Feats at Unusual Levels (3.5)

[Foryn Gilnith]

What ways are there to select general feats at levels not divisible by 3? I'm not talking about fighter/wizard/etc. bonus feats, but general feats. There are many feats with prerequisites that can first be achieved at levels 4, 7, etc.; and being so close to them when feat selection comes around is galling. This question came to me when considering feats that required 5 ranks in a skill.

List of methods thus far:
Chameleon 2 (RoD)
Marshal 1 (Mini)
Bloodlines (UA)
Generic Classes (UA)
Dark Chaos (FC2)
Loremaster (DMG)
Human Paragon 2 (UA)
Half-Elf Paragon 1 (UA)
Heir of Siberys (ECS)
Malconvoker 3 (CS)

[Nohwl]

if you were an elf, you could chaos shuffle out the 6 bonus feats.

[MichielHagen]

Human Paragon level 2
Half-Elf Paragon level 1
Heir of Siberys
Loremaster

[theMycon]

It does say you're allowed to hold off on picking up a feat until you've "earned" another one, right? Wherever it says "every three levels" in the PHB?

As in, you can have one, but at most one, in queue?

Does it mention "on future level-ups" or is it whenever?

[Foryn Gilnith]

No reference to that in the feat section, which is all the places I care to look.

Thanks for the help, all. Adding...

[Douglas]

It does say you're allowed to hold off on picking up a feat until you've "earned" another one, right? Wherever it says "every three levels" in the PHB?

As in, you can have one, but at most one, in queue?

Does it mention "on future level-ups" or is it whenever?

No. Whenever you gain a feat, you have to take it right then and there and spend it on something you qualify for at that time. You cannot postpone taking a feat in order to take one with higher prerequisites.

Likewise with skill points, you must spend them immediately. Neverwinter Nights allows you to save up and spend later, yes, but this is a blatant departure from D&D rules and is probably (I think) there only so they wouldn't have to implement half rank increments for cross class skills.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Loremaster's "Applicable Knowledge" secret gives "one bonus feat". There is no mention of having to meet the prerequisites of this feat. Could one therefore use this to take feats in advance, having them dormant until the prerequisites are met?

[Tukka]

Malconvoker 3.

Of course, it's not really worth utilizing unless you were planning on playing a malconvoker anyway.

[Claudius Maximus]

Loremaster's "Applicable Knowledge" secret gives "one bonus feat". There is no mention of having to meet the prerequisites of this feat. Could one therefore use this to take feats in advance, having them dormant until the prerequisites are met?

I don't think this works due to the general beats specific guideline. Monk bonus feats and other examples of bonus feats that do not require prerequisites always mention this fact. If you get a bonus feat from a source that does not specifically mention that prerequisites are not required, use the normal rules for getting a feat, which state that you need to meet the feat's prerequisites.

[mcl01]

Rogue 10, 13, 16, 19. Feat instead of a special ability.

[Gralamin]

I don't think this works due to the general beats specific guideline. Monk bonus feats and other examples of bonus feats that do not require prerequisites always mention this fact. If you get a bonus feat from a source that does not specifically mention that prerequisites are not required, use the normal rules for getting a feat, which state that you need to meet the feat's prerequisites.

Actually, Specific Beats General. So in this case, a specific source of bonus feat (Lore Master), beats the general rules for Feats. If this didn't exist then Fighters wouldn't need the line

A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

[Eloel]

Fighter 1 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20

Yes, I had to list these.

[Ravens_cry]

Fighter 1 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20

Yes, I had to list these.

No, you didn't.

I'm not talking about fighter/wizard/etc. bonus feats,

[Person_Man]

If you want feats on demand, this build might be of interest you:

Echo the Active:

Human Factotum 3/Warblade 2/Chameleon 5/Warblade 3

At this ECL you get:

• +8 BAB
• All Skills as Class Skills
• Int bonus applied to tons of different checks (Str/Dex Skills, Trip/Bull Rush/Disarm/Grapple, critical confirmation, Saves, etc).
• 4th level manuevers (and you can choose a different one every morning using Martial Study or Martial Stance as one of your floating feats)
• 4th level divine or arcane spells (I suggest Divine spells. Like an Archivist, a Chameleon can use Cleric, Druid, Blackguard, Paladin, Ranger, domain, PrC, spells, but without the need for a prayer book. And many 3rd and 4th level Blackguard/Paladin/Ranger spells are the equivalent of 5th or 6th level Cleric spells (the easiest example is Holy Sword, but the splat books are filled with them).

Take the Exotic Weapon proficiency feat, and learn what it can do. You can swap this out to be any exotic weapon each morning using the Warblade's Weapon Aptitude ability. If you want, you can swap out Warblade for Master of Masks, as it gives you access to every Exotic Weapon.

The Chameleon bonus feat can swap out it's bonus feat every morning.

The Heroics spell (Spell Compendium) gives you a Fighter bonus feat of your choice that you otherwise qualify for. As a 2nd level Sorcerer Wizard spell, it's quite easy for you to cast yourself or put in a wand. It lasts 10 minutes per level, so you rarely need to bother with Persistent Spell or other chicanery.

You could also do a psionic or incarnum or binder version of this build, using your floating bonus feat to gain a different power every morning using Expanded Knowledge, Shape Soulmeld, or Bind Vestige. And/or you can do a Marshal version, to gain your Cha bonus to Bull Rush/Trip/etc checks.

With some creativity and planning, this build can pretty much do anything.

[Douglas]

Actually, Specific Beats General. So in this case, a specific source of bonus feat (Lore Master), beats the general rules for Feats. If this didn't exist then Fighters wouldn't need the line

Specific beats general, yes, but in the case of Loremaster specific is silent on the matter of prerequisites. There is no relevant specific rule, so the general rule applies and you must satisfy the prerequisites.

Oh, and I counter your example of Fighter bonus feats with Monk bonus feats:

At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

If Fighter's statement that he must satisfy prerequisites implies that bonus feats normally do not have to satisfy prerequisites, then the Monk's entry implies the opposite. Attempting to apply these examples as setting precedent gives two directly conflicting precedents, so that doesn't really work either way.

I conclude that the absence of a statement about satisfying prerequisites has no meaning either way, and the general rule applies in such cases. The general rule is that you must satisfy prerequisites in order to "select" a feat. Thus, if you get a bonus feat chosen from either all feats or a limited list, you must satisfy prerequisites unless otherwise stated. If you get a specific pre-chosen feat, prerequisites are ignored.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Person_Man: Though not necessarily on topic, very interesting. I can't believe I never noticed that about Weapon Aptitude.

Loremaster argument: Well, it seems that one could at least conclude that the issue is ambiguous.