Vargouille (and Dread Necro) Question

[Optimystik]

The Vargouille is an adorable fiendish creature that looks like a winged demon-head.



I noticed among its abilities its Kiss, which allows it to turn victims into Vargouilles themselves. I came across this creature because it is listed as one of the choices of familiar for the Dread Necromancer.

A couple of questions then occurred to me:

1) Is there a limit to how many Vargouilles a single Vargouille can create? Could it theoretically kiss someone in a village, then 6-24 hours later when the new Vargouille appears, kiss someone else? Could Vargouilles reproduce exponentially that way? Can it keep kissing a paralyzed foe until it fails its fort save?

2) Can a Vargouille familiar create another Vargouille(s) with this ability?

3) Will any method of paralysis work to enable the kiss, such as a lvl 20 Dread Necromancer's lich touch?

[Deth Muncher]

The Vargouille is an adorable fiendish creature that looks like a winged demon-head.



I noticed among its abilities its Kiss, which allows it to turn victims into Vargouilles themselves. I came across this creature because it is listed as one of the choices of familiar for the Dread Necromancer.

A couple of questions then occurred to me:

1) Is there a limit to how many Vargouilles a single Vargouille can create? Could it theoretically kiss someone in a village, then 6-24 hours later when the new Vargouille appears, kiss someone else? Could Vargouilles reproduce exponentially that way? Can it keep kissing a paralyzed foe until it fails its fort save?

2) Can a Vargouille familiar create another Vargouille(s) with this ability?

3) Will any method of paralysis work to enable the kiss, such as a lvl 20 Dread Necromancer's lich touch?

I (unfortunately) made a DN with a Vargie that never got played. So, with this knowledge in hand:
1.There is no limit to the best of my knowledge on spawned Vargs, only the restriction in time to make them.
2. Yes, they can.
3. Likely, but the Vargs have their own paralysis attack. You should get the familiar to take the thing that ups its Save DCs to make it better.

[Johanas]

Yes, I think so. To all of it. Only DN I ever played took a ghostly visage, he carried it around inside him. Had it manifest it's face on random parts of him to freak people out. I never really stopped to look that closely at Vargouilles, you may have just found the Loophole of the Week!

[Deth Muncher]

Yes, I think so. To all of it. Only DN I ever played took a ghostly visage, he carried it around inside him. Had it manifest it's face on random parts of him to freak people out. I never really stopped to look that closely at Vargouilles, you may have just found the Loophole of the Week!

Minor problem: The new Vargs aren't under the DN's control.

[Jack Zander]

Yes all of it works, but not to your benefit. The created Vargs are under their own free will. All you'll do is produce a bunch of flying heads that will fly around and create more.

[Deth Muncher]

Yes all of it works, but not to your benefit. The created Vargs are under their own free will. All you'll do is produce a bunch of flying heads that will fly around and create more.

It's like the Wightocalypse scenario, only less likely to succeed.

[Fishy]

I thought for sure that anything you summon or take as a familiar automatically doesn't have any sort of 'Create Spawn' or 'Summon Backup' abilities.

[Optimystik]

I (unfortunately) made a DN with a Vargie that never got played. So, with this knowledge in hand:
1.There is no limit to the best of my knowledge on spawned Vargs, only the restriction in time to make them.
2. Yes, they can.
3. Likely, but the Vargs have their own paralysis attack. You should get the familiar to take the thing that ups its Save DCs to make it better.

Excellent...

Yes all of it works, but not to your benefit. The created Vargs are under their own free will. All you'll do is produce a bunch of flying heads that will fly around and create more.

Hmm... maybe mine can intercede on my behalf? They don't gain the "Speak with other animals of their kind" familiar ability, but they can speak Infernal so they shouldn't need it, right?

Anyway, it was more an idle thought. Say my Necro is busy looting the graveyard in some backwater village, and my Varg is off in the town making more of himself out of the townsfolk. I end up scolding it, and fleeing as the remaining townsfolk battle the pack of vargs that end up being created by my amorous familiar.

Wouldn't I be able to animate the bodies left behind by the newly created Vargouilles? They're missing heads, but otherwise intact.

[PanNarrans]

Alternatively, could a Vargouille familiar turn his Dread Necromancer into spawn?
I don't know of any rule that says undead must lose their memories and class abilities, although the Cha drain would hurt.
Free fly speed!

[Optimystik]

Alternatively, could a Vargouille familiar turn his Dread Necromancer into spawn?
I don't know of any rule that says undead must lose their memories and class abilities, although the Cha drain would hurt.
Free fly speed!

Kissing my own Varg would probably be the single dumbest thing I could possibly do, but I'm sure there's some way to exploit it. I'd have to do it before I became undead though, since I'd be immune to the kiss at that point.

I wonder... would my soul be in my headless body (and then float off to the afterlife), or would it be inside the newly created Varg flapping over my corpse?

[Krrth]

Kissing my own Varg would probably be the single dumbest thing I could possibly do, but I'm sure there's some way to exploit it. I'd have to do it before I became undead though, since I'd be immune to the kiss at that point.

I wonder... would my soul be in my headless body (and then float off to the afterlife), or would it be inside the newly created Varg flapping over my corpse?

If I remember correctly, you actually become the Varg. For all intents and purposes, you are stuck until someone kills the new you are resurrects you.

[JeenLeen]

Hmm... maybe mine can intercede on my behalf? They don't gain the "Speak with other animals of their kind" familiar ability, but they can speak Infernal so they shouldn't need it, right?
.

If they can speak on their own, and although I haven't looked at them in the book I imagine they know at least some languages (being heads), then they should be able to speak naturally to one another without that special ability.

Maybe if your familiar had Diplomacy high enough (or mediocre if going by RAW for diplomacy), it probably could intercede for them not to try to transform you, at least part of the time.

Edit: looked at the link and saw they speak Infernal.

[Person_Man]

A Paladin's Special Mount can command creatures of it's own kind. I know that you can make your Special Mount your Animal Companion with Devoted Tracker. I'm sure there's a way to make your Familiar your Special Mount somewhere. You could pull it off by making your Familiar your Animal Companion by going Druid 3/Wizard 3/Paladin 4 or Prestige Paladin 2 or Triadic Knight (Champions of Valor) 1.

But I think you then you run into alignment problems unless you're using one of the variant Evil Paladins.

Anywho, I hope that helps.

[Another_Poet]

1) Is there a limit to how many Vargouilles a single Vargouille can create?

There is not, but see below.

Can it keep kissing a paralyzed foe until it fails its fort save?

Although the entry does not say this, many such abilities have a clause that goes something like this: if the victim makes its save, they are immune for 24 hours. This may be unnecessary when the vargouille is a single encounter, but if you're taking one with you everywhere you go it would be a good houserule to add. If I were your GM this would be my preference - just one Kiss per paralysed target per day.

2) Can a Vargouille familiar create another Vargouille(s) with this ability?

Yes.

3) Will any method of paralysis work to enable the kiss, such as a lvl 20 Dread Necromancer's lich touch?

Yes.

Now if I were GMing, I would offer you three options on how to work this Vargouille familiar. Once you choose one, it's permanent. Thjey are:

A) Max undead, min control.
There is no limit to how many Vargouilles your familiar can make. But once they are made, they are not under the control of you OR your familiar. Your familiar can speak to them, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will listen; a diplomacy check would be needed each time. With a huge penalty because they are, you know, undead heads.


B) Med undead, med control.
There is a limit on how many Vargouilles your familiar can make. It is limited by the maximum number of HD of undead your familiar can control, as if your familiar were using Rebuke Undead. Any abilities that boost the HD limit on Rebuke Undead boost the HD limit of Vargouilles your familiar can make. The benefit of this approach is that the vargouilles are under your familiar's command (the GM still decides their actions, but based on what orders you give them). AND they don't count against the number of HD you yourself can control.

C) Min undead, max control.
There is a limit on how many Vargouilles your familiar can make. It is limited by the maximum number of HD of undead you yourself can control with Rebuke Undead, and coutns against your Rebuke HD limit. The advantage is that these vargouilles are completely under your command. You decide their actions at all times.

ap

[ZeroNumerous]

Personally, I'd go with the Imp, Quasit or Ghostly Visage. All three are just plain better. Sure, Vargs get you free undead but in just a few levels they'll stop being effective. Whereas Imps/Quasits/Visages give you Detect Magic/Suggestion/True Seeing respectively.

[Optimystik]

A) Max undead, min control.
There is no limit to how many Vargouilles your familiar can make. But once they are made, they are not under the control of you OR your familiar. Your familiar can speak to them, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will listen; a diplomacy check would be needed each time. With a huge penalty because they are, you know, undead heads.

Actually, Vargs are Outsiders (not Undead), so I think this is the only option that would work. On the plus side though, Vargs have ranks in Intimidate, so maybe mine can use that to get the others to leave me alone.

And I still didn't get an answer for this question: can I reanimate the headless bodies that my Varg has inadvertently created?

Personally, I'd go with the Imp, Quasit or Ghostly Visage. All three are just plain better. Sure, Vargs get you free undead but in just a few levels they'll stop being effective. Whereas Imps/Quasits/Visages give you Detect Magic/Suggestion/True Seeing respectively.

That... I did not think about. Vargs definitely seem subpar in comparison, wightocalypse or no.

[Myou]

After seeing that picture and looknig them up I find vargouille's strangely erotic.

[Optimystik]

After seeing that picture and looknig them up I find vargouille's strangely erotic.

*smooch*

[Myou]

*smooch*

Oh baby!

Optimystik, you rogue, you! <3

[Myrmex]

Ewwwwwwwwww.

[Myou]

Ewwwwwwwwww.

It's ok, I made my save!

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Now, if you homeruled the 24 hours thing...

Vargouille make-out time!

[Myou]

Now, if you homeruled the 24 hours thing...

Vargouille make-out time!

I must discuss this with my DM....

[ZeroNumerous]

That... I did not think about. Vargs definitely seem subpar in comparison, wightocalypse or no.

I got that mixed up. The imp is the one with the suggestion ability. The quasit has Cause Fear instead. They also both have detect magic.

Still, it's more useful than killing a lot of commoners.