[3.5] What happens to the realms and petitioners of a god who dies?

[Pika...]

So I was watching the following music video I enjoy (perhaps a bit too much), and I just realized that I overlooked a big issue in my cosmology/world building.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUnsCdaxvFc


What exactly happens to the realms and petitioners if their patron deity dies?

In my cosmology the Asgardian pantheon happens to have recently died (around 90-120 years ago), along with the other human pantheons and solo deities except for four (the Asgardian pantheon managed to hold out to almost the end, at least most anyway). Of the four who survived vecna is still stuck in Ravenloft (I go by previous canon), so I guess his realm is left in a similar situation?



p.s. Can anyone please also explain a bit what exactly a deity's "realm" is in D&D? I read the term and reference constantly, and where they are etc, but what exactly are they?

[Woodsman]

The answer is what you want it to be.

You could have them merge with the plane's essence, stay with the plane, move to some other realm, etc.

A deity's realm, though, is the place where the deity lives and holds his greatest power.

[Pika...]

The answer is what you want it to be.

You could have them merge with the plane's essence, stay with the plane, move to some other realm, etc.

I see.

I guess this means there has never been a direct answer, or canon describing this? I thought I had gotten everything related to how deities work from Deities & Demigods (boy I loved that read), but I had not notcied this part in there.

A deity's realm, though, is the place where the deity lives and holds his greatest power.

I see. Thanks for the information. I thought there would be more to it, though.

However, can you get into a bit more detailed with what you mean with "where he holds his greatest power"?


p.s. And I am guessing this is where there physical bodies are located?

[Woodsman]

Yeeah, that bit isn't in Deities & Demigods, sadly.

Sorry, I meant that's where a deity is at his strongest.

[Altima]

In the Forgotten Realms, where gods tend to die like flies, the worshippers of said god are then taken under the responsibility of the next deity to assume the portfolio.

For example, Amaunator was a deity of the sun. When he died, Lathandar took over the assumed control of the sun domain. Given that the FR portfolios can influence a god's alignment, there's almost no way a soul would be lost to a deity's death.

As for the deity's realm, well, it's basically the godly equivalent of a wizard's demiplane, except the realm can be a part of a planar layer--like FR's City of the Dead--or it can even be its own planar level. The Abyss is rife with these. Generally, the more powerful a deity is (demi, lesser, intermediate, greater) the more space she has control over.

It's also possible that the worshippers of your fallen deity are still with said deity. After all, dead gods' corpses wander the astral sea. Heck, it's entirely possible that the realms of your dead deities are self-sufficient in that they don't actively require a deity. Lastly, it could be that the worshippers will eventually fade away if a new deity doesn't pledge her patronage to them. After all, it can take a lot of time for divine power to melt away.

[Pika...]

Yeeah, that bit isn't in Deities & Demigods, sadly.

Sorry, I meant that's where a deity is at his strongest.

Thanks for the information.


Hmmm...

This brings up a lot of ideas and such.

I am thinking that perhaps the souls of past petitioners could choose to continue defending Asgard's walls from giant attacks into eternity, even though it's great hall is now devoid of their beloved and once great gods. Perhaps it can make for an intense, yet emotionally saddening scene for PCs/players to experience seeing the realms of an entire pantheon reduced to such a state. The very ground and walls infused with untold years of their deities' residual power, but now without them no way for it to be channeled or used. It might even give the impression/worry that it can happen elsewhere, and to other races as well?

[Pika...]

In the Forgotten Realms, where gods tend to die like flies, the worshippers of said god are then taken under the responsibility of the next deity to assume the portfolio.

For example, Amaunator was a deity of the sun. When he died, Lathandar took over the assumed control of the sun domain. Given that the FR portfolios can influence a god's alignment, there's almost no way a soul would be lost to a deity's death.

As for the deity's realm, well, it's basically the godly equivalent of a wizard's demiplane, except the realm can be a part of a planar layer--like FR's City of the Dead--or it can even be its own planar level. The Abyss is rife with these. Generally, the more powerful a deity is (demi, lesser, intermediate, greater) the more space she has control over.

It's also possible that the worshippers of your fallen deity are still with said deity. After all, dead gods' corpses wander the astral sea. Heck, it's entirely possible that the realms of your dead deities are self-sufficient in that they don't actively require a deity. Lastly, it could be that the worshippers will eventually fade away if a new deity doesn't pledge her patronage to them. After all, it can take a lot of time for divine power to melt away.

Thank you for getting into greater detail for this! Lots of helpful info there.

And the "remaining with their deity" suggestion does give me an alternate idea. In my cosmology while gods can be die/be killed/fade due to having gotten dependent on worship, they are the only things to never truly "die". Basically, they become powerless ghosts-like entities who lose all their power, and retain nothing but their memories and knowledge. So I guess they could still remain in what was left of their realms.

[T.G. Oskar]

What exactly happens to the realms and petitioners if their patron deity dies?

In my cosmology the Asgardian pantheon happens to have recently died (around 90-120 years ago), along with the other human pantheons and solo deities except for four (the Asgardian pantheon managed to hold out to almost the end, at least most anyway). Of the four who survived vecna is still stuck in Ravenloft (I go by previous canon), so I guess his realm is left in a similar situation?

May seem like a silly question, but which were the surviving deities, aside from Vecna? And what actually happened that caused the death of the other gods, aside from perhaps monotheism, atheism or philosophical religions?

Still, those Asgardians...they are pretty tough. Perhaps they survive within black metal bardic troupes?

[Jack Zander]

RAW actually has an exact answer for this. It's in the Deities and Demigods 3.0 (3.5 compatible) book.

It basically states: "It's up to the DM"

Great job Wizards. I bought a book to give me rules for Deities and Demigods and got a slip of paper that reads, "Houserule it. Make your own crap up. Whatever you do just leave us alone. We're too busy laughing at how much money we'll get from this useless book."

[Kizara]

Probably some of the best growl/grunt metal I've heard.

I don't like it that heavy much (Epica and Nightwish fan myself), but that is indeed the best heavy metal I've heard.

As for your question, I have nothing currently to contribute. :)

[AslanCross]

To give more insight into the FR pantheon:

1. Not all deities have a realm. A good number of them hang out with deities of similar ideologies. For example, Azuth used to hang out with Mystra. Savras was also there, but when Mystra died, Dweomerheart exploded and Azuth was thrown straight into the Nine Hells, where Asmodeus ate him.

2. Dead gods can (and have) come back. Most notable here is Bane. He and the demigod Torm slew each other during the Time of Troubles in an epic Dragonball Z-esque match, with Torm's worshipers sacrificing themselves in order to power Torm's Genkidama avatar so he could destroy Bane. Ao, the overdeity, resurrected Torm and promoted him to lesser godhood, while Bane was left to float around in the Astral Plane. Bane's half-demon son, Iyachtu Xvim, took over his father's cult and portfolio, but soon all his clerics dreamed of Iyachtu exploding, with Bane rising from the smoldering corpse of his son. I can't remember exactly how Bane did it, but he's back in any case.

On the other hand, I can't really think of any other dead god coming back apart from Amaunator. (Turns out Lathander really WAS Amaunator in 4E, and that the Risen Sun Heresy was true.)

3. Deities have been erased from existence through epic magic. Kiaransalee's name was erased from reality, causing her worshipers to forget about her, which caused her to fade away.

[Pika...]

May seem like a silly question, but which were the surviving deities, aside from Vecna? And what actually happened that caused the death of the other gods, aside from perhaps monotheism, atheism or philosophical religions?

Not silly at all.

See my other recent thread for some more info on that:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123351

Still, those Asgardians...they are pretty tough. Perhaps they survive within black metal bardic troupes?

LoL. I am sure mistrals still sing of that clan of Human.

[bosssmiley]

So a god dies. The falling of this great oak in the forest of the powers-that-be means a lot of opportunistic little groups get their day in the sun. Think of the ferment that happens during an IRL revolution: mercenaries, spies, shady dealers and dirty tricksters, strongmen, zealots, opportunists and idealists all pop out the woodwork. Now multiply all that by the Planescape setting...

In the D&D standard cosmology the dead god becomes an godstone island in the Astral Plane and the Githyanki build towers on his vitrified protrusions. His prime metaphysical real estate, fat lewts, a lot of bemused petitioners and proxies, and a fat, juicy portfolio all sit intestate on the Outer Planes. Expect every power bloc in the multiverse to fight for their place at the pudding bowl...

There'll also be disgruntled worshippers determined to either conceal the death of, or bring about the return of, their dead lord and master.