the Threat class........ with a small character.

**Mystic Muse** · 2009-09-01, 01:04 AM (ISO 8601)

okay. Is there any way to make this workable? My DM said he'd allow the Threat class but only if I chose a race like the halfling or gnome. I went for the Kenku. They all get the same penalty anyway. Is there any way to make this Class not severely gimped when it gets a penalty to strength? Or is it not gimped with a penalty to strength anyway?

**Sstoopidtallkid** · 2009-09-01, 01:06 AM (ISO 8601)

What's the Threat?

**Mystic Muse** · 2009-09-01, 01:08 AM (ISO 8601)

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Threat_...s)#Mighty_Blow

**Doc Roc** · 2009-09-01, 01:13 AM (ISO 8601)

I just start laughing every time I read that class, because there's this (hopefully unintended) implication that double-damage class-level times per day is roughly equivalent in power to hitting as though your weapon is one category larger.

**Wings of Peace** · 2009-09-01, 01:14 AM (ISO 8601)

What's your goal for the char? Short and high dps? Short and high dps Threat in particular? Combat Maneuver Specialist? I ask because while I would not accuse the Threat of being imbalanced I would accuse it of depending on whether you want it for flavor or for optimization being a debatably sub-optimal choice.

**Mystic Muse** · 2009-09-01, 01:34 AM (ISO 8601)

I like it for the flavor. Also tell me that if I have to be a small character a three foot birdman holding a four foot sword wouldn't look just plain hilarious.

**Eloel** · 2009-09-01, 01:48 AM (ISO 8601)

That class is made of FAIL. Seriously though, +16 to all combat-checks at L20?
If you could stack feats (and you can't...), that's equal to 16 feats (Improved Grapple/Trip/Bull Rush/Overrun x4). And you can do double damage 40 times/day too. Oh, you're immune to anything mind-effecting as well. +10 to Fort & Natural Armor?...

This class is basically 3 classes rolled into 1, with LA-requiring abilities added for fun. Something akin to Lightning Warrior.

**Mystic Muse** · 2009-09-01, 01:51 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by ozgun92

That class is made of FAIL. Seriously though, +16 to all combat-checks at L20?
If you could stack feats (and you can't...), that's equal to 16 feats (Improved Grapple/Trip/Bull Rush/Overrun x4). And you can do double damage 40 times/day too. Oh, you're immune to anything mind-effecting as well. +10 to Fort & Natural Armor?...

This class is basically 3 classes rolled into 1. Something akin to Lightning Warrior.

This of course requires the class to live to level twenty.

just remember this. If the GM wants you dead it doesn't matter what class you are or what you roll. you're still going to DIE

**Eloel** · 2009-09-01, 01:55 AM (ISO 8601)

So, let's all make Pun-Pun...

**Mystic Muse** · 2009-09-01, 01:59 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by ozgun92

So, let's all make Pun-Pun...

never mind.

also this class can STILL be outshined by others. If it can match the wizard in terms of potential power then that's GOOD. It means somebody is doing something right. however the class is still vulnerable to many spells.

and like I said the DM ALLOWED this. I'm not trying to force it upon my DM and he was perfectly free to say no. comparing it to punpun is hardly fair.

**Eloel** · 2009-09-01, 02:04 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Kyuubi

If it can match the wizard in terms of potential power then that's GOOD. It means ~~some~~everybody is doing something ~~right~~wrong.

Here, fixed for you

**Draz74** · 2009-09-01, 02:07 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by ozgun92

Something akin to Lightning Warrior.

Oh, come on. Lightning Warrior gets a bad rap, but it's really a very nicely-balanced class. I mean, it doesn't even get a familiar.

(Somebody had to say it.)

Heh, seriously, this joke still makes me crack up every time. Whoever invented the Lightning Warrior should go with Jonathan Swift (author of "A Modest Proposal ...") in the all-time Satire Hall of Fame ...)

**Mystic Muse** · 2009-09-01, 02:14 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by ozgun92

Here, fixed for you

actually no you didn't. I meant what I said.

Wizards have far too many options that makes them outclass pretty much everything. If a fighter type could potentially match them it'd be a good thing.

even if it would be a bad thing you can't blame everybody for one person's mistake.

**Mystic Muse** · 2009-09-01, 02:15 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Draz74

Oh, come on. Lightning Warrior gets a bad rap, but it's really a very nicely-balanced class. I mean, it doesn't even get a familiar.

(Somebody had to say it.)

Heh, seriously, this joke still makes me crack up every time. Whoever invented the Lightning Warrior should go with Jonathan Swift (author of "A Modest Proposal ...") in the all-time Satire Hall of Fame ...)

I don't get either reference. what's the lightning warrior?

**Eloel** · 2009-09-01, 02:19 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Kyuubi

actually no you didn't. I meant what I said.

Wizards have far too many options that makes them outclass pretty much everything. If a fighter type could potentially match them it'd be a good thing.

You should instead go about reducing Wizard. They're broken beyond belief, matching them will make the concept of balance completely destroyed.

Also, here is Lightning Warrior.

A Modest Proposal is an article about how baby-eating would solve many economic and social problems.

**Kylarra** · 2009-09-01, 02:23 AM (ISO 8601)

Remember, the lightning warrior also can't specialize.

**Eloel** · 2009-09-01, 02:24 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Kylarra

Remember, the lightning warrior also can't specialize.

Well, lack of familiar is some problem, and the lack of cure spells just cripples the class.

**Mystic Muse** · 2009-09-01, 02:26 AM (ISO 8601)

will somebody just answer the original question?

**Kylarra** · 2009-09-01, 02:26 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by ozgun92

Well, lack of familiar is some problem, and the lack of cure spells just cripples the class.

It is truly a class that sacrifices power for flavor.

**Eloel** · 2009-09-01, 02:28 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Kylarra

It is truly a class that sacrifices power for flavor.

Just like Threat...

Original Q's answer. You need to take a +5 LA class with no features to get this class gimped. Str penalty won't be gimping it. Or you can take this class in a gestalt game as a single class. That would get it close to balance.

**Doc Roc** · 2009-09-01, 02:33 AM (ISO 8601)

Okay. Here's my take:

Threat isn't broken, just weird. It does some things too well, but fails to cover a lot of core weaknesses with non-casters. I can still probably one-shot you as a MM sorcerer, or just shut you down with a single solid fog. In exchange, you're immune to a bunch of things no one does, and you have really high saves.

It doesn't get:
Flight
See Invis
Truesight
Meaningfully new combat options
Freedom of movement

It gets:
Weirdly worded bonuses to combat maneuvers that are horribly difficult to line up in a world where move speeds of 600 are one spell away.
MOARRRR Damage.
Free monkey grip.
Immunity to MA.

However, other posters are correct. This class is totally indifferent to your size. More so than most others, in fact. Possibly scarily so. I'd love to hear battle-reports about how it actually works out in real combats. If your GM needs a hand, just tell him or her to drop me a line.

:: malevolent grin ::

**Draz74** · 2009-09-01, 02:38 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Kyuubi

I don't get either reference. what's the lightning warrior?

The Lightning Warrior (linked above) is the funniest thread to ever grace the WotC forums. Priceless comedy ... mostly because so many of the responses completely fumbled their sarcasm checks.

A Modest Proposal is here. An absolutely inspired response to the anti-Irish prejudices Swift saw in the England of his day.

**Mystic Muse** · 2009-09-01, 02:39 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by ozgun92

Just like Threat...

Original Q's answer. You need to take a +5 LA class with no features to get this class gimped. Str penalty won't be gimping it. Or you can take this class in a gestalt game as a single class. That would get it close to balance.

either both me AND my GM are severely underestimating this class or you're severely overestimating it.

more damage. SO WHAT?! that's the point of a melee class.
+10 AC and fort save at level 20. Is that REALLY so bad? And immunity to mind effects? big deal. There are other easy ways to kill something with spells.
double damage. Wizards and some races can still take a melee class out before they get the oppurtunity to use this. LA+5 would destroy this.

**Doc Roc** · 2009-09-01, 02:40 AM (ISO 8601)

In a similar vein, I had someone tell me that my test of spite rules effectively nerfed wizards by making specialization too difficult.

:: sob ::

I think you'll be fine as a small char. Please let me know if it works out okay.

**ericgrau** · 2009-09-01, 02:52 AM (ISO 8601)

A +16 does not "fix" a non-caster class to "catch up" with casters. It's just silly and bad to even consider. Period. Bad is bad. Another thing being bad doesn't make this good. If casters really did walk into fights and say "I win regardless of die roll, with unlimited uses per day" then the solution is to ban casters. Because then the game is boring b/c nothing at all even has a chance of working. But I've never actually seen a problem that great.

It's like... a ninja that flips out and kills an army. Ninjas may be cool and people may say that it happens all the time, but I just don't buy it. Not in reality anyway. The better explanation is that it's just exaggeration b/c ninjas are popular. And casters.

**Doc Roc** · 2009-09-01, 02:57 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by ericgrau

But I've never actually seen a problem that great.

Pray, kind sir, step into my labooooooooooooraaaaaaatory!

**Kylarra** · 2009-09-01, 02:59 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Tidesinger

Pray, kind sir, step into my labooooooooooooraaaaaaatory!

He probably means in his games themselves, rather than in theory...

I hope.

**Eloel** · 2009-09-01, 03:18 AM (ISO 8601)

Melee already does stupendous amounts of damage. Ever heard of Ubercharger?
Buffing them more on the damage-department won't do anyone any good, it'll just make all martial classes but the broken few (read: Threat), obsolete. Suddenly everyone is a Threat. And then what will happen? Will you give +4/level to a new class, which everyone will adopt?

You're not getting martial classes close to caster ones. A martial character that manages to hit a caster already kills the caster. It's just that the caster has around 1000 ways of not getting hit by the martial character. Buffing martiality makes no sense, since Ubercharger is already at the point where it can oneshot anything that has ever existed with a single blow. It's just that it'll never even get that close to a caster.

**Asheram** · 2009-09-01, 03:22 AM (ISO 8601)

This class is poorly named.

Check here for a hint of what it ought to be called.

Spoiler

Show

... Seriously! It've got all the traits correct! Except that it can actually wear armor on top of all that.

**Doc Roc** · 2009-09-01, 03:36 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by ozgun92

You're not getting martial classes close to caster ones. A martial character that manages to hit a caster already kills the caster. It's just that the caster has around 1000 ways of not getting hit by the martial character. Buffing martiality makes no sense, since Ubercharger is already at the point where it can oneshot anything that has ever existed with a single blow. It's just that it'll never even get that close to a caster.

Unless it's backed by a skilled caster. :: gestures :: Which is.... Yeah. Not how you want things to work.

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