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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    As long as I didn't know it was going to happen so I don't suffer beforehand, and as long as it happens a good while after 2012. I mean, if I don't know it's going to happen I'm not going to complain when it happens. At least wait til after October.
    I don't agree that it's moral or anything, because free will and the chance for happiness and all that. You want to stop suffering, volunteer and give to charity and work on stopping suffering while letting others not suffer. If it's personal unhappiness or pain being suffered, there's help for that as well. If THAT doesn't work, try some assisted suicide, but don't bring the rest of us down.

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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    Mr. Silver: Wasn't your degree in philosophy? It'd certainly explain why you're able to disprove Ichneumon step by step while the majority of us are just sputtering out the refutation and the conclusion.

    horngeek: Anybody sufficiently powerful to retroactively end existence has no superiors, only peers.

    Ichneumon: You are not my superior. As you are also even further out on the scale of callousness than I am, I'd not like to be able to call you a peer either. Will let other people be the judge of that.

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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    I'm honestly quite surprised how someone could call me callous while my sole motivation is the well being of others.

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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichneumon View Post
    I'm honestly quite surprised how someone could call me callous while my sole motivation is the well being of others.
    Because you refuse to accept that others might have a say about whether or not they'd like to be completely unmade.
    And no, what you're advocating doesn't futher the well-being of others. It's essentially an ostrich's tactics on a cosmic scale - whoops, the world isn't ideal, so let's sweep it all under the carpet by unmaking it. It's not the way to do things in everyday life, and it certainly doesn't work in relation to the entire mankind.
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  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    Because you refuse to accept that others might have a say about whether or not they'd like to be completely unmade.
    And no, what you're advocating doesn't futher the well-being of others. It's essentially an ostrich's tactics on a cosmic scale - whoops, the world isn't ideal, so let's sweep it all under the carpet by unmaking it. It's not the way to do things in everyday life, and it certainly doesn't work in relation to the entire mankind.
    Well, you are right that it is about not wanting to be responsible for the creation of a non ideal world.

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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichneumon View Post
    That's also quite ironic, as my drive for preventing suffering and therefore preventing the creation of the univerise are only driven by a care for the well being of others.
    And that's where your logic hits a brick wall, bonces off it, gets warped in a time stream and then stops at a bar and gets severely drunk Since there would be no "others"!


    (Edit: Why do this reasoning make me think of Judge Dredd?
    ...I remember now; the original Judge Death story arc: An alternative world where the law enforcement realized that all crimes were committed by the living, so they made life itself a crime.)
    Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2009-09-03 at 08:29 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichneumon View Post
    Well, you are right that it is about not wanting to be responsible for the creation of a non ideal world.
    So instead of trying to make the world as good as possible - which you could do if you had the ability to unmake it - you'd rather, metaphorically speaking, sweep it under the carpet and pretend it never happened because it's not "ideal"? Nothing is ever ideal and never will be, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.
    Last edited by Morty; 2009-09-03 at 08:35 AM.
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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by OverdrivePrime View Post
    Let's take this from the other direction.

    There is nothing. Void. Time does not yet exist. Somehow an awareness briefly coalesces into being. That awareness is you. You have the realization that with a certain action, you could cause an entire reality to spring into being - infinite in complexity and diversity, possibly infinite in duration. After 10-20 billion years, something called life will spring up on some of the orbs of rock and liquid that will eventually be created. That life has the capacity to experience joy and love - not guaranteed, but it has the capacity.
    And you know that as this reality on through what will one day be called time, an increasing percentage of that life will experience even greater joys and more powerful love.

    Would you create this universe?

    I hope so.
    ::Grins:: ::Points at his username.::

    In a hummingbird's heartbeat, I would create a thousand thousand thousand worlds, and mourn that I could not do more.

  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    So instead of trying to make the world as good as possible - which you could do if you had the ability to unmake it - you'd rather, metaphorically speaking, sweep it under the carpet and pretend it never happened because it's not "ideal"? Nothing is ever ideal and never will be, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.
    Yeah, except for the fact that I would actually make sure it actually never did happen, because of chronomantic powers... I know the world is not ideal right now, but that doesn't mean it is okay to actively or passively create something that is not ideal.

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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichneumon View Post
    Yeah, except for the fact that I would actually make sure it actually never did happen, because of chronomantic powers... I know the world is not ideal right now, but that doesn't mean it is okay to actively or passively create something that is not ideal.
    "Sweep it under the carpet" was a metaphor, you know. Its meaning was that unmaking the world rather than trying to make it better is a coward's way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    "Sweep it under the carpet" was a metaphor, you know. Its meaning was that unmaking the world rather than trying to make it better is a coward's way.
    I understood the metaphor. I'm not sure if it would be cowardly however, as it would take much courage (and propobly selflessness to do something like that, when you have such great powers) to decide to do something as noble as that, particularly because you would never, as you said, be able to achieve an ideal like that in any other way.
    Last edited by Ichneumon; 2009-09-03 at 08:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichneumon View Post
    I understood the metaphor. I'm not sure if it would be cowardly however, as it would take much courage (and propobly selflessness to do something like that, when you have such great powers) to decide to do something as noble as that.
    And did it ever cross your mind to makes sure, say, Holocaust or both World Wars never happened, but let all the good stuff go its course?
    And I'm not even going to waste time arguing that absolute nothingness isn't ideal in any way.
    Last edited by Morty; 2009-09-03 at 08:54 AM.
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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichneumon View Post
    I'm honestly quite surprised how someone could call me callous while my sole motivation is the well being of others.
    It's because your concept of the well-being of others is so completely incompatible with other people's idea of their own well-being. For example, if I decided that suffering just makes you stronger, and then did everything in my power to make you suffer as much as possible, you might call me callous, even if my only motivation was your well-being. (Note that there have been more than a few novels with exactly this idea as a premise!) It's merely the opposite side of the same coin.
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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichneumon View Post
    I understood the metaphor. I'm not sure if it would be cowardly however, as it would take much courage (and propobly selflessness to do something like that, when you have such great powers) to decide to do something as noble as that, particularly because you would never, as you said, be able to achieve an ideal like that in any other way.
    I think your definition of Noble and Selflessness is the total opposite of the actual meaning of the words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrian View Post
    It's because your concept of the well-being of others is so completely incompatible with other people's idea of their own well-being. For example, if I decided that suffering just makes you stronger, and then did everything in my power to make you suffer as much as possible, you might call me callous, even if my only motivation was your well-being. (Note that there have been more than a few novels with exactly this idea as a premise!) It's merely the opposite side of the same coin.
    That makes sense. I did understood that the term "callousness" was used subjectively and it was the only logical use, of it. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    And did it ever cross your mind to makes sure, say, Holocaust or both World Wars never happened, but let all the good stuff go its course?
    And I'm not even going to waste time arguing that absolute nothingness isn't ideal in any way.
    Okay, now I can see this thread getting locked. Was mentioning a few of history's atrocities really needed? We can all think of things that happened in history to try to make it better, but you yourself said it would never become ideal.

    It's completely your choice whether or not you want to be a part of this debate. If you feel you are waisting your time, feel free not to continue.
    Last edited by Ichneumon; 2009-09-03 at 09:00 AM.

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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichneumon View Post
    Okay, now I can see this thread getting locked. Was mentioning a few of history's atrocities really needed? We can all think of things that happened in history to try to make it better, but you yourself said it would never become ideal.
    What about mentioning real atrocities makes the thread any more likely to get locked? Mentioning them doesn't automatically make it a religious or political discussion.
    And no, it would never become ideal. But everything is better than there simply being nothing ever.
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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichneumon View Post
    I understood the metaphor. I'm not sure if it would be cowardly however, as it would take much courage (and propobly selflessness to do something like that, when you have such great powers) to decide to do something as noble as that, particularly because you would never, as you said, be able to achieve an ideal like that in any other way.
    Noble? Selfless?

    Are you SURE those words mean what they think you mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    But everything is better than there simply being nothing ever.
    I can only say I disagree with you on that. I will respect your wish and not further argue about it. Just say, that there are things, like some of those atrocities, that certainly make non-existing better.

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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    Yeah...

    If somone actually did retroactively destroy the universe, I would call them many things. Selfless would not be among them.

    Actually, no, I wouldn't. They just did the equivalent of killing me.

    No, those atrocities only make non-existence better if you view the to be no point to the universe anyway. I believe that there is a point to everything.
    Last edited by horngeek; 2009-09-03 at 09:10 AM.


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    And so it was that Zaeed, Aang, Winry, Ezio, Sadoko and Snow White all set out on their epic journey to destroy The Empire.

    God I love Exalted.


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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    Undoing the universe has its perks, but waiting for it to achieve heat death is a lot easier. And then, you have the assurance that not only is everything ever over, but nothing will ever happen again.
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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    Mr. Silver: Wasn't your degree in philosophy? It'd certainly explain why you're able to disprove Ichneumon step by step while the majority of us are just sputtering out the refutation and the conclusion
    I'm studying philosophy, yes. I appreciate your comment, although I'm really only elaborating on what other people have said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichneumon View Post
    It does seem interesting that logic would lead to such a strange ironic ethical conclusion, however I see no inconsistency in it.
    I know you don't, but that doesn't mean its consistant. Most people suffering from delusions (i.e. beliefs which are not true) will still remain adamantly convinced of the validity of these delusions even when presented with evidence to the contrary and shown the flaws and contradictions within their own reasoning. A strong belief is like that, it makes it harder to accept things that conflict with it.

    For one other conflict, you claim thar making a decision for someone else without their consent is wrong (it's using someone as an ends). Yet, if you were to awake with the originally mentioned chronomatic powers you would unmake everyone without giving a thought for their own opinion. Indeed the unmaking of everyone not in a state of unbearable suffering would be using them as a means to your own end.

    I am not sure why I would believe I am less likely to be right depending on how much other people share that same opinion. My moral conclusions are based on deduction mostly, which you could call "logical", at least when you agree some people might disagree about what the axioms are.
    The reason why it's so incredibly important is that you're basing your logic on this assumption: the suffering of humanity is too great to live with. Suffering however is a relative phenomenon. This is indisputable, like all emotional states sensitivity too it and tolerance of it vary between each individual personality. If you were making a claim about the empircal existence of a particular object or similar then yes, majority opinion is irrelevent. Your reasoning however is based upon an assumption made about the emotional condition of the majority. For this to have any weight at all you need to have some idea of what this condition is which you very clearly don't. In fact, you don't even seem to care about it.


    That's also quite ironic, as my drive for preventing suffering and therefore preventing the creation of the univerise are only driven by a care for the well being of others.
    That doesn't make it any less irrational. Your entire thought process here is based on several flawed assumptions. You have an impossibly perfect ideal model of reality which you consider to be absolutely the only bearable one and that any deviation from it is completely flawed beyond all possible salvaging. You make claims about the state of the majority to justify your conlusion but when said majority disagrees about your claim you ignore their protestation and tout your absolutism as if it were some higher truth. You dismiss flaws in your reasoning as being nothing more than 'amusing ironies'.

    This is not a rational way of thinking.

    Well, you are right that it is about not wanting to be responsible for the creation of a non ideal world.
    No it isn't. Allow me to quote your first post
    If you would awake tomorrow with the chronomanctic powers to undo everything, EVERYTHING, the entire univerise and make sure it never got into existence.
    That isn't a responsibility for its creation. That is a responsibility for its continued exsitence. You aren't creating it. You aren't involved in creating it, you just happen to have the power to destroy it.
    Last edited by Mr.Silver; 2009-09-03 at 09:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    The reason why it's so incredibly important is that you're basing your logic on this assumption: the suffering of humanity is too great to live with. Suffering however is a relative phenomenon. This is indisputable, like all emotional states sensitivity too it and tolerance of it vary between each individual personality. If you were making a claim about the empircal existence of a particular object or similar then yes, majority opinion is irrelevent. Your reasoning however is based upon an assumption made about the emotional condition of the majority. For this to have any weight at all you need to have some idea of what this condition is which you very clearly don't. In fact, you don't even seem to care about it.
    Why do you think I care about the majority? I've only ever said that whether or not the majority suffer or not is irrelevant, as long as 1 individual will suffer because of an action, it would not be preferable above non-existment. The facts are rather simple: If the universe exists: some suffer, if it doesn't: none suffer. Whether or not it is to the benefit or not of the majority to exist, is in my view irrelevant as causing suffering is something you morally just don't do.

    Are you claiming I'm delusional?

    It's an interesting and amusing idea that morality can lead to ironic outcomes, however that doesn't give me any reason to think their is something wrong or flawed about the reasoning per se. You did say some things that are certainly questionable about this reasoning however.

    For one other conflict, you claim thar making a decision for someone else without their consent is wrong (it's using someone as an ends). Yet, if you were to awake with the originally mentioned chronomatic powers you would unmake everyone without giving a thought for their own opinion. Indeed the unmaking of everyone not in a state of unbearable suffering would be using them as a means to your own end.
    This seems indeed to be a flaw. I'm not sure how to respond to this, as that would mean any action whatsoever would be using others as means to an end. I'm not sure what "my own end" would be in it, as I have no interest in undoing the world.

    That isn't a responsibility for its creation. That is a responsibility for its continued exsitence. You aren't creating it. You aren't involved in creating it, you just happen to have the power to destroy it.
    That's a rather good point.

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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    Every time, I lose a little respect...

    No, I wouldn't do it. Why? Cause I'm not a douche, that's why.
    As someone who has suffered, no I would not do it.
    As someone who has seen suffering, no, I would not do it.
    As someone who has, in his life, thought about and at least once mad an attempt at suicide, no. I would not do it.

    As someone who has seen joy, I would not do it. As someone who has seen the joy on the face of a mother holding a laughing baby, I would not do it.

    As someone who has experienced the joy of pleasant human interaction, of owning pets, of doing a double flip into a pool, of the basic pleasure of interaction with the basic physics that govern us, watching a stone bounce down a cliff, watching liquid poured from one container to another, feeling an arrow fly from a bow into a target, who as experienced love both platonic and romantic, physical and purely emotional, and knows that the joy of these things is deeper, stronger, with greater opportunities than sorrow and suffering can ever have, no, I would not do it.

    It's been said a million times in the thread already; the joy of life, in general, outweighs the suffering of existance. This is not something a government tells us, or something television broadcasts through subliminal messaging, it is something we feel and know through experience, so it's not a big conspiricy and we're all deluded into thinking it when really we're all sheep who don't see the big picture and we're obviously morally and logically inferior, no, this is fact.

    I've suffered a lot, sure. Not as much as some, obviously. I've had injuries and torment and pain both physical and emotional. At times, mostly due to chemical imbalances, I've wanted to kill myself to stop experiencing any suffering. I've stopped myself or been stopped each time, obviously, because I'm here to rant at you about this. But to eradicate all of the joy I've experienced, and that I know others have experienced, to be rid of suffering? I'm neither that deluded, that arrogant, or that convinced of my moral superiority.

    Also, the passive-agressiveness in many posts only weaken your argument's persuasiveness. I won't go into what appears to be an attempt at using complex sentence structure and diction for whatever reason.

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    Last edited by Anuan; 2009-09-03 at 10:10 AM.
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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    If I woke up with whatever the powers were called I'd do whatever I could to alleviate suffering without destroying the entire world.

    Ichneumon. destroying the entire world because one person will suffer if you don't is completely illogical and is the exact opposite of any moral system I've ever heard of that makes any sense. Heck if you have the power to destroy the world you probably have the power to alleviate their suffering.

    however. I think an irrevocable truth of life is there are some people you can't help.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2009-09-03 at 10:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    it would depend on how much I was able to undo. if it was undo it all or undo nothing, I'd probably just undo nothing.

    besides, wouldn't technically, if I undid existence, I would also accidentally undo my own? o.o

    anyhoot, if I could undo the existence of some things, I definitely would. but all or nothing, it'd be nothing.
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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    You know what Ichneumon, forget about my earlier post where I said I was concerned for your welfare. In the past several pages it has become clear that you're a egotistic monomaniac unwilling to consider for an instant any viewpoint on the issue contrary to your own. You use flawed, condescending verbiage to attempt to refute others and promote your own irrevocably flawed theory. I fail to understand why you even came here to start this discussion, as it has become increasingly clear that you have no interest in opposing viewpoints. (Unless it was a grab at attention or public mastrubation, in which case: congrats you've succeded in wasting other people's time, good for you.)

    You use terms like logic, morality, causality, and others; but I honestly believe that you have no concept of what these words mean you use them so poorly.

    I've concluded that you're either a very young, very immature individual who has a great deal to still learn and experience in life, or that you're an utterly depraved delusional person who is in a great need of professional help. I hope its the former.

    In closing, I'll leave you with a maxim I learned at a young age: "Some kind of help are the kind of help that helping's all about; and some kinds of help are the kind of help we all can do without."

    Your kind of help is the second kind. You will find no sane person who wants your help in this matter. Not only do I hope you never gain these mythical powers, but I also hope you are never put into a position of authority over any other living thing. Or you know what? Maybe you do need a kid to teach you something about joy, responsibility and fulfillment in life. Then maybe you'll abandon this foolish philosophy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichneumon View Post

    That's also quite ironic, as my drive for preventing suffering and therefore preventing the creation of the univerise are only driven by a care for the well being of others.
    That's it, no cosmic powers for you.

    I have suffered. I was born into poverty, and I have lived in poverty. It was a western poverty, but it was still poverty. I have had pain, raw physcial pain. I have felt fear, panic. I have felt the deep weight of loneliness. I have felt rejection from several sources. I have felt loss and mourning.
    And yet.
    And yet, I have seen beauty. I have been loved, and loved in return. I have felt the exhilaration of accomplishment, the joy of creation. I have felt comfort, contentment, and adoring bliss. I have felt the camaraderie of team work and the satisfaction of a job well done. I have faced fears and come out into sunlight.
    Have I had a happy life, on the whole? So far, no. But you wish to take from me, not only those times of uncertainty and doubt, but also all that which has made it wonderful. If I and the universe had never existed, I never would have seen the play of a brass sunset over rippling lake waters from underneath. A simple thing, yet of captivating wonder, that touched my young soul and said 'This is beauty'.
    Don't take my sunset.
    Last edited by Ravens_cry; 2009-09-03 at 10:54 AM.
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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    I'm not going to continue this discussion. I've not been condescending or insulting, yet in the past view posts, you've been. It was my mistake to believe we could have an philosophical discussion on these boards without accusing others of using "flawed logic" or insulting them. I'm out.

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    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    I have a feeling if I got these powers I'd get on here and ask you all what I should do with them.

    except there are a few things I don't think I'd need to ask about.

    oh. here's my opinion of the world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at_f98qOGY0
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2009-09-03 at 11:35 AM.

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    Dec 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Would you undo the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens_cry View Post
    *snip, and then!*
    Don't take my sunset.
    ...A single manly tear, Raven!
    Regular avatar by Dallas-Dakota.
    -----------
    Regarding mysellf:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Pretty sure that Anuan is the local weapons pro.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mauve Shirt View Post
    Anuan's house is a HOUSE OF DEATH!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas-Dakota View Post
    I'd go to his house and steal all the awesome.
    But I'm afraid I'd accidentally stab myself to death.

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