthief lets you cast in light armor at no ACF, which makes it better than a dip in Spellsword, as you can then take a feat to cast at no ACF in medium armor, and run around in Mithral Full Plate.

Something like Rogue1/Spellthief1/Wiz5/Arcane Trickster10/Archmage3.

Or you can do Early Entry shenanigans with Precocious Apprentice and Sanctum Spell to go into AT much earlier, then going into USS.

[Person_Man]

Another useful tactic for the Spelltheif is to party with a Warlock and a Dragonfire Adept and somebody who is dedicated to Summoning weird things. Steal an Invocation or other Spell-like ability from each of them, then use them to buff yourself or attack your enemies (or just hold onto it until you need it). While an Invocation is stolen, your ally can't use them. But they presumably have many other things to do. And once you do use it, then they just get it back. (Instead of being totally lost, like a spell). This tactic is particularly amazing with gestalt (when everyone is a Something//Caster of some sort) and/or in high level games, and has way more spells/Invocation/etc on their character sheet then they will ever use. Just think of yourself as Peter Petrelli.

Also, I think I have a homebrew Spelltheif PrC you might find interesting. Let's see.... ah, here you go:

Spoiler

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Shapethief

Requirements: Ability to Steal Spell Effect and Steal Spell-Like Ability.

d8 hit die

The Shapethief does not gain any bonus weapon or armor proficiencies.

6 Skill Points per level

Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex).

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|

+1

|

+0

|

+0

|

+2

| Spellthief Ability, Shapechanger’s Bane (Shapechanger) +2d6

2nd|

+2

|

+0

|

+0

|

+3

| Reveal True Form

3rd|

+3

|

+1

|

+1

|

+3

| Steal Form

4th|

+4

|

+1

|

+1

|

+4

| Shapechanger’s Bane (Alternate Form) +4d6

5th|

+5

|

+1

|

+1

|

+4

| Smell of Deception

6th|

+6

|

+2

|

+2

|

+5

| Silvered Attacks

7th|

+7

|

+2

|

+2

|

+5

| Shapechanger’s Bane (Wildshape) +6d6

8th|

+8

|

+2

|

+2

|

+6

| True Self

9th|

+9

|

+3

|

+3

|

+6

| True Seeing

10th|

+10

|

+3

|

+3

|

+7

| Shapechanger’s Bane (Transmutation) +8d6, Absorb Form[/table]

Class Abilities

Spoiler

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Spellthief Ability: Your Shapethief levels stack with your Spellthief levels for determining your Steal Spell Effect and Steal Spell-Like Ability class abilities.

Your Shapethief levels do not stack with your Spellthief levels to determine any other class ability, such as Steal Spell, spellcasting, etc.

Shapechanger’s Bane (Ex): You gain a +2d6 Sneak Attack that only applies to enemies with the Shapechanger subtype. You must still otherwise qualify for Sneak Attack damage (must be Flanked or denied Dexterity bonus) in order to apply it.

This bonus increases by an additional 2d6 every 3 levels. This bonus stacks with Sneak Attack bonuses from other sources when applicable.

At 4th level, your Shapechanger’s Bane also applies to anyone with an Alternate Form from a racial, template, or class ability.

At 7th level, your Shapechanger’s Bane also applies to anyone with the Wildshape ability (or any similar ability provided by an alternate class feature or prestige class that requires or replaces Wildshape).

At 10th level, your Shapechanger’s Bane also applies to anyone who is willingly under the effect of a Transmutation spell or effect. This does not apply to individuals who are unwillingly the subject of such effects (such as if you cast Reduce Person on them), nor does it effect individuals who are carrying equipment under a Transmutation effect (such as Magic Weapon).

Reveal True Form (Su): If you successfully hit and damage an enemy with your Shapechanger’s Bane ability, the enemy must make a Will Save (DC = 10 + Shapethief class level + your Cha modifier) or revert back to their true form. In addition, they may not change forms for a number of rounds equal to your Shapethief level. The duration of multiple uses of the Reveal True Form ability on the same enemy overlap. You may use this ability once per round as a Free Action.

Steal Form (Su): When you use your Reveal True Form ability, you may forgo 2d6 Sneak Attack damage in an attempt to steal their form. If your enemy fails their Will Save, they still suffer the normal effects of Reveal True Form and you may take the form that they previously held as an Immediate Action.

You are limited to taking forms with hit dice equal to or less then your character level. While in this form, you follow the standard Alternate Form rules for your attributes, abilities, and all other effects. You may maintain this new form for a number of rounds equal to your Shapethief level, or until you choose to dismiss it as a Free Action.

If an ally who is subject to your Shapechanger’s Bane is willing, you may use Steal Form to take their form with a touch as a Standard Action without dealing damage. They suffer the effects of Reveal True form while you are using your Steal Form ability, and thus cannot change forms while it is stolen.

Smell of Deception (Ex): You gain the Scent Ability. In addition to its normal properties (the ability to recognize people by scent, Track by scent, locate someone’s position by scent, etc), you may automatically determine the true type and subtype of anyone within your Scent’s range, regardless of their current form.

You also gain your Shapethief level as a bonus to Sense Motive.

Silvered Attacks (Ex): Any weapon that you wield (including natural weapons and ranged weapons) count as being alchemical silver and magical for the purpose of overcoming Damage Reduction.

True Self (Su): You are now immune to the Curse of Lycanthropy, and any other effect that would change your type or subtype against your will. In addition, you gain your Charisma bonus as a bonus to Saves against any Transmutation effect. This bonus stacks with bonuses from other sources, such as Divine Grace or Spellgrace.

True Seeing (Su): You gain the ability to use True Seeing for a number of minutes each day equal to your Shapethief level, which you may split up throughout the day however you wish. Activating this ability is a Standard Action, and dismissing it is a Free Action.

Absorb Form (Su): From now on when you successfully use the Steal Form ability, you may incorporate the stolen form into your very being. You gain the stolen form as a permanent Alternate Form, and the target which you stole it from permanently loses it. You may change into this form as a Standard Action whenever you wish, and dismiss it as a free action. (This does not alter the duration of your Reveal True Form ability. Enemies may still alter their forms after 10 rounds).

You may maintain a total number of Alternate Forms equal to your Charisma bonus. You may replace an existing Alternate Form with a new one if you wish, although the maximum number held may never be higher then your Charisma Bonus. If your Charisma is ever damaged or otherwise reduced, you lose the most recently gained Alternate Form(s) until the number of forms known reflects your new Charisma bonus. If you are ever killed (reduced to -10 hit points or less) you lose all of your stored Alternate Forms, and the enemies which you stole it from regain them, even if you are later resurrected or reincarnated.

You may maintain any combination of your Alternate Forms for up to 10 + your Charisma bonus rounds per day (including the time taken to change forms), which you may split up throughout the day however you wish. This is in addition to any time you spend in a newly stolen form using the Steal Form ability.

You gain the Shapechanger subtype.

[Olo Demonsbane]

I suppose if you managed to steal a Dominate Person from them and hit them with their own Dominate, you could keep having them prepare a Dominate to steal and other yummy spells...but without mental control, how would you be coercing them into preparing spells just so you can steal them?

"Prepare Dominate Person"

"No! That would be stupid"

*Subdual Sap Sneak Attack*

"What was that?"

"Yes, yes, of course!"

[The Deej]

I've played a spellthief in a campaign, and I disagree with Fax that they should all be UMD-centric (heck, you can be a rogue and do that). I had UMD, but it wasn't my primary offensive ability. My sneak attack was. I also made decent use of several carefully selected spells (selection is crucial since you don't know many), and borrowed plenty from the other casters in the party.

Yeah, they can actually be built a few different ways, depending on feat and spell selection. Mine was a Spellthief/Unseen Seer who very much a "striker" who simultaneously dealt damage and opened up weaknesses for my fellow party members to capitalize on, and didn't even end up owning any wands other than a CLW.

Oh, and there are a few ToB maneuvers like Death from Above that are great to mix in.

[woodenbandman]

Spellthieves are great for a party that has a lot of awesome spell potential and not too many actions.

I wonder how a Factotum8/Spellthief would fare?

[Rainbownaga]

Another useful tactic for the Spelltheif is to party with a Warlock and a Dragonfire Adept and somebody who is dedicated to Summoning weird things. Steal an Invocation or other Spell-like ability from each of them, then use them to buff yourself or attack your enemies (or just hold onto it until you need it).

Does that work? It specifically disallows you casting 'personal' spells you've stolen, but does the supernatural ability let you get around that?

[Person_Man]

Does that work? It specifically disallows you casting 'personal' spells you've stolen, but does the supernatural ability let you get around that?

Yes, it works. There is no prohibition against "personal" spells in the Spelltheive's class description. Once you've stolen a spell or spell like ability, you can cast it just as the caster would have, or use it to fuel one of your own spells or feats (such as Arcane Strike, giving you a great nova option if you can get a bunch of attacks against a caster).

[Hijax]

Spellthieves are great for a party that has a lot of awesome spell potential and not too many actions.

I wonder how a Factotum8/Spellthief would fare?

Pretty good, methinks.
I wonder... what about a spelltheif who specialized in using planar binding to hijack SLAs. He would have double ownage output per round. heck, pull in a cohort with the same tactics, and watch utter awesome commerce.