[4e] evil invoker powers

[oxinabox]

Don't know if this belong her e in in HB.
But PHBII has evil invokers still turning undead.
one of my PC's is a Chaotic Evil Sorcerer Gestalt Invoker.
so he doesn't get too many Invoker powers but he does get that class feature.
He has undead servents.
It's legal to be an invoker of orcus.
But why turn undead?
Turn in 4e does large ammounts of radiant damage to undead.
What is a good feature power i can give him instead?

[Kylarra]

Just give him one of the channel divinity domain feats instead?

[Sir Homeslice]

But why turn undead?

1.) Invokers get Rebuke Undead
2.) You're the Invoker of Orcus. You KILL the Undead that refuse to obey you.
3.) Radiant damage isn't nessecarily holy, it's just the stuff of gods in energy form.

[Mystic Muse]

you can also make it negative energy and call it turn/rebuke life

[oxinabox]

you can also make it negative energy and call it turn/rebuke life

and give him more power than a raging barbairan.

No happy with him harming undead.
healing maybe but then undead arn't useful for combat.
undead fro0m the animate dead ritual arn't good for combat.

Maybe the abity to command a number of HD worth of Greater undead?
Then he'ld have to go find some

[Kylarra]

and give him more power than a raging barbairan.

No happy with him harming undead.
healing maybe but then undead arn't useful for combat.
undead fro0m the animate dead ritual arn't good for combat.

Maybe the abity to command a number of HD worth of Greater undead?
Then he'ld have to go find some

Give him the undeath's ally domain feat. It converts one of their healing surges into temp hp equal to their surge value + 1/2 your level.

[FoE]

I didn't read too much on the Invoker class in the PHB II and am not intimately familiar with its workings, but Orcus is not a god and can't grant spells to his followers.

[1of3]

If you use the standard setting assumptions, it isn't. Although it seems that demon lords can grant powers to their followers, those wouldn't be divine powers.

On the other hand there aren't any rules for the powers that demon lords can grant. So if you wanted to play such a character, you would have to reskin another class. I would adapt a warlock pact, though.

[FoE]

I would think Vecna would be a more appropriate choice. He's a proper god, for one thing. Still a lord of the undead, but a little more logical about it. Undeath is more a means to an end, with the ultimate goal of attaining ultimate knowledge and power. Orcus might tolerate living worshippers, but only to a point. He certainly wouldn't grant his power to some meatbag who won't embrace undeath, at least not for long.

I suppose you can re-flavour the crunch, though. If you want Orcus to be a god, fine. He's practically a god, and maybe he overthrew the Raven Queen.

To answer your question, OP ... well, there are undead who serve Orcus and there are undead who do not. The latter must be crushed if they do not submit to his rule.

Maybe the abity to command a number of HD worth of Greater undead?
Then he'ld have to go find some

If you want him commanding a small army, then go ahead. I wouldn't touch that can of worms myself.

[Mystic Muse]

and give him more power than a raging barbairan.

No happy with him harming undead.
healing maybe but then undead arn't useful for combat.
undead fro0m the animate dead ritual arn't good for combat.

Maybe the abity to command a number of HD worth of Greater undead?
Then he'ld have to go find some

how does giving him necrotic give him more power than a raging barbarian? for every race that's resistant to one type of damage there's going to be one that's resistant to another. If your DM is smart he'll change the monster to be more immune to your abilities.

HD aren't in 4th edition and your DM probably won't allow you a small army of undead.

I'm sorry I don't understand. are you saying "no I'm happy with him harming undead"? or "no I'm not happy with it harming undead." if it's the former then just imagine radiant power as like a lightsaber. If it's the latter you could have mentioned that before.

[oxinabox]

I am the DM,

and give him more power than a raging barbairan.

Giving him necrotic doesn't.
Giving him the abity to do his Turn power on living things does.
Turn is a very strong Power IIRC correctly,
It's balanced by only being good against undead.


BTW his god isn't Orcus, that was just an example, Orcus is a demonloard of undead.
Veccna is a better example (there are better one i think but can't bring to mind) , my bad i forgot Orcus wasn't a god.

This character actually vagly worships the "Fey Lords' (HB setting specific Fey) who are chaos. he gave them is soul (multiclass worlock).


In regards to harming undead:
I'm not happy that an evil character kill the 'scaries'.
Sure it can be RolePlayed into relevance.
Anything can be roleplayed/refluffed into relevance, but...

EDIT:
I could give him 'Turn Cleric' like a 2nded, monster i once saw

[TheOOB]

According to the fluff, invokers utilize a raw form of divine magic that predates other forms of divine magic, which means the individual gods matter less to your abilities. The fact is, radiant energy(which is the energy of all gods, good or evil) is harmful to undead, and most/all divine characters can use it as such. Whether or not they choose to do so is up to them.

None of the divine classes are necrotic in nature, and we probably won't see classes like that until the PHB IV or later.

[oxinabox]

None of the divine classes are necrotic in nature, and we probably won't see classes like that until the PHB IV or later.

It's suggested in PHB or DMG that you swap radient for necrotic for evil characters.
But i don't care wha thte default setting says, my evil gods don't turn undead

[Mystic Muse]

you're really not giving us a lot to work with here. and if the living things is your problem just use another subtype instead of undead.

[Kylarra]

I feel like I'm being ignored here. The Divine Power book clearly lists several channel divinity feats related to domains, and as such choosing a domain related to the deity in question (undeath) and just straight up replacing the channel divinity "Rebuke Undead" with the Undeath Domain channel divinity "Undeath's Ally" seems like a fair trade.

[Mystic Muse]

I feel like I'm being ignored here. The Divine Power book clearly lists several channel divinity feats related to domains, and as such choosing a domain related to the deity in question (undeath) and just straight up replacing the channel divinity "Rebuke Undead" with the Undeath Domain channel divinity "Undeath's Ally" seems like a fair trade.

possibly. I haven't read divine power yet though. plus it works with the OP's intention.

[FoE]

The Divine Power book clearly lists several channel divinity feats related to domains, and as such choosing a domain related to the deity in question (undeath) and just straight up replacing the channel divinity "Rebuke Undead" with the Undeath Domain channel divinity "Undeath's Ally" seems like a fair trade.

Seems like a good idea. Mind you, I don't own Divine Power, so I'm not the best judge.

[Kylarra]

I mean more in general in the fact that all the channel divinity effects are supposed to be marginally along the same power levels, so swapping a class granted channel divinity for the feat granted one is probably the easiest thing to do, rather than trying to balance some sort of weird homebrew.

[Mystic Muse]

or here's an option. be a paladin. change it to a spellcasting class. change all energy to negative energy/whatever the fourth edition versions is. change all abilities from melee to spells with a set amount of damage. make the stat the powers are be more in line with a spellcasting class. change the amount of HP you get per level to 4 and change all abilities so they have a rather large range and call it an invoker. Now you have channel divinity feats that deal damage to living creatures and undead if need be.

of course this means a lot of work, not much return and the possibility your GM wouldn't even allow it. heck unless you're going to be the invoker of an undeath related deity it doesn't really even matter.

best find a channel divinity feat to replace rebuke undead with more in line with you character. get divine power from your local library if need be.

the library is the legal answer to anything book related when you're not going to use the book for much else and so you don't want to pay a ton of money for it. probably the worst you'll ever have is a few overdue fees.

[Tyrmatt]

Channel Divinity: Bolster Undead
"Your undead minions straighten and bare their teeth, bathed in your dark power"
Encounter * Divine Implement Necrotic
Standard Action Burst 1
Range: 6
Target: Undead creatures in the burst
Each undead creature in the burst gains 1d6+Charisma Modifier temporary hitpoints. These hitpoints last until the end of your next turn. Your undead minions also gain a +2 bolstering bonus to any saves made against radiant damage before your next turn.
At level 11 raise this to 2d6 hitpoints and at 21 raise to 3d6.

Something that pops to mind, needs a playtest obviously to gauge power levels. I imagine it may need to be every 5 levels or so instead of ten but this is a low power edition to make it seem more appealing to the DM.

[oxinabox]

of course this means a lot of work, not much return and the possibility your GM wouldn't even allow it.

I repeat: I am the DM!|
I could just take the paladins chanel divinity and give it too the invoker...

I feel like I'm being ignored here. The Divine Power book clearly lists several channel divinity feats related to domains, and as such choosing a domain related to the deity in question (undeath) and just straight up replacing the channel divinity "Rebuke Undead" with the Undeath Domain channel divinity "Undeath's Ally" seems like a fair trade.

Sorry I don't have divine power, it's kinda newish. (there is no library with DnD books in my country (maybe some private library's, but they'll charge membership and I don't know of any))
I might head out and pick it up.

Channel Divinity: Bolster Undead
"Your undead minions straighten and bare their teeth, bathed in your dark power"
Encounter * Divine Implement Necrotic
Standard Action Burst 1
Range: 6
Target: Undead creatures in the burst
Each undead creature in the burst gains 1d6+Charisma Modifier temporary hitpoints. These hitpoints last until the end of your next turn. Your undead minions also gain a +2 bolstering bonus to any saves made against radiant damage before your next turn.
At level 11 raise this to 2d6 hitpoints and at 21 raise to 3d6

As i mentioned above, the standard undead from animate dead are not worth having incombat.
Do they even have attack?
it's a 150 gold rituall for a 1 hp minion, even boosted up like that it would be still a wast of money and time.
thus the i dead of gatheringan undead cohort, but i don't lioke that much either.

EDIT: maybne theres somehting in open grave

[Thajocoth]

A houserule I use is that a Divine character who's evil may choose at character creation to swap all mention of the words "undead" and "fey" in their power descriptions. Turn Undead becomes Turn Fey. If some divine ability used to effect Fey, it now effects Undead. But they can't pick and choose which powers are for Undead and which are for Fey... The terms get permanently swapped if they decide to take the change.

[Kylarra]

I already told you what undeath's ally does, well the gist of it anyway.

The only thing I left out was the melee 1 range.

[Mystic Muse]

I repeat: I am the DM!|
I could just take the paladins chanel divinity and give it too the invoker...

this is your most cost effective option.

I used to have open grave and I don't think there's anything in there. All I remember it discussing is new undead, undead legends and the god of undead Vecna.

[Mando Knight]

I could just take the paladins chanel divinity and give it too the invoker...

Neither of the Paladin's CDs really help the Invoker. Both of them use stats that Invokers really don't focus on at all...

[Mystic Muse]

what you do is take the Paladin's mark ability and change all "radiant." to "necrotic."

[Indon]

I'm playing in an evil game and one of our members is a cleric.

Rather than Turn Undead, his power functions only against divine champions (Clerics, Paladins, etc) of Good deities (which we do expect to face occasionally), and deals Necrotic damage, but is otherwise identical to Turn Undead.

[Mando Knight]

what you do is take the Paladin's mark ability and change all "radiant." to "necrotic."

Not for an Invoker, you don't. What sane Invoker marks targets? IIRC, necrotic is a slightly weaker element as well...

[Mystic Muse]

Not for an Invoker, you don't. What sane Invoker marks targets? IIRC, necrotic is a slightly weaker element as well...

the OP really isn't giving me much to work with so I'm pretty much just throwing any possible solution out there

Oxinabox if you want us to help you you need to tell exactly what this player wants this power to DO.

[oxinabox]

He had no suggestions, when i saw it said i would if it.
turn fey is would be silly (he worships the fey (who arn't so nice in my setting) and they have rewarded the players with a very very small fey moon (inhabitted by fey))
I do like 'Turn Cleric'.

Turn Cleric
Encounter ✦ Divine, Implement, Necrotic
Standard Action [ B]Closeblast 5[/B]
Target: Each Affected (see bellow) creature in blast
Attack: Wisdom vs. Will

Hit: 1d10 + Wisdom modifier Necrotic damage, and becomes dazed till the end of your next round.

Level 5: 2d10 + Wisdom modifier Necrotic damage.
Level 11: 3d10 + Wisdom modifier Necrotic damage.
Level 15: 4d10 + Wisdom modifier Necrotic damage.
Level 21: 5d10 + Wisdom modifier Necrotic damage.
Level 25: 6d10 + Wisdom modifier Necrotic damage.
Miss: Half damage.

Affects: this ability may only be used against creatures/people of good or neutral alignment who have a divine power source.

Special: before you roll attack, the affected have the option to flee. if they flee your attack automatically misses.

Condition: Fleeing
You may take no actions other than retreat(or run),
You must run aways, if you can not run away you cower in the furthest corner.
you grant combat advantage,
you can not flank.
you may not make a saving throw agaist fleeing until you are out of sight of the creature your are fleeing from