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Thread: Baatorans

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Baatorans

    Are there any rules for these prior denizens of the Nine Hells?

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    Default Re: Baatorans

    No. They've only been mentioned once or twice in all of D&D as far as I'm aware. Much like how the Wind Dukes of Aatqua aren't mentioned much, but even less.

    Which is sad to my mind, because they sound cool as all hell. Then again, I personally love ancient planar secrets, so I'm all over that stuff. I would have payed for more books like the Fiendish Codices, but it wasn't to be.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: Baatorans

    Let's ask Asmodeus.

    "Hey Asmodeus, do you know anything about the original Baatorans?"

    "Yes. They were delicious."

    "Nyoro~n..."

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    Default Re: Baatorans

    Their leader, Zargon The Returner, is statted out in Elder Evils.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    Let's ask Asmodeus.

    "Hey Asmodeus, do you know anything about the original Baatorans?"

    "Yes. They were delicious."

    "Nyoro~n..."

    Isn't there some fluff that the Baatorans are still alive somewhere in Hell, but just so deep that they cannot get out.

    Is Asmodeus the last remaining Baatoran and then created the Devils to do his own bidding.... (I know what Mr Big is up to...).

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    Default Re: Baatorans

    Manual of the Planes, page 121:

    Maggoth Thyg: Rumors describe ancient places built below the surface of Malbolge, Below the hellish rock and stone, creatures older than the devils themselves- the ancient baatorians- might still roam.

    A certain hard-to-find defile leads to a cavern whose walls glow with a brain-numbing, grayish light. Boulder falls often clog the defile, but somehow the cavern is reopened time and time again. Devils sent by the Lord of the Sixth to investigate have never returned.

    Terrible cries sometimes issue forth from the cavern, echoing across Malbolge's slopes. Strangely, petitioners on this level cannot hear the cries. But devils can, and the sound is innately terrifying to them.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2009-09-01 at 02:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Baatorans

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Manual of the Planes, page 121:

    Maggoth Thyg: Rumors describe ancient places built below the surface of Malbolge, Below the hellish rock and stone, creatures older than the devils themselves- the ancient baatorians- might still roam.

    A certain hard-to-find defile leads to a cavern whose walls glow with a brain-numbing, grayish light. Boulder falls often clog the defile, but somehow the cavern is reopened time and time again. Devils sent by the Lord of the Sixth to investigate have never returned.

    Terrible cries sometimes issue forth from the cavern, echoing across Malbolge's slopes. Strangely, petitioners on this level cannot hear the cries. But devils can, and the sound is innately terrifying to them.
    That's the one. If devils are scared of it then, whatever it is must be powerful.

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    Default Re: Baatorans

    Or have a high DC for Frightful Presence...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paganboy28 View Post
    Isn't there some fluff that the Baatorans are still alive somewhere in Hell, but just so deep that they cannot get out.
    I'll be honest. I was just setting up a "nyoro~n" joke.

    I'm surprised the Fiendish Codices don't give details on the Baatorans the way they do on the ancient dwellers in the Abyss, though. Maybe it's intended that they be scarier in their obscurity.

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    Default Re: Baatorans

    There is a passing reference in Fiendish Codex 1 to the legend that the ancient baatorians and the obyriths are descended from an older race- the baernoloths, but aside from that, there is very little detail in 3.0 and 3.5.

    Elder Evils mentions that Zargon was "the father of the ancient baatorians" and that Asmodeus butchered most of them himself, but he could not permanently slay Zargon.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2009-09-01 at 02:39 PM.
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    Default Re: Baatorans

    Never heard of them...

    So let me get this straight... baatorans are to devils like obyriths are to demons?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordokai View Post
    Never heard of them...

    So let me get this straight... baatorans are to devils like obyriths are to demons?
    Eh... no. Obyriths are the direct ancestors of ta'anari. Baatorans simply occupied the area Asmodeus wanted to commandeer for his Hell, so he wiped them out.

    Basically, Baatorans didn't actually evolve into devilkind, but were replaced by them.
    Last edited by arguskos; 2009-09-01 at 02:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Baatorans

    I would be interested in knowing more about this
    Adrie, half elven bard. Drawing by Vulion, avatar by CheesePirate. Colored version by Callos_DeTerran. Thanks a lot, you guys.
    This place is not a place of honor…no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here… nothing valued is here.
    "There will come a day so dark you will pray for death. On that day your prayers will be answered."
    Book of shadows, book of night, wake the beast and banish light.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    I'll be honest. I was just setting up a "nyoro~n" joke.

    I'm surprised the Fiendish Codices don't give details on the Baatorans the way they do on the ancient dwellers in the Abyss, though. Maybe it's intended that they be scarier in their obscurity.
    I would imagine their obscurity would be what makes them scarier to the Devils, at least.

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    Default Re: Baatorans

    Not really. Obyriths created the tanar'ri from Chaotic Evil mortal souls, and some have metamorphosed into tanar'ri themselves- such as the wastriliths in Fiend Folio.

    The ancient baatorians, by contrast, have little in common with the devils- they were supplanted by them when Asmodeus and his minions first seized the Nine Hells.

    EDIT: Ninjaed.

    For details on the origins of the tanar'ri, Demonomicon of Iggwilv, especially Demogorgon and Malcanthet, in Dragon Magazine, has the most.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2009-09-01 at 02:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Baatorans

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordokai View Post
    I would be interested in knowing more about this
    There isn't much more to know really. One of the stories of the First Devil's fall from grace says that when he said to the the gods "I'll take there", it was actually occupied with wicked creatures, so he killed them all, and turned it into hell.

    As hamishpence so correctly stated though, Zargon the Returned, master and most powerful Baatoran, was unkillable by Asmodeus, so he was banished to the material plane.

    That's... about it, actually. The Baatorans were included to give the devils a semi-analogue to the obyriths, but with more mystery and only semi-applicable.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: Baatorans

    In theory, one could stat out lesser baatorians by using Zargon as a template.

    Might be interesting to run a "Depths of Malbolge" campaign with the rumored remnants of the baatorians playing a part.
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    Default Re: Baatorans

    Too bad, FCs are one of my favourite suplements. And they are awfully short as it is. To know there are things that I might be missing but have reason to be there is kinda sad.
    Adrie, half elven bard. Drawing by Vulion, avatar by CheesePirate. Colored version by Callos_DeTerran. Thanks a lot, you guys.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    In theory, one could stat out lesser baatorians by using Zargon as a template.

    Might be interesting to run a "Depths of Malbolge" campaign with the rumored remnants of the baatorians playing a part.
    I agree wholeheartedly.
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    Default Re: Baatorans

    Eh, it's WotC. Their track record isn't amazing IMO.

    As for statting out the baatorans, considering we know nothing about them save for a single, unique, representative, I wouldn't worry too much about "reverse engineering" them. Just find a theme that works for you (ie. create creatures more lawful and more evil than devils already are) and run from there.

    A campaign about them WOULD be hardcore though.
    Last edited by arguskos; 2009-09-01 at 03:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Baatorans

    The obyriths seemed to have more chaotic powers, but less evil powers (word of chaos, instead of blasphemy, and so on) suggesting they were Chaotic first, Evil second.

    They also had a line of feats players could take, a bit like Vile feats, but more Chaotic than Evil.

    Same might apply to baatorians, but with Law.
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    Default Re: Baatorans

    Zargon is "only" CR16...

    As father of the baatorians and most powerful... no wonder they were wiped out.

    In the Elder Evil fluff it states that the baatorans were either killed, exiled or forced into slavery. Maybe as a campaign, the demons release the baatorans and all hell breaks loose on... Hell.

    Though, I don't think anyone is stupid enough to take on Asmodeus on his home turf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Eh... no. Obyriths are the direct ancestors of ta'anari.
    IIRC, tanar'ri are actuallly the "natural" denizens of the Abyss when presented with mortal souls, and would therefore be counterparts to baatorians. Baatezu are fallen celestials and are not natural in Baator. Obyriths are incarnations of destructive chaos.

    For the record, both Zargon and the name "Zargon" suck. Sometime later today I might leak out a bit of my own work on the ancient baatorians. Suffice it to say that Zargon, to put it mildly, was not in charge.

    Also: being enslaved or dying out? Choose a more on-topic source for your lore. Better theories involve them ascending into pure malevolence or being sealed away after a massive battle with Asmodeus and his legions.
    Last edited by afroakuma; 2009-09-01 at 03:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    IIRC, tanar'ri are actuallly the "natural" denizens of the Abyss when presented with mortal souls, and would therefore be counterparts to baatorians. Baatezu are fallen celestials and are not natural in Baator. Obyriths are incarnations of destructive chaos.

    For the record, both Zargon and the name "Zargon" suck. Sometime later today I might leak out a bit of my own work on the ancient baatorians. Suffice it to say that Zargon, to put it mildly, was not in charge.
    Eh, it was indicated that the tanar'ri evolved from the obyriths. Misha, the Wolf Spider (the obyrith champion) was said to evolve into a tanar'ri as the war against the Wind Dukes continued, for example. It's pretty heavily indicated.

    Also, you've done some work on the baatorians? Dude! You're holding out on me! You know I love that stuff!

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    I would imagine their obscurity would be what makes them scarier to the Devils, at least.
    Well, what I mean is that WotC may have deliberately left them as an unknown so that DMs could make them as scary as needed, or just let players' imaginations do the work for them. But in universe, yes, I'm sure you're correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    unkillable by Asmodeus


    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The obyriths seemed to have more chaotic powers, but less evil powers (word of chaos, instead of blasphemy, and so on) suggesting they were Chaotic first, Evil second.
    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    IIRC, tanar'ri are actuallly the "natural" denizens of the Abyss when presented with mortal souls, and would therefore be counterparts to baatorians.
    I think the way it went was that the obyriths were the evil side of Chaos, back when the fundamental division in the multiverse was between Law and Chaos. Tanar'ri are properly Chaotic Evil, in that they're the result of mortal souls with all their Good and Evil nonsense ending up on the Chaotic (evil) planes. Essentially, the obyriths are more fundamental while the tanar'ri are more human - very loosely speaking.
    Last edited by kamikasei; 2009-09-01 at 03:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Baatorans

    Where does it say Miska started out as an obyrith?

    Dragon 357: Demogorgon: Prince of Demons, by James Jacobs:

    As mortal life appeared and their souls came to the Abyss, the Queen of Chaos was among the first to cultivate and nurture this new brand of evil. For as they grew, they transformed into a new breed of demon- the tanar'ri.

    The first of this new breed of demons was a twisted, deformed abortion of evil with boneless arms, twin simian heads, reptilian legs, and a twisted tail- a snapping, howling and ultimately uncontrollable monster formed from the primal fears of mortal souls. The Queen of Chaos tossed this creature aside, and those that came after were less broken. Succubi formed from mortal lust. Glabrezu from mortal envy. Alkiliths from mortal sloth. And more, and more. And as the tanar'ri grew, the obyriths called upon their greatest fleshwarpers, the sibriexes, to adjust and transform them more. Before long, the tanar'ri had grown to rival the obyriths in variety and speciality.

    The most powerful of these was Miska the Wolf Spider, and when he matured to a demon lord to rival any of the obyrith lords of old, the Queen of Chaos crowned him the new Prince of Demons and marched on the outer multiverse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Also, you've done some work on the baatorians? Dude! You're holding out on me! You know I love that stuff!
    I'm holding out on everybody, at the moment. But yes, rather a lot. Including their original leader...

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    I think the way it went was that the obyriths were the evil side of Chaos, back when the fundamental division in the multiverse was between Law and Chaos. Tanar'ri are properly Chaotic Evil, in that they're the result of mortal souls with all their Good and Evil nonsense ending up on the Chaotic (evil) planes. Essentially, the obyriths are more fundamental while the tanar'ri are more human - very loosely speaking.
    Yeah, that sounds about right. After all, the obyriths fought against the Wind Dukes, etc. etc.

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    Default Re: Baatorans

    Come on afroakuma, we're all dying to know....
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    Come on afroakuma, we're all dying to know....
    Spilling the beans isn't very "me." However, I think it's safe to release the name of the Baatorians' original leader:

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    Baat, of course. What did you think it was named for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    Spilling the beans isn't very "me." However, I think it's safe to release the name of the Baatorians' original leader:

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    Baat, of course. What did you think it was named for?
    He was of course exiled from his realm, and left in a hurry... >_>
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    He was gone when the morning came.
    Last edited by Tiki Snakes; 2009-09-01 at 05:03 PM.

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