Dire flail as a two headed flail, does anything nolonger work?

[deuxhero]

We all know dire flails are a really stupid weapon that completey work against how a flail works. Would reworking the dire flail so it simply has two heads with no rule changes (still a double weapon) cause any oddities?

[Sallera]

I'm not sure it quite makes sense to leave them as a double weapon if you make that change. Might increase the damage die a bit, or give an additional disarm bonus.

[erikun]

Putting two heads on the same end, basically as a Flail/Scourge, wouldn't make much sense as a double weapon. How would you hit with one head without hitting with another? How would you choose which head to hit with? If you swing the weapon, wouldn't all the heads logically have a chance to hit?

(In game terms, it would make more sense to give such a weapon one attack rather than trying to model the two heads as two seperate weapons joined together.)

If you want some kind of double-chain weapon, you're better off designing a Kusarigama-type weapon.

[arguskos]

Eh, I actually was inspired by several sources to stat up the Exotic Weapon, the Triple Flail. Basically, it's a flail with three heads. ()

The stats were as follows:
Weapon Type: Exotic, one handed, bludgeoning.
Damage: 1d8 (per head), x2 critical range
Special Rules: When you successfully hit with a triple flail, roll 1d3. On a 1, a single head hits. On a 2, two heads hit (doing 1d8+whatever each), and on a three, all three heads hit. On a confirmed critical hit, each head that hits does critical damage.

It's nothing amazing, but fun and flavorful. I personally would allow each head to hold a single unique enchantment, so each one is special.

[Foryn Gilnith]

About 2.5 average damage too much for an exotic one-hander, but the exorbitant cost of enchantment might alleviate that.

[Sallera]

That, and you definitely don't want to have extra damage apply per head. But you could just make it d6 per head and have additional damage apply only once.

[Xenogears]

Eh, I actually was inspired by several sources to stat up the Exotic Weapon, the Triple Flail. Basically, it's a flail with three heads. ()

The stats were as follows:
Weapon Type: Exotic, one handed, bludgeoning.
Damage: 1d8 (per head), x2 critical range
Special Rules: When you successfully hit with a triple flail, roll 1d3. On a 1, a single head hits. On a 2, two heads hit (doing 1d8+whatever each), and on a three, all three heads hit. On a confirmed critical hit, each head that hits does critical damage.

It's nothing amazing, but fun and flavorful. I personally would allow each head to hold a single unique enchantment, so each one is special.

So does the 1d8+whatever allow you to triple the bonus from things like power attack or sneak attack? Because if it does then it is rather overpowered. If it doesn't it should probably make note of that.

[arguskos]

About 2.5 average damage too much for an exotic one-hander, but the exorbitant cost of enchantment might alleviate that.

Meh, it's also inconsistent, which hurts as well. It has no special tricks, does nothing but some extra damage, and really, a bit of extra damage on the base end isn't anything to be worried about.

Does anyone moan about the Fullblade? Hell no. The Triple Flail is fine. A bit weak probably.

As for the extra damage bit, no. It DOES triple energy damage, provided each head is enchanted with the ability, but Power Attack only applies once (you are power attacking with the whole weapon, not each head :P). Do note I just pulled that out of my subconscious. I have the full stat block (where I note everything in detail) laying around somewhere, not on hand.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Fullblade does 2d8 damage average. So does this. Inconsistency in exchange for free Monkey Grip with no attack penalty is...eh.

I'm just indisposed towards homebrew.

[arguskos]

Fullblade does 2d8 damage average. So does this. Inconsistency in exchange for free Monkey Grip with no attack penalty is...eh.

I'm just indisposed towards homebrew.

Well, what would you suggest to make the weapon viable? Base damage is not a serious concern to me, since really, Power Attack+2HF makes damage a non-concern.

Really, the issue here seems to be what exactly applies to each head, and as long as massive damage buffs (such as Power Attack and Sneak Attack) don't apply, it doesn't seem overly broken to my eyes. What do you suggest though?

[Foryn Gilnith]

Thinking about what characters would benefit, no deities have the Triple Flail as a favored weapon, so it works out.

[arguskos]

Thinking about what characters would benefit, no deities have the Triple Flail as a favored weapon, so it works out.

Oookay then. No advice for it though?

[Cieyrin]

Thinking about what characters would benefit, no deities have the Triple Flail as a favored weapon, so it works out.

Actually, I'm fairly sure that the Demon Prince of Gnolls, Yeenoghu, uses a triple flail. They even stated it out at some point, most likely in a Dragon some time back when.

EDIT: Found a description for it, though as the unique weapon of a god, probably not quite as helpful.

Unique exotic weapon; each time a hit is scored roll 1d3 to see how many of the heads hit the target. Each head deals 1d12+24 points of damage [Y's str is 37, which yields a +19 wielded two handed, plus its +4 enhancement bonus]... If more than one head hits the same target, the victim must make a Fort save or be paralyzed for 2d6 rounds; if all three hit the victim must also make a Will save or be confused for 10 rounds.

[arguskos]

Actually, I'm fairly sure that the Demon Prince of Gnolls, Yeenoghu, uses a triple flail. They even stated it out at some point, most likely in a Dragon some time back when.

He does use one indeed. That was one of my inspirations (the other was the Flail of Ages +3/+5 from BG2). However, Demon Princes can't grant spells nor do they have favored weapons, so it doesn't matter for our purposes.

[Boci]

He does use one indeed. That was one of my inspirations (the other was the Flail of Ages +3/+5 from BG2). However, Demon Princes can't grant spells nor do they have favored weapons, so it doesn't matter for our purposes.

They do have favourite weapons and their clerics gain spells via the Abyss.

[Sallera]

Well, if what you're saying is that strength bonus applies to damage from each head, but nothing else... it seems to be a large bonus to melee at low levels, when they need it least, and a small, perhaps even insignificant, one at high levels where they need it most. Taking an 18str character, the flail would do an average of 17, whereas a fullblade would do an average of 15, and the fullblade is two-handed. If you apply PA at, say BAB5, you're still doing 22 with the flail and 25 with the fullblade. So it's not too bad at the higher levels, but if you want to use it like that, I'd at least drop the damage dice to d4, maybe d6. That would keep it an interesting weapon without it being far too good from level 5 down.

[arguskos]

They do have favourite weapons and their clerics gain spells via the Abyss.

Do you have a source for this? If so, I'd love to see it.

@Sallera: That's a good point. Perhaps if each head was affected by DR individually, that bonus damage would be lessened? I could drop the damage die to a d6 though. I'd personally prefer not, but I guess it makes some sense (smaller heads=less damage).

Or, and here's a better option than dropping the damage die, apply a mild attack penalty when using the flail? All those heads, it must be unwieldly to swing, call it a -2 on attacks? At low levels, it's a lessened chance to hit and a greater chance of massive damage (important trade-off at low levels) and at high levels, neither matters much. Thoughts?

[Sallera]

The attack penalty could work, aye. Although it did just occur to me that unless you make it a light weapon, it can still be wielded two-handed, and if you do that, it gets ridiculous. So, yes, do something about that. Light weapon doesn't really make sense for something like this, but you could do it. Suppose you could also just add in a special provision for it; say the haft is too short to wield it with two hands or something.

[Mongoose87]

I really dislike the idea of attack penalties for a weapon you're proficient with.


Is anyone else reminded of Sword-Chucks by this discussion?

[Cieyrin]

The attack penalty could work, aye. Although it did just occur to me that unless you make it a light weapon, it can still be wielded two-handed, and if you do that, it gets ridiculous. So, yes, do something about that. Light weapon doesn't really make sense for something like this, but you could do it. Suppose you could also just add in a special provision for it; say the haft is too short to wield it with two hands or something.

Just use the rapier provision for it if you're that concerned about it. Personally, to not have to worry about the matter, I'd just make it 2-handed and have each head do a d6. Roll a d3 and then roll that many d6s. It should advance from the heavy flail and it'll average just a bit more than the heavy flail will. Occasionally you'll do more or less. I'd also increase the disarm bonus to +4, since you're tangling their weapon with additional chains. If you want to apply variability like the damage, make it +1d3 or +1d4, which averages to 2 and often more.

The attack penalty is a bit off-putting, as well. Unless you can auto-flurry with it, applying an attack penalty to something you're proficient in just doesn't make sense.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Eh, I actually was inspired by several sources to stat up the Exotic Weapon, the Triple Flail. Basically, it's a flail with three heads. ()

The stats were as follows:
Weapon Type: Exotic, one handed, bludgeoning.
Damage: 1d8 (per head), x2 critical range
Special Rules: When you successfully hit with a triple flail, roll 1d3. On a 1, a single head hits. On a 2, two heads hit (doing 1d8+whatever each), and on a three, all three heads hit. On a confirmed critical hit, each head that hits does critical damage.

It's nothing amazing, but fun and flavorful. I personally would allow each head to hold a single unique enchantment, so each one is special.

This is VERY overpowered for a basic weapon. A 1 handed weapon capable of (1 in 3 times) dealing 3d8+12 damage in the hands of a Strength 18 character is overkill. I'd personally recommend the following:

Triple Flail

Weapon Type: Exotic
Hands: 2
Damage Type: Bludgeoning
Damage: 1d8 (see text), Special critical (20/see text)
Special Rules: When you attack with a triple flail, roll 1d3. On a 1, you deal base damage. On a 2, add +2 damage and gain a +1 bonus to the attack roll. On a 3, add +4 damage and gain a +2 bonus to the attack roll. This additional damage is multiplied as per normal on a successful critical hit.
Special Critical: Whenever you score a critical hit with a Triple Flail, roll 1d3. On a 1, deal x2 damage. On a 2, deal x3 damage. On a 4, deal x4 damage.



It's now, on average, about akin to a Greatsword (1d8+2 is 6.5, comparable to the Greatsword's 7), with the possibility of being either better or worse damage-wise. This is made up for by your greater chances of hitting if you roll well. The critical also has the chance to be quite potent in the right hands, but, overall, the weapon has a better balance at low levels. With the attack bonus variable, it's definitely worth the feat.

[Cieyrin]

This is VERY overpowered for a basic weapon. A 1 handed weapon capable of (1 in 3 times) dealing 3d8+12 damage in the hands of a Strength 18 character is overkill. I'd personally recommend the following:

Triple Flail

Weapon Type: Exotic
Hands: 2
Damage Type: Bludgeoning
Damage: 1d8 (see text), Special critical (20/see text)
Special Rules: When you attack with a triple flail, roll 1d3. On a 1, you deal base damage. On a 2, add +2 damage and gain a +1 bonus to the attack roll. On a 3, add +4 damage and gain a +2 bonus to the attack roll. This additional damage is multiplied as per normal on a successful critical hit.
Special Critical: Whenever you score a critical hit with a Triple Flail, roll 1d3. On a 1, deal x2 damage. On a 2, deal x3 damage. On a 4, deal x4 damage.



It's now, on average, about akin to a Greatsword (1d8+2 is 6.5, comparable to the Greatsword's 7), with the possibility of being either better or worse damage-wise. This is made up for by your greater chances of hitting if you roll well. The critical also has the chance to be quite potent in the right hands, but, overall, the weapon has a better balance at low levels. With the attack bonus variable, it's definitely worth the feat.

I don't think the original write-up is quite as deadly as you think, Djinn. It does at most 3d8, total, not per head. The only amplification is the Strength bonus to damage. I think the original would still be balanced if without the Strength amplification. As a one-handed weapon, reducing the damage per head to a d6 would probably be in line, as well.

As for your version, you have a small typo w/ the crit mod, as you have a result for 4 on a roll of a d3. Your damage version is kinda 2nd Ed.-esque but hey, that's fine. I just don't remember a weapon by default giving a damage bonus since the last time I read a 2nd Ed AD&D PHB. Oh and the Iron Kingdoms Character Guide for some of the specialty firearms.

[Person_Man]

I'd allow it. Also, if you're just interested in a Dire Flail build, there's a feat in Champions of Ruin called Dire Flail Smash. If you hit an enemy with both ends of your dire flail, they must Save or be Dazed for 1 round. The prereqs are annoying (Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus) but Daze is a very potent effect, as it effects everything (including Undead, Constructs, Plants, Ooze, etc).

[Harperfan7]

Just imagine a dire flail as a length of chain with either end ending in a flail head. Remove the wood stick between them and I think it makes much more sense.

[Yuki Akuma]

Just imagine a dire flail as a length of chain with either end ending in a flail head. Remove the wood stick between them and I think it makes much more sense.

That's a meteor hammer.

[Mongoose87]

That's a meteor hammer.

And very close to Sword-chucks.

[Fhaolan]

That's a meteor hammer.

I was under the impression that a meteor hammer is one-ended. Meaning there's only one big weight at the end of the chain.

[arguskos]

And very close to Sword-chucks.

Not sure how you got to Sword-Chucks from Meteor Hammer, seeing as one is insanely impossible, and the other is a historically accurate training device. Just wondering about that.

In any case, I can see that my version of the 3x Flail is not that great. If you want to use it, feel free. If not, no harm no foul.

[Mystic Muse]

sure swordchucks are insanely impossible but the rule of cool overrides that.

[Rainbownaga]

Incidentally I remember seeing something very closely resembling a dire flail in a friend's book about weapons from around the world. From India if my memory serves me correct.