To fix Two Weapon Fighting

[TheWerdna]

Ok I’ve been trying to work out a way to make Two Weapon fighting more on par with using a 2hander. So far, this is what I have come up with.

1) Two Weapon Fighting feat now requires only 13 dex down from 15. As your base atk bonus goes up you going additional offhand attacks (ITWF and GTWF worked into the feat)

2) Improved Two Weapon fighting is basically a completely new feat. It now lets you attack with your offhand weapon as part of a standard action. Dex required is now 15, down from 17

3) Greater Two Weapon fighting now reduces the penalties for Two Weapon fighting by a additional 2 and your off hand now uses your full STR bonus when fighting with two weapons. Requires 17 dex

4) Two Weapon def now gives +1 Ac for every TWF feat you have (max of+4)

5) Two Weapon Charge (feat) +2 bonus on Damage with offhand weapon when charging

6) Two Weapon Spring Atk (feat) Requires TFW and Spring Atk
+2 bonus to AC until your next turn if player successfully hits with both weapons as part of a Spring Atk.

Any other suggestions on how to improve Two Weapon fighting

[Myrmex]

Here's how I do it:
1) Everyone gets the benefits of weapon finesse.
2) Weapon finesse now lets you add your dex to damage on light weapons
3) TWF is one feat that grants you an extra attack with your offhand for every attack you have with your main hand. The same dex requirements & penalties still apply.

[rezplz]

I'm not really sure if TWF really needs to be fixed at all. Classes like the rogue, for example, really love it for the massive amounts of sneak attack damage they can do. Why make it even more awesome?

Also: Two weapon defense. As you've "fixed" it there, a dagger in your off-hand can give you as much protection as a heavy shield. Or a tower shield, if you take all of the feats. Yeeeaaah not liking that.

[Fax Celestis]

Also: Two weapon defense. As you've "fixed" it there, a dagger in your off-hand can give you as much protection as a heavy shield. Or a tower shield, if you take all of the feats. Yeeeaaah not liking that.

You've never heard of a parrying dagger?

[Eldariel]

Ok I’ve been trying to work out a way to make Two Weapon fighting more on par with using a 2hander. So far, this is what I have come up with.

1) Two Weapon Fighting feat now requires only 13 dex down from 15. As your base atk bonus goes up you going additional offhand attacks (ITWF and GTWF worked into the feat)

Dunno about the Dex-change (seems kinda pointless as most TWFers are high Dex-types anyways and it obviously takes a lot of Dexterity to pull off D&D-style TWFing); the off-hands should be a given.

2) Improved Two Weapon fighting is basically a completely new feat. It now lets you attack with your offhand weapon as part of a standard action. Dex required is now 15, down from 17

This should be a part of the first feat. It's required to be on par with any other character on level 1 simply because you need to be able to attack and move.

3) Greater Two Weapon fighting now reduces the penalties for Two Weapon fighting by a additional 2 and your off hand now uses your full STR bonus when fighting with two weapons. Requires 17 dex

*Shrug* Sure, why not. There are already mechanics for both in class, but offering it as a feat shouldn't be a bad idea. Still, I think you're doing it wrong by keeping Improved and Greater TWF in the game. Their very existence is one of the principal hurdles of TWF; being a competent TWFer requires 3 feats while Two-Handing needs 1.

Though naming this "Improved Two-Weapon Fighting" could work. If you ask "What about Rangers?", just give them TWF on 2, TWD on 6 and Two-Weapon Rend on 11. More in line with what archers get anyways.

4) Two Weapon def now gives +1 Ac for every TWF feat you have (max of+4)

Rather make it increase as you gain new iteratives (as if you got the additional TWD feats); this roughly keeps up with the rate by which shields accrue bonuses, making it a somewhat relevant option not to use an animated shield (though it's still a feat over some gold, so meh; add mechanic to allow one "block" [either static AC bonus or opposed attack roll] per round and you're done).

5) Two Weapon Charge (feat) +2 bonus on Damage with offhand weapon when charging

...this is worth a feat? First, you haven't even given the TWFer the ability to attack with both weapons on a charge (should be a part of TWF, btw). Second, +2 damage on one weapon under specific circumstances? Really? Make them able to full attack on charge or something. Call the feat...Pounce.

6) Two Weapon Spring Atk (feat) Requires TFW and Spring Atk
+2 bonus to AC until your next turn if player successfully hits with both weapons as part of a Spring Atk.

...so wait, a character needs to invest five feats to be able to give up most of his attacks in a round? First, remove Spring Attack prerequisites. Second, make the characters actually able to hit with both weapons while Spring Attacking (actually, while at it, let them take any other extra attacks they've got at their highest attack bonus, such as Haste, Whirling Frenzy, etc. Hell, let them take iteratives too).

Third...actually, just remove the whole "Spring Attack"-feat from the game (and Shot on the Run and Mobile Casting and whatever the hell they've crammed in) and replace it with "Act on Move" which allows taking a Standard Action between movements. Even better, get rid of the idiotic movement system D&D uses and just give this to everyone by default.


As for other feats...well, Myrmex just ninja'd me so just read up there. Basically, everyone can use Dex to attack on finessables anyways and Weapon Finesse gives you Dex to Damage.

[rezplz]

You've never heard of a parrying dagger?

Yes, I have. But it shouldn't be better than a shield is what I'm saying.

Edit: Although, if you take improved shield bash and the TWF feats, TW defense included, I could see the AC shooting way up there...

[Townopolis]

the problem with TWD giving as much AC as a shield is not a problem with TWD.

It's that shields suck.

I believe there is a thread devoted to this fact...

[Edit]: Your thread, actually.

[Doc Roc]

Just roll knowledge devotion into ranger\scout\rogue as a class feature.

[Zovc]

Yes, I have. But it shouldn't be better than a shield is what I'm saying.

Edit: Although, if you take improved shield bash and the TWF feats, TW defense included, I could see the AC shooting way up there...

You could always cap it to your dexterity modifier. Thataway you have to at least be quick to use a dagger as well as a less quick person could use a shield.

[rezplz]

the problem with TWD giving as much AC as a shield is not a problem with TWD.

It's that shields suck.

I believe there is a thread devoted to this fact...

[Edit]: Your thread, actually.

lolololol. Very true, very true. ;P

I guess the reason that I didn't think TWF needed to be fixed is that in a mostly-core game, one of the players is a fighter TWF-ing using kukris and he deals about the same damage as the orc barbarian using an adamantium greatsword most rounds. But then again, we don't optimize a whole bunch - just in bits and pieces.

[ericgrau]

^ Yeah without cheese the difference isn't that notice-able. But TWF really does deal a little bit less damage.

As said there are uses for TWF. You want to make it so it's always better than THF? Then why would anyone play THF? Exactly equal? Good luck with that. It's already not that much lower damage, but people still complain. Not to mention that would mean that the existing good TWF options would get a power boost.

Besides sneak attack, TWF is also good for tripping. Tripping isn't that AB dependent so having an extra attack is nice. Other tricks can likewise benefit from a 2nd weapon like spell storing weapons and poison.

[Eldariel]

As said people like rogues already like TWF. You want to make it so it's always better than THF? Then why would anyone play THF? Exactly equal? Good luck with that. It's already not that much lower damage, but people still complain. Not to mention that would mean that the existing good TWF options would get a power boost.

He wants to make it a viable alternative for Fighters; a worthy pursuit if you ask me. Decent Rangers while at it.

[ericgrau]

Couple campaigns ago I was with a TWF half-orc barbarian / ranger damage dealer we called "the Cuisanart". He did crazy amounts of damage, especially against his favored enemy. Like I said, take cheese away from THF and it's hard to notice how much less damage TWF does. It's only a little. I've seen plenty of comments like rezplz's where people think it's the same. But if you want to optimize then slip in a little bonus damage, tripping, or etc. It's still optional tho.

[Doc Roc]

I have to wonder, how much "cheese" did you take away? I'd love to see builds side-by-side.

[Eldariel]

Couple campaigns ago I was with a TWF half-orc barbarian / ranger damage dealer we called "the Cuisanart". He did crazy amounts of damage, especially against his favored enemy. Like I said, take cheese away from THF and it's hard to notice how much less damage TWF does. It's only a little. I've seen plenty of comments like rezplz's where people think it's the same. But if you want to optimize then slip in a little bonus damage, tripping, or etc. It's still optional tho.

It's still 3 feats for something others don't need a feat for. That's simply too much. Sure, in Core-only games it doesn't really matter since there are no martial feats worth taking (you'll soon be running with your Weapon Focuses simply because there's nothing better), but if we add enough decent feats to Core to make feats relevant to non-casters, the 3-feat cost of TWF suddenly puts the Two-Weapon Fighter far behind.

And he never gets the final iterative, which while not all that useful (though vs. MM opponents, even it has a decent chance of hitting), is still a random drawback that has no reason to be there.

[ericgrau]

Meh, IMO don't add them then . But seriously if you like to up the power of all the feats in your games then ya you gotta boost existing feats to match. I can see the last TWF not existing for the sake of preventing player mistakes; it's questionable if even the -10 one is worth a feat. You can eventually grab the epic feat perfect two weapon fighting if you must.

I have to wonder, how much "cheese" did you take away? I'd love to see builds side-by-side.

They were a an anti min-max group, but some non-core books were still used. By "cheese" I mean things like shock trooper, leap attack, and wraithstrike. Irridisregardless, there's a dozen stories of people saying they saw the same thing when they play. Prolly forum newcomers who haven't learned the multi-book char op tricks yet.

[Doc Roc]

I'm not sure how I feel about your perspective on my interests.

[Myrmex]

It's still 3 feats for something others don't need a feat for. That's simply too much. Sure, in Core-only games it doesn't really matter since there are no martial feats worth taking (you'll soon be running with your Weapon Focuses simply because there's nothing better), but if we add enough decent feats to Core to make feats relevant to non-casters, the 3-feat cost of TWF suddenly puts the Two-Weapon Fighter far behind.

And he never gets the final iterative, which while not all that useful (though vs. MM opponents, even it has a decent chance of hitting), is still a random drawback that has no reason to be there.

Especially with rogues.

I hate feat chains, especially to do stuff like damage. I can understand getting feats that increase your action economy, but +1 to hit? +2 to damage? Bleh.

[Talya]

I guess the reason that I didn't think TWF needed to be fixed is that in a mostly-core game, one of the players is a fighter TWF-ing using kukris and he deals about the same damage as the orc barbarian using an adamantium greatsword most rounds.

And you don't see this as a problem? That player using dual kukris had to spend feats merely to equal the orc barbarian some of the time? If you're spending a feat, shouldn't it give you an advantage of some kind?

Even if (and it's a big if) a TWF fighter can equal the damage of a barbarian with a greatsword, they're spending 3 feats over the longhaul to do it, and the barbarian doesn't have to spend ANY on improving their damage to keep up.

I'm actually not a big fan of TWF doing equal damage to a 2hander, but believe the advantage should come in other areas - defense being the primary one.

[Master_Rahl22]

Biggest single boon I've found for TWF is the Collision enhancement from MIC. +2 enhancement to add 5 damage. So, you get 2 +1 Collision whatevers for 18,000 and you're now doing 5 extra damage with every hit. The second biggest boon I've found for TWF is Tome of Battle. Tiger Claw maneuvers like Dancing/Raging Mongoose let you make extra attacks with each weapon you hold, and the Bloodclaw Master prestige class does exactly what you're GTWF feat does, remove all penalties for TWF and allow you to add your full Str bonus to offhand weapons.

I think the only real fix needed is to have the TWF feat add an extra attack per each iterative attack. Most bonus feats players squeeze out end up coming at level 1, from being human, taking flaws, etc. You still end up stuck with spending your level 6 and 12 feat on more TWF for extra attacks. If you want to add more feats, Pounce and the like aren't bad ideas, but they are also available from classes.

[Person_Man]

For me, the fix for TWF is Multi-Weapon Fighting. Find a way to get an extra hand or two (there are several ways), and one feat replaces three. There's no reason to create an elaborate list of house rules when a solution exists in RAW.

[Doc Roc]

It costs three feats.

Let's extrapolate this:

You are non-human. Let's say you're a paladin or something similar. Something suspiciously without bonus feats. Aha! A crusader.

Do you see where this is going? You can't achieve parity with your 2HF comrade until level six, where he begins to wildly outpace you using shocktrooper or even class features such as maneuvers which naturally favor 2HF. As a Warblade, you fare better, but not well, forced to spend most of your maneuvers on tiger claw and struggle to keep even, even then. You will, in short, be made of fail.

[arguskos]

So, TWF fixes? Roll everything into two feats. Make one avaliable at level 1, and the other at level 6. Ta-da! You are now on par, timing-wise, with THF (Power Attack=level 1, Shock Trooper=level 6).

To actually address the feats themselves, roll the entire TWF line into the level 1 feat. The level 6 should be something along the lines of bonus damage and bonuses to hit for each attack you have (so it scales with level, since you get more attacks as you level). This way, you have lots of attacks, and when it starts mattering that you actually HIT with them, you get bonuses to hit and damage with them.

There, fixed. Inelegant perhaps, and in need to balance checks, but probably works fine.

[TheWerdna]

The main reason im asking about this is becuas my group is starting a new campain soon and the DM has asked me to help him fix some of the problems he sees in 3.5 (why i was asked to help, i have no idea)

So from the feeback i should put TWF, ITWF, and GTWF into one feat, have ITWF reduce the pentety of TWF.

You should be able to use your offhand in a standard action from level one

Two Weapon Def will just give +2 Ac instead of its normal +! and ITWD and GTWD do normal effect (so with 3 feats you cna get +4 Ac instead of +3)

Two Weapon Spring Atack no longer require the springatk feat.

TWF needs 15 dec and ITWF needs 17 dex

Any other suggestions?

PS: also, any ideas for more feats for TWF, kinda like how there are tons of Ranged feats that give you more options and thing you can do (manyshot for example)

[Eldariel]

The main reason im asking about this is becuas my group is starting a new campain soon and the DM has asked me to help him fix some of the problems he sees in 3.5 (why i was asked to help, i have no idea)

So from the feeback i should put TWF, ITWF, and GTWF into one feat, have ITWF reduce the pentety of TWF.

You should be able to use your offhand in a standard action from level one

Two Weapon Def will just give +2 Ac instead of its normal +! and ITWD and GTWD do normal effect (so with 3 feats you cna get +4 Ac instead of +3)

Two Weapon Spring Atack no longer require the springatk feat.

TWF needs 15 dec and ITWF needs 17 dex

Any other suggestions?

PS: also, any ideas for more feats for TWF, kinda like how there are tons of Ranged feats that give you more options and thing you can do (manyshot for example)

More are printed in various sources. For example, PHBII contains Two-Weapon Rend which is fairly decent actually. I personally prefer this version, but the one in PHBII is decent too.

I like how the Epic version (which is decidedly non-epic requirement-wise) cares about the weapon damage instead of making it arbitrary though. PHBII also has Two-Weapon Pounce, though that's a poor feat as it only allows 1 attack with each weapon on a charge (which should be default option by just picking Two-Weapon Fighting).


Double Hit [Miniatures Handbook] allows you to attack once with both weapons on an attack of opportunity - an excellent feat and one that should be offered as a default option. Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting [Complete Adventurer] isn't entirely horrible as it enables you to Power Attack while TWFing. You need massive bonuses to hit (such as Dervish) to make it worthwhile though.

Just as few examples.

[Emy]

Irridisregardless

I really hope you used this abomination ironically, rather than actually believing it that it's a word.

[Skorj]

The main reason im asking about this is becuas my group is starting a new campain soon and the DM has asked me to help him fix some of the problems he sees in 3.5 (why i was asked to help, i have no idea)

So from the feeback i should put TWF, ITWF, and GTWF into one feat, have ITWF reduce the pentety of TWF.

You should be able to use your offhand in a standard action from level one

Two Weapon Def will just give +2 Ac instead of its normal +! and ITWD and GTWD do normal effect (so with 3 feats you cna get +4 Ac instead of +3)

Two Weapon Spring Atack no longer require the springatk feat.

TWF needs 15 dec and ITWF needs 17 dex

Any other suggestions?

PS: also, any ideas for more feats for TWF, kinda like how there are tons of Ranged feats that give you more options and thing you can do (manyshot for example)

Don't forget Whirlwind. Whirlwind and TWF should really stack, just by rule of cool, though I'm not sure where the balance is.

I really hope you used this abomination ironically, rather than actually believing it that it's a word.

Don't misunderestimate his grammar skills, they have been enstrongulated.

[Tiktakkat]

Eliminate the concept of "Full Attack".
That will also do wonders for reconciling power issues for all martial classes compared to spellcasters at higher levels.

[Eldariel]

Eliminate the concept of "Full Attack".
That will also do wonders for reconciling power issues for all martial classes compared to spellcasters at higher levels.

Wait, what? Are you proposing that you ever get only 1-2 attacks on high levels? If you mean making full attacks as a standard action though, I agree.

[Dairun Cates]

Honestly, as someone already pointed out, TWF works perfectly fine for rogues. Without any real cheese, you can just take TWF + Weapon Finesse + Crippling strike at level 10 and you'll be a pretty nasty little bugger. That's literally just a feat chain + a feat rogues already take + Something OTHER than Improved Evasion.

Sure, it's not going to do anything for constructs or undead, but that's why people have adventuring parties and back-up weapons. Most other things aren't going to be happy about that strength drain.