Is Tyrion a Targaryen?

[BRC]

I intentionally did not include Prophesies, because those are a tricky ground. I was going for things that are undeniably magical in nature. However, I did miss a good deal of things, so yeah.

[Dragonus45]

I think GRRM is going to trow out a prophecy thats really important and blatantly obvious to decipher, so that he can poke the fans in the eye when the dont believe that its true.

[BRC]

Doing some thinking about Littlefinger, I realized who he is. He's the Anti-Vetinari!
Both are very intelligent men who are experts at manipulation and reading people. Mind you, that's a fairly generic description, but they seem very similar in my opinion.

The difference is that Vetinari thrives on stability. He appeals to the idea that people want tomorrow to go more or less like today, he solves big problems while they are still little ones.
Littlefinger however thrives on Chaos. He doesn't mind knocking down the house of cards, because he knows he's fast enough to end up on top.

[Winterwind]

That's a quite humorous observation, BRC. Seems pretty accurate, too.

Another, more subtle instance of magic would be the formulas of the pyromancers becoming more effective ever since the dragons are back. I find this one interesting because it's one of the few instances where the educated people of Westeros have access to magic - otherwise it seems like every culture is versed in all sorts of secrets, with sorcerous priests and mages all over the place, except for the Westerosi, and on the rare occassions where they have some magic it's only little known feared outcasts, not scholars or priests. This is one cliché of the exotic cultures being wiser and more magical than the (more regular medieval) one the story focuses on is one of the few things - the only thing that I can think of off the top of my head actually - that I really dislike about the ASoIaF setting. It's such an old and tired cliché, let it die.

[Dragonus45]

It isn't that they arent as wise, they dont want to acknowledge in anymore. And seems content to help it along into its grave whenever they can.

[Xondoure]

On the conversation of magic in the world, what do you think the gods role will be in this? The old gods have power, Rhillor has power, and yet, for one to be correct the other is a lie. It seems to me that magic and divine power, at least in this world, are focused around how much you believe in it, and how strong the entity that carries it currently is. (dragons for magic, gods for divine power)

[Yoren]

That's assuming that the Red Priests are completely correct in their theology. While R'hllor may be an immensely powerful god (perhaps the most powerful who knows) the idea that he is "the one and only true god" could simply be a mistake. In fact this is probably the case, since as you pointed out the Northern Gods are real and fairly powerful.

[Mewtarthio]

Personally, my guess is that divine magic (or at least some of it) is really just "regular" magic, but its wielders believe it to be the gift of the gods. Notice how Rhllor, the Lord of Light and vanquisher of deception, apparently has no problem with Melissandre creating a fake Lightbringer, not to mention how flimsy her excuse for the shadow assassins was (yeah, yeah, "Light casts shadows," but that explanation's really stretching it). Melissandre might not be lying, per se, in that she probably honestly does believe she's channeling her god's power, but I doubt Rhllor himself is really intervening here.

Another, more subtle instance of magic would be the formulas of the pyromancers becoming more effective ever since the dragons are back. I find this one interesting because it's one of the few instances where the educated people of Westeros have access to magic - otherwise it seems like every culture is versed in all sorts of secrets, with sorcerous priests and mages all over the place, except for the Westerosi, and on the rare occassions where they have some magic it's only little known feared outcasts, not scholars or priests. This is one cliché of the exotic cultures being wiser and more magical than the (more regular medieval) one the story focuses on is one of the few things - the only thing that I can think of off the top of my head actually - that I really dislike about the ASoIaF setting. It's such an old and tired cliché, let it die.

Really? I didn't really get that impression. Sure, Braavos has the Faceless Men, but the Westerosi know about them, so I figure even the Braavosi think that they're just really good assassins. I basically figured that magic was pretty much unknown all around the world; however, we've seen most of the lands outside of Westeros through the eyes of Dany, whose dragons naturally attract the attention of magically gifted people.

Or maybe I'm misremembering some of the cities. Anyone else care to take a shot?

[The_JJ]

Remember that the Maesters of Oldtown are trying to kill magic.

[Xondoure]

Remember that the Maesters of Oldtown are trying to kill magic.

Ah yes, the maesters and "the way things should work" I wonder how that will work out for them when the dragons return?

[DraPrime]

Ah yes, the maesters and "the way things should work" I wonder how that will work out for them when the dragons return?

Not well I can imagine. Although they can always claim that dragons are fake and that it was just swamp gas or a weather balloon.

[Dragonus45]

No saying they were fake is asking people to doubt you. I see them quitly helping along the Iron Men with doing whatever the horn really does then killing the dragons. Cue much "mourning" the loss of dragons from the world yet again.

[Mewtarthio]

I don't think we can really say anything about the Oldtower Conspiracy yet. All we've got on it is the Mage's word. Note that Maester Luwin, with his Valyrian steel link, seemed convinced that magic didn't exist at all. Have some of the maesters heard of the dragons? Yes, in all probability. Are they part of a massive conspiracy to destroy all magic? Perhaps not. The Mage could just be paranoid, and he's certainly not popular among his colleagues. It's possible that they might want to silently eliminate the dragons to avoid Valyria 2.0, but I think the sort of conspiracy that the Mage describes is a bit far-fetched.

[Yoren]

I'm sure every maester worth his chain believes that dragon's and magic existed in the past. They would just have to visit Harrenhal to see proof. However they also probably believe that magic died out a long time ago when the dragons died. I don't think this means that every maester is in on the conspiracy but it would make sense that if the Archmaesters wanted to snuff out magic, that they would teach young maester's like Luwin that magic no long exists.

[Xondoure]

My take on it was, that as long as magic is weak and non existent, the Maesters do not have to compete with sorcerers and the like. Because of that they have been silently trying to destroy magic and create their ideal world. I don't really see how that is far fetched; religions, governments, and movements do similar things all the time in our world.

[Mewtarthio]

The thing is, though, that all maesters are taught, in no uncertain terms, that magic does not exist at all. Every new maester has to go through that obsidian candle ordeal to emphasize it, and anyone who wants a Valyrian steel link gets it further reinforced. How, then, would they induct new members into their conspiracy? I'm not saying that Oldtower doesn't stand to gain from the death of magic, nor that there aren't any maesters who know of the existence of magic and actively oppose its spread, but I don't see how the conspiracy could really be as widespread as the Mage claims it is.

[DraPrime]

The thing is, though, that all maesters are taught, in no uncertain terms, that magic does not exist at all. Every new maester has to go through that obsidian candle ordeal to emphasize it, and anyone who wants a Valyrian steel link gets it further reinforced. How, then, would they induct new members into their conspiracy? I'm not saying that Oldtower doesn't stand to gain from the death of magic, nor that there aren't any maesters who know of the existence of magic and actively oppose its spread, but I don't see how the conspiracy could really be as widespread as the Mage claims it is.

But isn't it common knowledge that magic did once exist, back in the days of Valyria? Denying that seems to be the same as denying the existence of Julius Caesar in our world.

[Mewtarthio]

Of course. I'm just saying that the average maester does not believe that magic exists anymore. You can't fight against something that you think is dead. To take your example further, it would be like a cabal of Ivy League professors working to overthrow the Roman Empire. At what point in their academic careers would somebody say to them, "By the way, the Roman Empire still exists, and we need you to help defeat it!"

Again, I'm not saying there isn't a conspiracy, just that it's smaller than we've been led to believe.

Note to self: Take Creative Writing night classes. Write best-selling novel about a group of Ivy League professors working to overthrow the Roman Empire.

[DraPrime]

Of course. I'm just saying that the average maester does not believe that magic exists anymore. You can't fight against something that you think is dead. To take your example further, it would be like a cabal of Ivy League professors working to overthrow the Roman Empire. At what point in their academic careers would somebody say to them, "By the way, the Roman Empire still exists, and we need you to help defeat it!"

Again, I'm not saying there isn't a conspiracy, just that it's smaller than we've been led to believe.

Note to self: Take Creative Writing night classes. Write best-selling novel about a group of Ivy League professors working to overthrow the Roman Empire.

Ah, well that's a good point. But yeah, this conspiracy is small, if it really does exist. One possibility is that the maesters are so used to a world where magic is extinct, that they simply refuse to accept it's reappearance out of fear, which is why they try to suppress it.

[Yoren]

Of course. I'm just saying that the average maester does not believe that magic exists anymore. You can't fight against something that you think is dead. To take your example further, it would be like a cabal of Ivy League professors working to overthrow the Roman Empire. At what point in their academic careers would somebody say to them, "By the way, the Roman Empire still exists, and we need you to help defeat it!"

Again, I'm not saying there isn't a conspiracy, just that it's smaller than we've been led to believe.

Note to self: Take Creative Writing night classes. Write best-selling novel about a group of Ivy League professors working to overthrow the Roman Empire.

If the conspiracy existes, I always assumed that only the Archmaesters were in on it. This would make the conspiracy very small but also very very powerful.

The average maester is probably like Luwin. They know that magic used to exist but accept that it died out a long time ago and they don't believe that its coming back.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

So, my thoughts- and I hope I'm not performing thread necromancy, here.

First, yeah, Tyrion seems very much like a Lannister- but he would be anyway. Tywin married his first cousin- so either way, Tyrion would have a healthy serving of Lannister genes.

Second, at one point (I can't remember when, but I think it's when Tyrion asked for Casterly Rock) - Tywin said "I cannot prove that you are not my son", implying that he thinks it. Now, it was always made clear that Tywin loved his wife, so it's not likely that he would believe she'd been unfaithful by choice, which leaves rape- and who would be able to rape the wife of the Hand of the King, except the King himself?

And yeah, Tywin's vengeful, but he's also cold- yes, he would have gotten back at Aerys sooner or later, but I don't think he would have struck him down rashly or in anger, especially given what such would do to his house, and to his wife. More likely, he'd wait for a chance to strike when he could get away with it- and what do you know, his son killed the mad king before that could happen.

As for it being a better story if Tywin and Tyrion are father and son... Personally, I think that Martin leans towards the Nurture side of the Nature vs. Nurture debate; magic, dragons and prophecy may care about bloodline, but in every way that matters from a personal perspective, Tyrion killed his own father.

[Eldan]

So, my thoughts- and I hope I'm not performing thread necromancy, here.

Yes, yes you are. By three years.